TheKnowlege
Occasional Visitor
really not a fan of everything being in the cloud..
Fear and Loathing of The Cloud
- Thread starter thiggins
- Start date
Razor512
Very Senior Member
Seems that onlive is finally going under
While their service was largely subscription based, they also offered the option to pay a fixed price for a game, and play it whenever you want from their servers without a monthly fee.
They marketed it as a way to play high end games without a high end PC, and without monthly feed.
Furthermore, the online standalone boxes will also stop functioning (thus, a $100+ paperweight)
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/onlive-sony-patent-portfolio-closing,28878.html
While their service was largely subscription based, they also offered the option to pay a fixed price for a game, and play it whenever you want from their servers without a monthly fee.
They marketed it as a way to play high end games without a high end PC, and without monthly feed.
Furthermore, the online standalone boxes will also stop functioning (thus, a $100+ paperweight)
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/onlive-sony-patent-portfolio-closing,28878.html
YeOldeStonecat
Very Senior Member
The whole term "cloud" got overhyped and mis-used, and as expected..mis-understood by those wearing tin foil hats.
*Security..chances are nearly infinitely times more likely that your personal computer(s)/device(s) will be compromised before the cloud service you are afraid of will be compromised. Home computers typically get an alarmingly high percentage of malware...yes...it's true! And that's the malware you know about..which, is actually the badly written malware, or just name-to-fame malware to boost someones ego or make a point. The GOOD malware...you usually never know you have...because it remains in stealth, hidden, working silently. As for business networks...I'd wager >90% of them are ridden with malware and compromised.
*Cloud services can be useful. "The cloud" doesn't just mean storing data in some big scary offsite location. The Cloud can mean many things, we run quite a few servers that run management services that we utilize as a small business IT consulting/services company. I have virtual servers at RackSpace and Microsoft Azure for example. Those servers have high uptime, don't use electricity at my office, don't add heat to my server room at my office, don't need additional hardware to be refreshed every 5 years, don't need more backup overhead, don't add overhead to my biz fiber connection at my office, don't have to worry if a storm takes down power in my area (I live on the shoreline in New England..it can happen, it has happened..IE Sandy). And they're dirt cheap! I built a linux server up at rackspace to control the many wireless access points we have at clients of ours. We run a spam filtering service to wash our clients e-mail before it gets delivered to their Exchange mail servers onsite...we host that on a linux cloud server. Also we run redundant SMTP servers on cloud servers at various locations for outbound SMTP delivery. We have quite a few cloud hosted services such as that.
*Does anyone here use an e-mail address from their ISP? Or GMail, or Yahoo, or AOL, or <insert tons more domain names>. Those are cloud services. They always have been! These even goes back to the dial up days.
*Security..chances are nearly infinitely times more likely that your personal computer(s)/device(s) will be compromised before the cloud service you are afraid of will be compromised. Home computers typically get an alarmingly high percentage of malware...yes...it's true! And that's the malware you know about..which, is actually the badly written malware, or just name-to-fame malware to boost someones ego or make a point. The GOOD malware...you usually never know you have...because it remains in stealth, hidden, working silently. As for business networks...I'd wager >90% of them are ridden with malware and compromised.
*Cloud services can be useful. "The cloud" doesn't just mean storing data in some big scary offsite location. The Cloud can mean many things, we run quite a few servers that run management services that we utilize as a small business IT consulting/services company. I have virtual servers at RackSpace and Microsoft Azure for example. Those servers have high uptime, don't use electricity at my office, don't add heat to my server room at my office, don't need additional hardware to be refreshed every 5 years, don't need more backup overhead, don't add overhead to my biz fiber connection at my office, don't have to worry if a storm takes down power in my area (I live on the shoreline in New England..it can happen, it has happened..IE Sandy). And they're dirt cheap! I built a linux server up at rackspace to control the many wireless access points we have at clients of ours. We run a spam filtering service to wash our clients e-mail before it gets delivered to their Exchange mail servers onsite...we host that on a linux cloud server. Also we run redundant SMTP servers on cloud servers at various locations for outbound SMTP delivery. We have quite a few cloud hosted services such as that.
*Does anyone here use an e-mail address from their ISP? Or GMail, or Yahoo, or AOL, or <insert tons more domain names>. Those are cloud services. They always have been! These even goes back to the dial up days.
Razor512
Very Senior Member
For email, those are often services which are free to use, and require no direct purchase. I don't really mind that, but what I hate is spending money on a device that is locked to a specific external server where my device is useless without their servers. That is why I argued against the dropcam and other similar products. You pay a high upfront cost, and get poor value ($10 a month just to record 10 days of footage full of compression artifacts).
My main argument for the cloud, is to make products cloud enhanced and not cloud reliant.
For example some IP cameras can be cloud enhanced by allowing local access to the video, thus if a user has their own IP cam DVR server up, then they can directly record from the camera, thus if the company that made it, went out of business, then your product will still work find as long as you choose to use it. Thus the user gets the best of both worlds.
On the other hand, with cloud reliance, you gain all of the additional points of failure that comes with relying on an external server that you do not control. Furthermore, you are taking a gamble on the service staying up for a long as you want to use it.
If the owner of adobe decided that running a cartel was more profitable than running the adobe CC servers, would that mean that photoshop is no longer a good program?
If dropcam went out of business today, would that mean that the video quality that it offers is 100% useless to all people who have it and thus shouldn't even think about using a camera what that level of video quality?
With the cloud, you give up control, you also put your continued use at the mercy of the company.
If you purchased a dropcam today, and 3 months later, they decided to increase the fee for recording from $10 a month, to $50 a month for the same 10 days; what if they did this in addition to removing all free access, thus you have to pay a monthly fee in order to even view your camera? Would you pay, or would you accept having a $200 paperweight?
The issues surrounding cloud, are ones of longevity. If I buy a product, what guarantee that the service costs will not suddenly go up, what guarantee is there that the company will not go out of business while I still want to use the product that I paid good money for?
What if I use a paid cloud service for my business, and my business comes to rely on it, what is stopping the company from deciding that because we are now reliant on their service that we will be more willing to accept an unnecessary price hike?
Think of it like how some mechanic shops function. A repair that would usually cost $200, may become $400+ if they feel that you are desperate for that repair.
If a company feels that your investments are not secure without them, then that is an opening for them to take advantage. Their bargaining chip is that they can pretty much devalue your investment at the drop of a hat.
With cloud enhanced, the customer retains their consumer powers, and ends up with a product that will have a far greater chance at lasting them for as long as they would want to ever use the product.
PS, I have an old analog multimeter from the 50's that still works decades after the company went out of business, if it were a cloud reliant multimeter, then it would have failed the moment the company went out of business. While I don't use it, if I wanted to, I could dig it out of where i stored it in the basement and it will still work.
(how sure can you be that your dropcam (assuming the hardware works), will still have its cloud services 65+ years from now? )
If you move your active directory services to the cloud, and the company that managed it suddenly went out of business. How fast could you have your active directory services back up and running?
My main argument for the cloud, is to make products cloud enhanced and not cloud reliant.
For example some IP cameras can be cloud enhanced by allowing local access to the video, thus if a user has their own IP cam DVR server up, then they can directly record from the camera, thus if the company that made it, went out of business, then your product will still work find as long as you choose to use it. Thus the user gets the best of both worlds.
On the other hand, with cloud reliance, you gain all of the additional points of failure that comes with relying on an external server that you do not control. Furthermore, you are taking a gamble on the service staying up for a long as you want to use it.
If the owner of adobe decided that running a cartel was more profitable than running the adobe CC servers, would that mean that photoshop is no longer a good program?
If dropcam went out of business today, would that mean that the video quality that it offers is 100% useless to all people who have it and thus shouldn't even think about using a camera what that level of video quality?
With the cloud, you give up control, you also put your continued use at the mercy of the company.
If you purchased a dropcam today, and 3 months later, they decided to increase the fee for recording from $10 a month, to $50 a month for the same 10 days; what if they did this in addition to removing all free access, thus you have to pay a monthly fee in order to even view your camera? Would you pay, or would you accept having a $200 paperweight?
The issues surrounding cloud, are ones of longevity. If I buy a product, what guarantee that the service costs will not suddenly go up, what guarantee is there that the company will not go out of business while I still want to use the product that I paid good money for?
What if I use a paid cloud service for my business, and my business comes to rely on it, what is stopping the company from deciding that because we are now reliant on their service that we will be more willing to accept an unnecessary price hike?
Think of it like how some mechanic shops function. A repair that would usually cost $200, may become $400+ if they feel that you are desperate for that repair.
If a company feels that your investments are not secure without them, then that is an opening for them to take advantage. Their bargaining chip is that they can pretty much devalue your investment at the drop of a hat.
With cloud enhanced, the customer retains their consumer powers, and ends up with a product that will have a far greater chance at lasting them for as long as they would want to ever use the product.
PS, I have an old analog multimeter from the 50's that still works decades after the company went out of business, if it were a cloud reliant multimeter, then it would have failed the moment the company went out of business. While I don't use it, if I wanted to, I could dig it out of where i stored it in the basement and it will still work.
(how sure can you be that your dropcam (assuming the hardware works), will still have its cloud services 65+ years from now? )
If you move your active directory services to the cloud, and the company that managed it suddenly went out of business. How fast could you have your active directory services back up and running?
Why would you even want to be using 65 year old tech?
YeOldeStonecat
Very Senior Member
Some concerns you have I would certainly agree are valid.
My answer to those, be smart with what you choose. I am looking at cloud services from the point of view of someone who provides IT services for SMBs. I choose partners that are here to stay. I think we would all feel comfortable betting our retirement on "Microsoft is here to stay, they will not fold or go away". I also chose other big partners that are here to stay...RackSpace is one of the big originals golden oldie grandaddys as far as data centers..they aren't going anywhere. We use (and love) Datto Backup for disaster recovery/business continuity for our clients.
Microsofts Office 365 isn't going anywhere. The "Recurring Revenue" model came to other industries a long time ago, it's here to stay. Computer services recently hopped on this recurring revenue model also..clearly seen by Microsoft retiring their well known Small Business Server lineup and pushing O365. It's not going anywhere..it's here to stay. And it's actually quite cost effective for clients....versus supporting a hefty local server infrastructure.
I have the same warm 'n fuzzy feeling about their Azure active directory services....it's not going anywhere..it's here to stay. I don't mind clients AD being in the cloud. (or ours for that matter..we run a hybrid from our office).
Services like dropcam....yeah I too would wonder how long they'd be around..they're an el cheapo residential grade indoor camera. I wouldn't touch one. I also likely would not use a cloud hosted NVR.....that may be a viable option for a non-tech family, but for me...streaming video...I've built my own NVRs for the Ubiquiti system we have in our office, and prefer to leave business level ones to that...or other ones such as Honeywell..that proxy the video streaming right to the NVR through their web proxy service and excellent viewing apps for smart phones. Honeywell isn't going anywhere..I would not worry about them folding.
Cloud Backup? Clients want it. It's here to stay. Offsite backup, ability to spool up virtualized servers offsite from those backups..those are key to disaster recovery/business continuity and HIPAA compliance for many clients of ours. We used to roll our own backup and host it in our server room/mini data center....but I no longer wanted to "own" the liability of hosting that a few years ago as privacy concerns grew, and HIPAA stuff starting gaining traction. Redundant locations, secured monitored server rooms, backup generator, redundant internet connections, refreshing server hardware every 5 years, maintaining the NAS pools. It got too expensive..and overwhelming. Much easier..and of course...much much much more profitable....to resell that service from a cloud hosted place. Hence why we moved to Datto...one of the best, and one of our most profitable services.
I too miss the days of big server install projects....and making tons of money on the consulting/install/setup fees....like 5,000 or 7,500 or 10,000 bucks for big server migrations. Got used to eating nice thick steaks every day of the week. But like Clint Eastwood said in his little known Heartbreak Ridge movie..."Adapt..and Overcome!" Cloud is here to stay...I've got to find ways to make a profit from it and keep eating steak dinners! There are ways to use it, reliably, and with economic benefit.
My answer to those, be smart with what you choose. I am looking at cloud services from the point of view of someone who provides IT services for SMBs. I choose partners that are here to stay. I think we would all feel comfortable betting our retirement on "Microsoft is here to stay, they will not fold or go away". I also chose other big partners that are here to stay...RackSpace is one of the big originals golden oldie grandaddys as far as data centers..they aren't going anywhere. We use (and love) Datto Backup for disaster recovery/business continuity for our clients.
Microsofts Office 365 isn't going anywhere. The "Recurring Revenue" model came to other industries a long time ago, it's here to stay. Computer services recently hopped on this recurring revenue model also..clearly seen by Microsoft retiring their well known Small Business Server lineup and pushing O365. It's not going anywhere..it's here to stay. And it's actually quite cost effective for clients....versus supporting a hefty local server infrastructure.
I have the same warm 'n fuzzy feeling about their Azure active directory services....it's not going anywhere..it's here to stay. I don't mind clients AD being in the cloud. (or ours for that matter..we run a hybrid from our office).
Services like dropcam....yeah I too would wonder how long they'd be around..they're an el cheapo residential grade indoor camera. I wouldn't touch one. I also likely would not use a cloud hosted NVR.....that may be a viable option for a non-tech family, but for me...streaming video...I've built my own NVRs for the Ubiquiti system we have in our office, and prefer to leave business level ones to that...or other ones such as Honeywell..that proxy the video streaming right to the NVR through their web proxy service and excellent viewing apps for smart phones. Honeywell isn't going anywhere..I would not worry about them folding.
Cloud Backup? Clients want it. It's here to stay. Offsite backup, ability to spool up virtualized servers offsite from those backups..those are key to disaster recovery/business continuity and HIPAA compliance for many clients of ours. We used to roll our own backup and host it in our server room/mini data center....but I no longer wanted to "own" the liability of hosting that a few years ago as privacy concerns grew, and HIPAA stuff starting gaining traction. Redundant locations, secured monitored server rooms, backup generator, redundant internet connections, refreshing server hardware every 5 years, maintaining the NAS pools. It got too expensive..and overwhelming. Much easier..and of course...much much much more profitable....to resell that service from a cloud hosted place. Hence why we moved to Datto...one of the best, and one of our most profitable services.
I too miss the days of big server install projects....and making tons of money on the consulting/install/setup fees....like 5,000 or 7,500 or 10,000 bucks for big server migrations. Got used to eating nice thick steaks every day of the week. But like Clint Eastwood said in his little known Heartbreak Ridge movie..."Adapt..and Overcome!" Cloud is here to stay...I've got to find ways to make a profit from it and keep eating steak dinners! There are ways to use it, reliably, and with economic benefit.
Razor512
Very Senior Member
I wouldn't, but it is impossible to give an exact number of years, and the issue is that will the number of years you ultimately choose be the same or less than the number of years they (the cloud service) choose?
Last edited:
htismaqe
Very Senior Member
It's not just cloud, it's digital transactions of any sort. What happens when you buy DRM-signed music from XYZ Company and 2 years later, they go out of business and their DRM stops working?
I like have physical copies of my stuff, whether it's servers, CDs, or whatever. That doesn't mean the cloud can't augment what I'm already doing. I just don't want to be 100% dependent on it.
I like have physical copies of my stuff, whether it's servers, CDs, or whatever. That doesn't mean the cloud can't augment what I'm already doing. I just don't want to be 100% dependent on it.
YeOldeStonecat
Very Senior Member
Same thing I did when Fiat bought Chrysler....my HEMI powered RAM 1500 custom sport pickup still started up and got me to work the next day..and the day after..and so on and so forth...
Corporate giants that eat up each other in the IT world don't squash products and services...they maintain them.
RMerlin
Asuswrt-Merlin dev
Alphabet, owning both Google and Microsoft, running both of them in parallel? That'd be a scary thought (one that would never fly with the SEC or any other regulatory body wanting to prevent any monopolistic situation).
Since when did the US SEC care diddly squat about anti-trust? Was it 1938?
Too many of them are on the take.
htismaqe
Very Senior Member
As someone who has worked on a few high profile M&A cases, I can say this is definitely not always true.
RMerlin
Asuswrt-Merlin dev
Crossloop comes to mind here. I was often using it with customers. AVG bought them, and later on, with no advance warning, they terminated both free AND paid services. It was pretty brutal.
Agree. I've been on a few "due diligence tech committe" reviews for biggies.
I say the overriding issue is if the rent-a-CEO of the to be acquired company will get his incentive bonus to find a buyer and consummate a deal. Lipstick on a pig is the rule. I've also seen the acquiring-company's CEO let his ego run amok and install his minions in newco, and they slash and burn without understanding much.
htismaqe
Very Senior Member
From my own experience, this is the rule, not the exception.
YeOldeStonecat
Very Senior Member
Well..we'll have to agree to disagree. Doing this (SMB IT services) about 20 years... I havnt seen any important services totally killed/squashed (sat and paused for a few moments to try to remember but cannot recall a single case where I've had to hand tissues to clients because some IT service pulled the carpet out from under them and lost their data).
Someone mentioned Crossloop above...but that is not what I will call a major, "big name" IT service. It was a quick rise, popup made to be sold, crappy service. And appropriately..one of the worst names in the AV industry (AVG) bought them up...they deserve each other. Both of those company names are products I would never...ever have associated myself with. And steer clients far away from.
Stick with big Tier-1 brands...and you don't see all this panic.
Example....HP buying up Compaq. Sure it created ripples in the residential computer world...but that's not my concern, I'm business IT services, our concern is "business desktops" and "servers". Compaq DeskPro/Evo business desktops were kept alive by HP under the Elite line...still the same great product. Compaqs ProLiant servers are still kept alive by HP under the same name.
Last edited:
htismaqe
Very Senior Member
I could list a half dozen services that ceased to exist in my own company post-merger. Not everybody does it but it's not uncommon either. And when you say stick with the Tier 1 brands, that's who I'm talking about. I've worked on M&A deal for some highly recognizable names in the industry. And I've seen what some enterprises would call "essential services" go the way of the dodo after a merger (or even a C-level housecleaning).
Similar threads
Latest threads
-
DDNS, AX86U-PRO, inadyn isn't called after wan IP change ?
- Started by JackJack
- Replies: 1
-
-
Accidentally flashed XT12 latest merlin on a ET12 Asus Zenwifi Pro. Can't flash back stock FW.
- Started by zapahacks
- Replies: 3
-
-
Sign Up For SNBForums Daily Digest
Get an update of what's new every day delivered to your mailbox. Sign up here!