Networking over Home Coax. Infra.

I've long used a MoCA device connected to a low cost Ethernet switch. The TV, DVD, and other items plug into the switch. At times, I have plugged a WiFi access point into the switch.

jalyst said:

After perusing the SNB site, news about MoCa seems quite sparse, let alone reviews...
And there seems to be no comparative charts at all, unlike with the HomePlug devices...

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HomePlug runs over powerlines, which are a noisy and uncontrolled medium. The comparative charts tell us how well the HomePlug handles actual conditions in a particular house.

MoCA runs over coaxial cables, which are a shielded medium with very little noise. The MoCA adapters should always reach full speed, unless the coax cable is defective or there is a frequency collision.

MoCA 2.0 uses one or two blocks of 100 MHz, between 500 MHz and 1650 MHz. Whatever frequencies your cable system is operating over, it's very likely that there will be 100 MHz of unoccupied spectrum within that range.

thoma said:

HomePlug runs over powerlines, which are a noisy and uncontrolled medium. The comparative charts tell us how well the HomePlug handles actual conditions in a particular house. MoCA runs over coaxial cables, which are a shielded medium with very little noise. The MoCA adapters should always reach full speed, unless the coax cable is defective or there is a frequency collision..

Click to expand...

Yep, I know that...

MoCA 2.0 uses one or two blocks of 100 MHz, between 500 MHz and 1650 MHz. Whatever frequencies your cable system is operating over, it's very likely that there will be 100 MHz of unoccupied spectrum within that range.

Click to expand...

I didn't know that...

@Everyone/Anyone
Please see my post below for the main points/Qns (they're in red) to quote & address.

CaptainSTX said:

In the US UHF is broadcast on Channels 14-83 which translates into 470 - 890 Mhz. MOCA has been developed to coexist on the same Coaxial cables that CATV uses which are the frequencies up to 900 Mhz. MOCA normally uses the frequencies above 1000 Mhz. The Actiontec adapters that I have operate at 1100 Mhz. Given the above you should have no problems with frequency interference. Just be sure that your fittings are tight, your cable splitters are rated for 2 Ghz or better and that you try and avoid multiple splitters in any cable run and that you try to avoid using splitter with four or more ports.

Click to expand...

thoma said:

UHF television tops out at channel 51 in the United States, which goes up to 698 MHz. Channels 52-83 have been reallocated for other purposes. MoCA can operate as low as 500 MHz, in order to offer the option of coexisting with satellite TV. However, the MoCA adapters that are designed to coexist with cable TV will operate above 1 GHz. This also means that they coexist with broadcast TV. For example, the spec sheet for the Actiontec ECB2500C, which the OP was considering, is listed as operating over 1125-1525 MHz: http://www.actiontec.com/products/datasheets/EthCoaxMoCAadptr_2500c_ds3.pdf (PDF)

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azazel1024 said:

Keep in mind, they are repurposed, but they ARE in use. If you are pulling OTA, the antenna is going to be picking up signals in that range if you have a UHF or a combined VHF/UHF antenna. It doesn't matter if you want to view those channels or not. That said, the MoCA bridges are likely to be much stronger than the signal on the wire from an OTA antenna. So for the bridges themselves, it likely won't be an issue and since you don't care about watching channels that don't exist, you are probably fine.

Click to expand...

These 3 posts are quite illuminating, but they also raise Qns for those in nations that don't use the US standards:

I have a UHF (VHF too IIRC?) antenna mounted on my house, & IIRC it's split into 2 runs: one that terminates in the TV room upstairs, & another which terminates in a TV room downstairs. This is for OTA viewing, IIRC we used it for a short time once we built this house (~13yrs ago), before switching to cable TV.

I also have a completely sep. run of coax cabling (pretty sure it's not connected to our OTA coaxial cabling -surely that'd make no sense!?), it comes from an entry point into our house & terminates in the TV room upstairs, & then continues on to the TV room downstairs. Both terminations ultimately connect to 2 STB's supplied by our cable TV provider (Foxtel), I vaguely recall the one downstairs being a "slave" to the one upstairs, but that's by no means a definite. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure both terminations are part of "one & the same" loop, i.e. they're not 2 entirely separate coax runs from 1st the entry point into the house.

There's a 3rd run, which I think is split at the "MDF" (or whatever the main comms box at the entry point of the house is called), it's only very short, terminates, & the cable from that termination goes into our DOCSIS x.x MODEM.

Our standards are slightly different in Australia, e.g. the terrestrial broadcast standard we use is "DVB-T" not ATSC, I think our cable internet it somewhat similar, but our cable TV is "DVB-C".

(1)
Any idea what frequencies we use here for UHF, if our UHF frequencies are quite a bit higher, it could prevent MoCa adapters from performing optimally (or at all), no? Perhaps we have slightly different MoCA or "MoCa-like" adapters to accommodate for that?

UPDATE: Looking here it seems that all Australasian VHF/UHF doesn't hit 900mhz or higher. And if what I've read others say is correct, generally MoCa doesn't kick-in till about 900mhz, it can go down to ~500mhz but generally it's 900mhz+, right? So on our OTA coax run at least, & assuming the MoCa standard is the same &/or relevant for my region (Australasia), a pair of 1.1 adapters should seemingly be fine!?!

(2)
Also, from some of my other readings it sounds like if a run's split (which is probably the case for our OTA coax run -not 100% sure), it can degrade the signal markedly. But what I'm reading here is; if all splitters are rated 2k+, & I don't have too many (or one with 4+ ports) on the same run, then I should definitely be fine?

(3)
Whatsmore, I've no idea how our cable TV frequencies compare to the US's, again, if it's very different, perhaps it could prevent the MoCa adapters from performing optimally (or at all)?

(4)
Additionally, which of our 2 long coax runs do you think would be best for placing some MoCa (or "MoCa like") adapters, & why exactly?

If the 2nd run of coax cabling I outlined above really is laid out the way I described, then I'm thinking it might be relatively easy to pull some cat6 cabling between these two points*. But, I'd still like to get at least 1 pair of MoCa (or whatever's best for my region) adapters, & work out which of my 2 long coax segments is best for such devices.

Reading this & many other sources of info, it seems MoCa's quite limited on the consumer side (albeit not totally) compared to HomePlug. I realise perf/stability differences won't be as big as what one can see with HomePlug. But nonetheless, I'm interested in knowing the marginal differences (perf/other) between the latest MoCa kits -which SNB/elsewhere have compared.

(5)
It seems 2.0 is several months away from delivery (if ever), & even then is likely to be targeted mainly at telcos & similar orgs? If so, in your informed opinions; what's the best performing (on avg) MoCa 1.1 kit out now -or very soon? Should it be fine in Aussie conditions, & where do I find/buy it?

CaptainSTX said:

As for your AMP you may need to replace it if you are going to have it in your MOCA network. An OTA antenna amp only needs to be one way capable and no more than 1000 Mhz. To pass MOCA you need an AMP that is two way (data) capable and will pass 2 Ghz.

Click to expand...

(6)
Ah, this is something I should check too, zero idea if our antenna installation uses an amp. What's a simple way to ascertain if we have one & what it is, without pulling walls down, or climbing onto our roof or ceiling cavities? (hopefully it's hidden directly behind one of the face-plates etc!) If we have one -or more- that doesn't meet those requirements, then I'll consider replacing.

(7)
What about the 2nd run of coax for our cable TV, is it likely to have any amps which may affect the usability of MoCa, plus like the OTA coax run, should I be looking for the overuse of splitters?

Even if we ultimately end-up using Ethernet to connect these 2 points, it'd be handy to have the option to use MoCa in the future, should we decide to use it in parallel etc. Then again, it's probably more practical at that point to just run a 2nd eth cable, esp. if the first run turns out to be so simple, as I suspect (don't yet know for sure) it'll be.

That's just for those 2 points though, there's a least one other coax termination point we might want to use, & I'm quite sure an Ethernet run there is far less trivial. HomePlug will factor-in too of course, I'll be getting at least one pair of HomePlug adapters, but that's for a separate thread.

Thanks again.
*I've a sep. project underway for a long cat6 run from one end of the house (downstairs), to the TV room downstairs.

1) yes probably fine.

2) Should, not necessarily are. Every split you have degrades the signal 3.5dB for a decent split. This is for every down stream connection. So at the input, if you have a 2 way splitter, each connection down stream losses 3.5dB. If there is another 2-way split further down, both of those devices will have lost 7dB (3.5dB at the head end, and 3.5dB from the second split) and the one leg off the first splitter only loses 3.5dB.

That gives you three splits, two with 7dB loss and one with 3.5dB loss. If you used a 3 way splitter at the head end, you would lose 5dB for all 3 legs. You also lose roughly 3dB per 50ft of RG6 wiring for UHF signals (600MHz). Higher frequency at 1000MHz which is more typical of MoCA is going to be closer to 4.5dB per 50ft of wire. Uncapped coax also causes issues because there is a non-contiguous ground. That isn't nearly as much of an issue as having more splitters than you need or more wire than you need though.

My house is currently running a 3 way splitter and at least 100ft of RG6 between my MoCA bridge and my DVR that is being served by it with no issues at all. I've tried with a 5-way that had previously been in place and that worked fine as well.

3) This is possible, but probably unlikely. No idea. Try searching for Australia terrestial cable frequencies.

4) It is going to be up to you to test. I can't really tell you which one would be best without testing it out. As for differences, it is mostly a cost/feature difference. Performance-wise, I have seen no testing of MoCA kits anywhere. My older Actiontec router (which has a built in MoCA bridge) to my pretty new Actiontec MoCA bridge is able to hit low 90Mbps between the two on file transfers across 100+ft of coax and two splitters (the 3-way and a 2-way) when I tested the performance of the MoCA bridge (I don't run the actiontec router any longer) just to see. I'd assume most MoCA 1.1 bridges are going to perform roughly the same, probably give or take a couple of decibles of tolerance for noise/signal strength.

5) Unfortunately can't help you there. I like my Actiontec ECB2500 a fair amount. It was relatively cheap and I've had zero hiccups with it in something like a year and a half of use. It was straight plug-and-play. MoCA 2.0 for the consumer market is DOA. It may eventually show up if/when enough Teleco market implements it, but right now MoCA 2.0 is exceedingly rare in the teleco market. Don't hold your breath. MoCA 1.1 is rare enough.

6) The amp would need power, so you could start looking there.

7) Same thing with the TV antenna, an amp is going to need power.

Sure, I'd eliminate any splitters or cable that isn't needed. However, my Actiontec router worked just fine when I first moved in to my house when it was behind a 2-way and a 7 way splitter and probably 150ft of coax, before I started ripping out unused/un-needed runs and splitters and installing proper length cabling. The signal strength is probably a good 20dB higher with less noise. It was capable of delivering my full FIOS internet speeds at the time of about 80Mbps pre-ripping junk out.

My advice is, run ethernet Cat6 cabling whenever and where ever you can. That applies to both locations where you need it now and to locations you think you may ever need it. It performs a lot better than powerline or MoCA and in a lot of cases, isn't as hard to run as you might think. 95% of the time, even if you don't have easy access because of drop ceilings or unfinished basements, it isn't worse than cutting or drilling a few small holes in some walls or maybe temp removing some baseboard before reinstalling it (90% of the time I didn't have easy access, I've been able to remove the baseboard, cut a hole through the wall behind the baseboard, drill down through, run the wire and then reinstall the baseboard). Total time is pretty short and clean-up is a bit of spackle, some sanding and a little paint.

jalyst said:

These 3 posts are quite illuminating, but they also raise Qns for those in nations that don't use the US standards:

I have a UHF (VHF too IIRC?) antenna mounted on my house, & IIRC it's split into 2 runs: one that terminates in the TV room upstairs, & another which terminates in a TV room downstairs. This is for OTA viewing, IIRC we used it for a short time once we built this house (~13yrs ago), before switching to cable TV.

I also have a completely sep. run of coax cabling (pretty sure it's not connected to our OTA coaxial cabling -surely that'd make no sense!?), it comes from an entry point into our house & terminates in the TV room upstairs, & then continues on to the TV room downstairs. Both terminations ultimately connect to 2 STB's supplied by our cable TV provider (Foxtel), I vaguely recall the one downstairs being a "slave" to the one upstairs, but that's by no means a definite. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure both terminations are part of "one & the same" loop, i.e. they're not 2 entirely separate coax runs from 1st the entry point into the house.

There's a 3rd run, which I think is split at the "MDF" (or whatever the main comms box at the entry point of the house is called), it's only very short, terminates, & the cable from that termination goes into our DOCSIS x.x MODEM.

Our standards are slightly different in Australia, e.g. the terrestrial broadcast standard we use is "DVB-T" not ATSC, I think our cable internet it somewhat similar, but our cable TV is "DVB-C".

(1)
Any idea what frequencies we use here for UHF, if our UHF frequencies are quite a bit higher, it could prevent MoCa adapters from performing optimally (or at all), no? Perhaps we have slightly different MoCA or "MoCa-like" adapters to accommodate for that?

UPDATE: Looking here it seems that all Australasian VHF/UHF doesn't hit 900mhz or higher. And if what I've read others say is correct, generally MoCa doesn't kick-in till about 900mhz, it can go down to ~500mhz but generally it's 900mhz+, right? So on our OTA coax run at least, & assuming the MoCa standard is the same &/or relevant for my region (Australasia), a pair of 1.1 adapters should seemingly be fine!?!

(2)
Also, from some of my other readings it sounds like if a run's split (which is probably the case for our OTA coax run -not 100% sure), it can degrade the signal markedly. But what I'm reading here is; if all splitters are rated 2k+, & I don't have too many (or one with 4+ ports) on the same run, then I should definitely be fine?

Each branch of a splitter costs you at least 3.5 db in signal loss. Fewer splitters are better and don't use 3 or 4 way splitters if possible. A 4 way splitter is electrically two 2 way splitters in series so your loss will be 7 db.

As long as the splitters are rated for 2 Ghz they will work. If they are cheap Chinese junk they might cause problems. No need to buy gold plated splitters from Monster for many dollars but you don't want to buy $0.59 bargain bin items either.

At least as important is that all the terminations are good. If you have crimped on fittings you need to replace them with compression fittings. Also if possible check all the cable coaxial cable. RG6 is best but RG 59 if it is good quality and installed correctly will work. Staples holding the cable down, and sharp bends are a no no. Check for any loose fittings and replace them if necessary.

(3)
Whatsmore, I've no idea how our cable TV frequencies compare to the US's, again, if it's very different, perhaps it could prevent the MoCa adapters from performing optimally (or at all)?

I don't know what frequencies that they use in Australia or why they would be different than the US. Given that Australia's population is approx 26 million it seems likely that the few multi national manufacturers of cable equipment would try and sell sell a world standards product. Look at the manual for your set top boxes and/or the labels on the set top boxes to see what frequencies are tuned.

(4)
Additionally, which of our 2 long coax runs do you think would be best for placing some MoCa (or "MoCa like") adapters, & why exactly?

The CATV runs are your best bet for MoCa. Newer cable, hopefully RG6 and less weather damage from sun and water. The cable running down from the roof could have water infiltration for many feet beyond the outside end.

If the 2nd run of coax cabling I outlined above really is laid out the way I described, then I'm thinking it might be relatively easy to pull some cat6 cabling between these two points*. But, I'd still like to get at least 1 pair of MoCa (or whatever's best for my region) adapters, & work out which of my 2 long coax segments is best for such devices.

Reading this & many other sources of info, it seems MoCa's quite limited on the consumer side (albeit not totally) compared to HomePlug. I realise perf/stability differences won't be as big as what one can see with HomePlug. But nonetheless, I'm interested in knowing the marginal differences (perf/other) between the latest MoCa kits -which SNB/elsewhere have compared.

(5)
It seems 2.0 is several months away from delivery (if ever), & even then is likely to be targeted mainly at telcos & similar orgs? If so, in your informed opinions; what's the best performing (on avg) MoCa 1.1 kit out now -or very soon? Should it be fine in Aussie conditions, & where do I find/buy it?

There isn't a lot of stand alone MoC0 equipment available. Actiontec is the only manufacturer that I am aware of. FIOS uses their hardware. TIVO also uses MoCa to network their set top boxes. MoCa works very well but if it doesn't problems can be harder to diagnose. (Splitters hidden in walls, old cable, loop through wiring etc. ) Installation is easy, but for people that don't understand how things work the installation process can be confusing. With Ethernet over power it is more likely that you will have a plug and play installation that works. Just plug an adapter in at either end and run an Ethernet connection to a router. How fast the connection is depends on distance and noise can slow it down but it will work and likely better than WiFi.

If you can't find a source (ebay, Amazon) that will ship to Australia do you know someone in the US that will reship it to you?



(6)
Ah, this is something I should check too, zero idea if our antenna installation uses an amp. What's a simple way to ascertain if we have one & what it is, without pulling walls down, or climbing onto our roof or ceiling cavities? (hopefully it's hidden directly behind one of the face-plates etc!) If we have one -or more- that doesn't meet those requirements, then I'll consider replacing.

No easy way to find an AMP without having some test equipment to analyze the signal levels in each direction, but an AMP requires AC power so it needs to be near an AC outlet though some AMPs can be fed using coaxial with a wall wart plugged in elsewhere. AMPs usually the size of a couple of decks of playing cards. It is probably not going to be outdoors and is to large to be hidden in the wall. In any case if it was installed 13 years ago and has been powered up for that entire time it is probably dead. Also the cable running from the antenna on the roof is probably shot and if it was only RG 59 the chances of getting it to work for MoCa

(7)
What about the 2nd run of coax for our cable TV, is it likely to have any amps which may affect the usability of MoCa, plus like the OTA coax run, should I be looking for the overuse of splitters?

If you only have two CATV outlets you should not have needed a cable AMP. Sometimes they are installed when signal levels are low and the installer/tech/homeowner are lazy and don't want to correct the real underlying problem(s) .

Even if we ultimately end-up using Ethernet to connect these 2 points, it'd be handy to have the option to use MoCa in the future, should we decide to use it in parallel etc. Then again, it's probably more practical at that point to just run a 2nd eth cable, esp. if the first run turns out to be so simple, as I suspect (don't yet know for sure) it'll be.

That's just for those 2 points though, there's a least one other coax termination point we might want to use, & I'm quite sure an Ethernet run there is far less trivial. HomePlug will factor-in too of course, I'll be getting at least one pair of HomePlug adapters, but that's for a separate thread.

Thanks again.
*I've a sep. project underway for a long cat6 run from one end of the house (downstairs), to the TV room downstairs.

Click to expand...

Good luck! The cost to try MoCa really isn't that large. Even if you can't return the equipment because it doesn't work up to your expectations. I have closet full of gadgets that didn't live up to the hype.

Hey guys, thank-you both very much for the excellent feedback!

I'm pressing ahead with the main part of the overhaul, I've put MoCa & HomePlug adapters right at the very bottom of that list.

If we still have a need for capacity that our new Ethernet Runs & Wifi infra. can't cover sufficiently, then I'll revisit both ASAP.

Thanks again!