UPS advice for NAS & desktop

Hi!

First of all if this post is in the wrong part of the forum then I would appreciate it if it could be moved to the correct part, I think it would be suitable here but I might have missed a certain sub-forum. If you know a forum that would be more suitable for this question then I am grateful for advice as well.

I currently have:
Asustor AS-5004T NAS
A desktop computer w. i5 4690K / GTX 970 / EVGA Supernova G2 750W PSU

My goal is to have a UPS that will protect the above against power outages (and enough time to perform a "safe" shutdown of the NAS and desktop) and other power fluctuations (brownouts/"dips" etc.).

Now I read (as I understand it) that my NAS can be a "network UPS server" and that I would connect the sole USB-port of the UPS to my NAS and my NAS would then tell my desktop having installed "WinNUT" on it to perform a "safe shutdown":
http://support.asustor.com/index.ph...to-configure-my-pc-as-network-ups-clientslave

Desktop: 220-230W
Monitor: 34W
NAS: 31W
Switch: 6W
= 301W

Now I might want to overclock my desktop (CPU and/or GPU) in the future so lets say a total draw of 400W (unsure how much the power consumption will go up for the CPU/GPU when OC:ing) to be sure.

The thing is I asked about this earlier in a Swedish forum (Sweclockers) and was recommended a UPS with a total of 1200W / VI2000, it seemed a bit steep in regards to my current draw but I don't really know how to calculate how much battery life I would get etc. so it might be correct?

Also I read about that some PSU:s are quite strict about how the UPS "outputs" the sine wave, a UPS I was recommended and thinking about, the PowerWalker VI 2000 LCD seems to be using a modified sine wave and don't know if my PSU (EVGA Supernova G2 750W) would object to that or not?

Link to UPS:
http://www.powerwalker.com/datasheet/Line-Interactive/PowerWalker VI 2000 LCD.pdf

Very grateful for any and all recommendations and help / TheSwede86
P.S Well as the name implies - I live in Sweden (Europe) so would need something that works here and pref. that is listed as compatible here:
http://www.asustor.com/service/ups?id=ups

Yes, if you buy a UPS from APC or Cyberpower it likely will work with quality NASes. As to sending out on the LAN power failure messages with winNUT - that's possible but problematic due to the authors' anti-windows philosophy.
The standards for USB messaging on UPSes isn't good. So beware other than a very few name brands and look at the NAS vendor's compatible product list.

Mine is a 1500VA UPS (Cyberpower) and it feeds my NAS, ethernet switches, router, modem, digital phone modem, digital phone in office, desktop PC.

stevech said:

Yes, if you buy a UPS from APC or Cyberpower it likely will work with quality NASes. As to sending out on the LAN power failure messages with winNUT - that's possible but problematic due to the authors' anti-windows philosophy.
The standards for USB messaging on UPSes isn't good. So beware other than a very few name brands and look at the NAS vendor's compatible product list.

Mine is a 1500VA UPS (Cyberpower) and it feeds my NAS, ethernet switches, router, modem, digital phone modem, digital phone in office, desktop PC.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply, do you have any idea of how much all together your total draw is (the total amount of wattage) on the UPS?
Also in regards to the question above, can you tell me how much battery life you have if you were to have a total power outage?

The NAS I was thinking about only have 2x Schuko and 2x IEC, I know there are adapters for IEC to Schuko but then it only leaves me with 4x Schuko.
1x Monitor, 1x Desktop, 1x NAS, 1x Switch and would need one extra for my router and pref. one more for my printer as well.
Is it possible to connect a power strip to a UPS in order to get more outlets (as long as you don't go bananas and connect 3-4 desktops on one power strip which is in turn fed by one of the UPS:es power outlets?

Yes, the total load is displayed on the UPS's LCD. It's about 30% of the 1500VA capacity most of the time. That's a $150 UPS.
I don't want 2+ UPSes!
power strip - sure. I have one in my office that goes through the wall to the garage where the UPS is.

I probably have 8 or 10 things plugged into the protected outlets on the UPS.


what's a Schuko?

stevech said:

Yes, the total load is displayed on the UPS's LCD. It's about 30% of the 1500VA capacity most of the time. That's a $150 UPS.
I don't want 2+ UPSes!
power strip - sure. I have one in my office that goes through the wall to the garage where the UPS is.

I probably have 8 or 10 things plugged into the protected outlets on the UPS.


what's a Schuko?

Click to expand...

A Schuko is a name of a power socket, we either have those here in Sweden (and connectors that are round and fit in them and that are grounded) or these (Europlug) kinds of connectors/cables which are not grounded/earthed. Our power sockets are almost always of the first kind which accepts both the "Schuko"-kind and the "Europlug"-kind.

Anyways my computer (PSU) and monitor uses the "Schuko"-variant and my NAS/Switch/Router uses the "Europlug" but the UPS I linked to only have 2x Schuko and 2x IEC.
I'm guessing I will run a cable from the computer (PSU) and monitor directly to the IEC-connectors and that leaves me with 2x Schuko and I would pref. need 4 - switch , router, printer and speakers.

Guessing I will be using two power strips as you do. In regards to your desktop PC, what are your specs? Is it a gaming computer that draws a lot of power or is it a desktop which is quite power efficient? Trying to gauge how much wattage and VA I need from the UPS.

Edit:
There seem to be IEC to Schuko adapters but the desktop and monitor should plug into the IEC-connectors just fine since there are cables included with the UPS for exactly that.

My desktop PC is an Intel quad I5 3.3GHz. Not a hot gaming PC. The 24 inch LCD monitor is also on the UPS. Don't overlook getting the router and all LAN gear on the UPS too. I have a digital phone modem and it's on the UPS.

Just buy an APC or Cyberpower UPS with 1200, 1500VAC capacity and don't worry whether the PC uses 30W of 90W. It's a nit.
Make sure your NAS claims compatibility with the UPS of choice.

stevech said:

My desktop PC is an Intel quad I5 3.3GHz. Not a hot gaming PC. The 24 inch LCD monitor is also on the UPS. Don't overlook getting the router and all LAN gear on the UPS too. I have a digital phone modem and it's on the UPS.

Just buy an APC or Cyberpower UPS with 1200, 1500VAC capacity and don't worry whether the PC uses 30W of 90W. It's a nit.
Make sure your NAS claims compatibility with the UPS of choice.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I am actually now thinking of running everything on the UPS, the "sad" part is that my printer (Samsung SCX-3205W) seems to hog "less then 270W" during operations but in "ready-mode" it seems to draw around 36W. So "worst case" scenario if the printer is running under load and everything else is as well is a total draw of around 600W (computer,monitor,nas,switch,router,printer). Will be sure to run my ethernet cable from the connector in my wall (where I get Internet) to the UPS and then to the router, too bad the UPS does not support coaxial cables (for the TV).

I've emailed Bluewalker and if they don't see a problem with my setup and usage then I'll "pull the trigger" on the UPS.

Thanks for your help, appreciated

Really bad idea to run any laser printer off a UPS. While the indicated usage (less than 270W) may seem within the capabilities of the UPS, it is ignoring the high instantaneous load that a laser printer places on the power supply when initially turned on or when woken up.

Even if Bluewalker suggests otherwise, do not plug in your printer to the UPS.

L&LD said:

Really bad idea to run any laser printer off a UPS. While the indicated usage (less than 270W) may seem within the capabilities of the UPS, it is ignoring the high instantaneous load that a laser printer places on the power supply when initially turned on or when woken up.

Even if Bluewalker suggests otherwise, do not plug in your printer to the UPS.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the tip, would never have thought that otherwise.
Is this true even for quite modern printers for home-use (i.e. not big bulky office-printers)?

Btw I actually had a power outage today My printer was off when I came home and my router's LED:s were blinking (they are normally off even though the router is on) and sure enough, my NAS reported a 4h runtime (where it was around 4 days before that). The disks (in the NAS) seems to be OK but still... Hopefully I'll get this with the UPS sorted soon and can install one.

I don't run my inkjet on the UPS.
The UPS when on battery has a simulated sine wave and a few persnickety devices, esp. motors, don't like it.

stevech said:

I don't run my inkjet on the UPS.
The UPS when on battery has a simulated sine wave and a few persnickety devices, esp. motors, don't like it.

Click to expand...

Did not know that, thank you.
Will be sure not to run my printer on the UPS even if Bluewalker says otherwise.

The UPS you are looking at should give you run times at different power draws.

I haven't had any issues with mine (a cyberpower 350va model, my needs are modest at only roughly 70w of peak draw on my server and two switches I am powering off it. Typical draw is more around 45w, which gives me about 75 minutes of power. About 3.5hrs if I power off the server and I am only running my two switches off of it. About 8hrs if I am powering only my core switch).

MOST, though certainly not all, you are probably looking at 3-6 minutes of power at 50-75% of maximum power draw on the UPS. At least until you are looking at very large and expensive UPSs. Since they are lead acid based, figure roughly a tripling of runtime for every halving of power draw (because internal resistance of a lead acid battery drops as the current draw is reduced. So pull juice out of one slower, the more overall juice you can get out of one). So drop from something like 50% power draw with 5 minutes of run time, to 25% power draw, and you'll likely get in the 15 minute range. Drop from 25% to 12.5% and you'll probably get around 45 minutes, and so on. There is of course a lower floor as most UPS have a base power useage in the range of 2-15 watts (for "consumer" sized simulated sine wave and pure sine wave. The pure sine wave and full time conditioning UPS have higher base power draws than simulated sine wave and standby UPS do).

My suggestion is to double up on your requirement. If you are drawing around 350w and might go up around 400w some day, get at least an 800w UPS. That will likely give you at least 5-10 minutes of run time in a worst case and possibly closer to 20-40 minutes if your desktop is running at idle.

I am running a UPS for my router and for my core switches/server respectively. Mostly just to keep power drop outs from messing me up (I get them pretty frequently where I live). That and just enough power the rare time I have a full blown power outage to walk out to my garage, grab my genny, push it out the door, plug it in, fire it up and then walk down to my basement and flip over my circuits to generator power. Call it 3 minutes if I am in a hurry, 10 minutes if I am being lazy and waiting to see if it was a 5 minute power outage or looking like it was going to be longer. I do really need to get a UPS for my entertainment center as well as my desktop, mostly for power dropout reasons. The router and server/switches I do want to have a few hours of power when possible in case I cannot setup my generator (currently the electrical box is under my deck and my cable is short enough I can't realistically run the generator in particularly bad weather). Though I also need a UPS for my ONT box too at some point (since Verizon in their infinite wisdom only allow 10 minutes of UPS power for the tv and internet functions of the ONT to maximum phone power. News flash Verizon, the power draw difference is minimal. If you left it enabled, you could get about 15hrs of everything...or 16hrs of just phone SMH).

azazel1024 said:

Post

Click to expand...

Thanks for your post.
Yeah I think I'll do that and then some (double up on what my total load draw is going to be)
With a backup generator no less? Impressive but guessing since you have servers you might need it.

---

Thanks again all people who have answered, appreciate it.
I actually got a response from Bluewalker!
A real long informative reply which addressed my questions, quite rare to find a company which take their time to give a personal answer and just to your specific questions and not just copy-paste some FAQ or give you a link.
Anyway they recommended another UPS instead due to my PSU (EVGA SuperNova G2 750W) being APFC (Active Power Factor Correction) and that the other UPS they recommended would be more suited for it since it runs a pure sine wave and the one I thought of earlier had a simulated sine wave. They distinctly told me to NOT run a printer etc. on a UPS.

Bluewalker PowerWalker VI 1500T/HID, 1500VA / 900W, pure sine wave (around €240)
Link (PDF)
Also the USB-port is "HID"-compatible which should warrant better compability with devices

Bluewalker PowerWalker VI 2000 LCD, 2000VA / 1200W, modified sine wave (around €170)
Link (PDF)

The price difference is negligible, I have already way overshot what I thought I would be spending on a UPS so better to buy something recommended and that will be good for years to come.
The total amount of electronics it will protect is for around €2,100 so to spend around 10% of the sum protecting my investments and data ("priceless") seems fair.

Edit:

Oh forgot something, the one real bad thing about the new UPS is that it only has "IEC"-connectors. The only thing I can plug into an "IEC"-connector is my desktop and my monitor, I then have to buy adapters from "IEC" to "Schuko" in order to use power strips or connect my other devices directly to the UPS.

Beware buying other than APC or Cyberpower.
Never heard of Bluewalker.
Be sure that the make/model you choose is on the compatible-product-list of your NAS - with the UPS's USB cable connecting the UPS to the NAS.

A 1500VA UPS should be fine for home/SOHO and in the US, it's $150 or so.

stevech said:

Beware buying other than APC or Cyberpower.
Never heard of Bluewalker.
Be sure that the make/model you choose is on the compatible-product-list of your NAS - with the UPS's USB cable connecting the UPS to the NAS.

A 1500VA UPS should be fine for home/SOHO and in the US, it's $150 or so.

Click to expand...

I asked Bluewalker about that and they didn't say anything about compatibility other then that I mentioned which NAS I had , regarding the USB this UPS seems to have some sort of special "HID"-USB which should be more generic and compatible then their other models. Bluewalker Powerwalker VI 1500 is listed as compatible on Asustor's homepage but the specific T/HID isn't listed. Emailed Asustor as well just to be sure about compatibility.

"A HID compatible USB port allows monitoring basic UPS status on Windows,
Mac OS, Linux systems without installing additional software.
HID Power Devices are supported by computer OS’s internal power
management originally. "

HID = Human Interface Device in USB jargon - rooted at Microsoft. Usually refers to keyboard, mouse, etc.
HID alone doesn't mean much - it's like the envelope for data, not the (UPS power fail/status) data itself.
A problem with UPSes is the lack of real or defacto standards on what data is in the HID packets.
I think compatibility has gotten better, but lots of NAS users have trouble with their NAS Linux drivers and these semi-standards. UPS to Windows PC or maybe Mac OS as well - is less a problem than Linux.

Hence, the advise to go with one of the 2 or 3 most widely sold vendor products.
As before, I recommend APC or Cyberpower to keep risk low.

stevech said:

HID = Human Interface Device in USB jargon - rooted at Microsoft. Usually refers to keyboard, mouse, etc.
HID alone doesn't mean much - it's like the envelope for data, not the (UPS power fail/status) data itself.
A problem with UPSes is the lack of real or defacto standards on what data is in the HID packets.
I think compatibility has gotten better, but lots of NAS users have trouble with their NAS Linux drivers and these semi-standards. UPS to Windows PC or maybe Mac OS as well - is less a problem than Linux.

Hence, the advise to go with one of the 2 or 3 most widely sold vendor products.
As before, I recommend APC or Cyberpower to keep risk low.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.

Yeah I know that HID stands for HumanInterfaceDevice but I actually didn't know that it was only the envelope for the data and the data in turn that transfers could have different standards (in "non-HID" devices I figured as much but not when they seemed to mention "HID"-USB as a USP for their UPS, hehe). You learn something every day, thank you

The thing is even though I earlier said that I didn't mind the price difference between the two Bluewalker UPS:es (which was true) the step up to a similar UPS from Cyberpower / APC is a bit more money. I first started out thinking that 1000SEK was steep, then I saw the one I first linked to for 1600SEK and now I am pretty set on the one they (Bluewalker) recommended for 2300SEK (1000SEK = $115 / €105).

Cyberpower do have these two:
CyberPower Value VALUE1500EILCD (1500VA / 900W, simulated sine wave) for around 2400SEK
CyberPower Value VALUE2200EILCD (2200VA/ 1260W, simulated sine wave) for around 2800SEK

Contacted EVGA in regards to the PSU and which UPS to use (if the sine wave matters) and they have escalated it up their tech support since they couldn't answer it directly.
Will contact Cyberpower and see what they say in regards to the PSU as well.

The thing is that in Sweden due to the fact we have a stabile power grid, the market for consumer UPS:es isn't huge. A few vendors carry different UPS:es and they often mirror their suppliers inventory and the ones that are out there are for companies and they tend to cost a lot.

Well, in my case it is because even though I have a generator, until I rewire the run to the generator panel, I cannot use it in bad weather. At least where I am, hurricanes and tropical storms aren't super common (central Maryland), but we DO occasionally get them. More common are things like a severe summer thunderstorm or icy rain that might take down wires. I don't HAVE to run my server and switches during it, but I'd like the option that if I need to pull data off my server, that I have enough power that I can pull it up and get whatever I want off of/on to my server. A couple of mintues isn't going to really be sufficient for that. An hour+ more than certainly is. More important to me is just having short term power protection on a lot of stuff.

Especially my entertainment stuff. I could care less about the TV, but my DVR is the HEIGHT of annoyance if the power drops out for even a second. It takes about 3 minutes to fully reboot, then if you were watching something recorded you have to restart it and its about 50/50 odds that it "lost" its place and it resumes a few minutes prior to where you were actually watching. Since on high wind days the odds are decent that the power will drop out 2-4 times over an hour, this can be REALLY annoying.

In the couple of years I have been living where I am, we've lost power once for about 40hrs (ice storm), once for about 40 minutes, twice for about 10 minutes, maybe half a dozen times for about 2-3 minutes and probably 100 times for less than 10 seconds. On the later, half of those have been that it just dropped out for anything from 1-10 seconds just once in an entire day. The other half of the times, it was 3-6 times in a single day, generally clustered in a 1-2hr period.

The wonders of living in a semi-rural area.

So I could care less about runninng most of my stuff for long, just keeping it powered for those <1 minute power outages really. 5-10 minutes of run time of run time would certainly be nice, as that would cover the vast majority of outages. My router and ONT I want to be able to stay up for at least 8hrs, preferably more like 12-16hrs. Just on the off chance I get a prolonged outage during bad weather (can't hook my generator up in a torrential downpour, though I can run it in my garage with the garage door cracked open to prevent CO poisoning, but that still requires snaking an extension cord in to the house and plugging it in to one or two things. A real pain. I can't hook it in to the generator panel to power the ~50% of the house circuits that are setup to run off generator power). The server and switch I just want enough power to gracefully power them off and if I need something, power them back up and pull it off the server. Example, prolonged power outage where I can't plug the generator in, grab a movie off the server to load on my laptop or my tablet to try to keep my kids entertained.

Ever think of putting the DVR on a $75 UPS? I did that.

stevech said:

Ever think of putting the DVR on a $75 UPS? I did that.

Click to expand...

It is what I am looking at doing. I just need to scare up the spare funds. Right now I am committed on a couple of house and yard projects, plus I am starting to be in need of more storage for my desktop, server and I need a real back-up to both to back-up everything (only my documents, pics, applications and music are backed up across my desktop, server and external HDD and that 640GB drive is down to about 30GB free. I need to also back-up my video collection to an external drive).

So it is going to have to sadly continue to wait.