L&LD
Part of the Furniture
Appreciate the reminder of different localities, but this site and our discussion is no different than talking to each other on a street. Asus, and / or the courts and the SNB forums have no bearing on each other.
[MOVED POSTS] MU-MIMO still missing on RT-AC87U
- Thread starter L&LD
- Start date
Appreciate the reminder of different localities, but this site and our discussion is no different than talking to each other on a street. Asus, and / or the courts and the SNB forums have no bearing on each other.
sfx2000
Part of the Furniture
yah, but then lawyers get involved, and folks quote this site, and then you have discovery, and thiggins might have to deliver data dumps - it just isn't worth it at the end of the day...
See post 8 and 9 of the link I provided. The hardware is there (prove that it isn't).
I'd like to see your small claims court victory proof and profit (limited to the price of the router). Less any and all time spend preparing for the 'case'.
I'm not sure how you got in impression I would waste my time in court, no I don't quite care enough in this case. Even extraordinary circumstances couldn't get me to seek justice in this system. I simply disagree with what you thing "capable" means in this situation, nothing more. yes yes I know "the hardware" I dont care...currently its as capable at doing MU-MIMO is as an air conditioner is at cooling a room without refrigerant.
GhostriderZ85
Occasional Visitor
Yes i agree, mu-mimo capability means both hardware and software is fuctional, not just hardware, that is just plain stupid.
This is like buying a router that is CAPABLE of WIFI, but then finding out that WIFI doesn't work because the software/firmware that operates it doesn't work. that won't fly in the court of law.
Mark my word, if 6 months passes by and they don't enable mu-mimo nor fix the 5ghz band, i'll get my money back one way or another.
@L&LD
In my opinion there are two possible explanations:
1) You are somehow connected to Asus
2) You are the perfect customer every company ever dreamed of
I´ll never want to inquire a lawyer instead of just reading the product specs before buying something.
For all others
I bought this router (on amazon) because of the following reasons:
- future-proof features like mu-mimo
- dozens of award winning reviews
- upmarket price and the name asus in promise to get a high quality product
At the moment i´m feeling quite disappointed, as some promised features are missing over a period of time where it is absolutely questionable if they ever get realized.
Furthermore there are plenty of bugs which even drives the average consumer crazy (disable WPS, disable LED button, iPhone problems, android battery drain, DLNA disappearing and so on...) so we don´t talk here on a highly technical level
Asus has a very good reputation and the excellent reviews on their side. But they should be aware of the actual reviews (eg on amazon) that are turning into negative as promises aren´t fulfilled. And nearly every previous review mentioned that some major points are still on the to do list without affecting the test in a negative way because expecting it to get fixed soon. Time to deliver or make a official statement on what's going on.
In my opinion there are two possible explanations:
1) You are somehow connected to Asus
2) You are the perfect customer every company ever dreamed of
I´ll never want to inquire a lawyer instead of just reading the product specs before buying something.
For all others
I bought this router (on amazon) because of the following reasons:
- future-proof features like mu-mimo
- dozens of award winning reviews
- upmarket price and the name asus in promise to get a high quality product
At the moment i´m feeling quite disappointed, as some promised features are missing over a period of time where it is absolutely questionable if they ever get realized.
Furthermore there are plenty of bugs which even drives the average consumer crazy (disable WPS, disable LED button, iPhone problems, android battery drain, DLNA disappearing and so on...) so we don´t talk here on a highly technical level
Asus has a very good reputation and the excellent reviews on their side. But they should be aware of the actual reviews (eg on amazon) that are turning into negative as promises aren´t fulfilled. And nearly every previous review mentioned that some major points are still on the to do list without affecting the test in a negative way because expecting it to get fixed soon. Time to deliver or make a official statement on what's going on.
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L&LD
Part of the Furniture
I was not directing the court comment to yourself, there were others in the reply. I am not disagreeing with you on a personal level of what 'capable' means. You and a few others are simply disagreeing with my understanding of what the legal side of the situation is. Sure, it can be open to interpretation by a judge. But as you say and I agree with, seeking 'justice' is just a waste of time for this matter.
Again, I'll repeat. Everyone with an RT-AC87U bought a router with hardware capable of MU-MIMO (as promised). They did not buy a router that was shipped with MU-MIMO as a feature (out of the box). And if it was not fit for purpose, they could have returned it at that time.
While I sympathize with many that that specific feature is not available yet for this model, that is not what was paid for (even if there were clients to use it with today). Nor what Asus owes anyone (legally). You bought a product as-is and decided to keep it for better or worse. The 'bad' decision (for some) is now easily visible in hindsight. But that was your decision to make, independently. Asus did not force you to buy or keep the router in any way except for the misunderstanding of many that took a fact and turned it into a wish.
If you bought a Best Buy product, yes, you will get your money back (or a replacement router for free).
But if you're arguing that you've had issues with this product from day one, and you decided to keep it? Not really anyone's issue except your own. As others state here, there units are working great for them.
I am hardly the perfect customer and certainly do not work for Asus or any other large corporation.
But I've also become more realistic of what I should expect and demand from the consumer products I buy for myself or my customers.
I see by your reasons to buy that we are at the opposite end of the way we purchase products.
I do not care if I am test driving a Lamborghini, I will still be critical as #*&&. Does not matter what I may have read or think I know about a product beforehand.
Reviews that I actively seek are the negative ones. And even then, I judge the writer on the subject, apparent experience and steps taken to resolve the issue. Most of these 'reviews' mean nothing. Most of them.
Direct experience is what matters and it does not get more direct than what I experience myself.
I joined almost two years ago and at that time had many questions about the current routers available for consumers. I quickly found that Asus, with all it's imperfections and still corporate 'ad speak', was still the best of the choices available in my area. After using and testing on my own RT-N66U for a few months and experimenting with RMerlin's firmware (and later, others), I could safely recommend them to some of my customers too.
But in each case, I don't promise them the moon (and sound like an Asus commercial). Instead, I ask them to let me try it in their environments and see if it offers a better experience than what they had.
That is my method of knowing I made the right decision for each customer (they tell me themselves). And they do this by using all the capabilities they used before and any new capabilities the new hardware offers and make decisions appropriately.
I just don't understand why everyone else doesn't do this too.
To all,
The comparisons and examples of what Asus has 'done' is what I do not agree with (entirely).
To me, this is like seeing (and testing) a product right in front of you and instead of taking an objective look at what it is and making the appropriate decision for now, daydreaming is allowed to cloud the reality by what might be in the future.
I do not have the luxury of having my customers pay me today for any possible future work I may perform for them. And I do not expect improvements over what I see at the time of testing either. I hope for them, but see them as a bonus it they materialize, rather than waste time or effort demanding them (anymore).
GhostriderZ85
Occasional Visitor
L&LD, i could argue that when i bought the router, i have no ac devices yet to test it out, and expecting that the AC band will just work when i get AC devices in the future, consumers are not expected to do their research and google things out before buying things, yes it's good to be proactive but the court of law will not tell you that "too bad, you did not googled it"
It it says that the ac router works with the ac devices, then it should work with ac devices, not just half of them.
You keep on defending asus about mu-mimo capability but you just don't get it. Asus did not explitly said that this mu-mimo router is ONLY harware capable, you are absolutely wrong about that. What they said is the ac87u is READY for mu-mimo and will be enabled in the future firmware update.
MU-MIMO WILL BE ENABLED IN THE FUTURE UPDATE, that is what i'm arguing about. Enabling mu-mimo is a promise that have to be fulfilled,
with the absence of a date, the question is till when are we supposed to wait in a legal standpoint? What if this router have hadware issues that prevents the mu-mimo to function and asus just don't want to admit because of legal issues? Can asus just say that it will come soon forever? Or a year of waiting is more than enough to file a complaint?
It it says that the ac router works with the ac devices, then it should work with ac devices, not just half of them.
You keep on defending asus about mu-mimo capability but you just don't get it. Asus did not explitly said that this mu-mimo router is ONLY harware capable, you are absolutely wrong about that. What they said is the ac87u is READY for mu-mimo and will be enabled in the future firmware update.
MU-MIMO WILL BE ENABLED IN THE FUTURE UPDATE, that is what i'm arguing about. Enabling mu-mimo is a promise that have to be fulfilled,
with the absence of a date, the question is till when are we supposed to wait in a legal standpoint? What if this router have hadware issues that prevents the mu-mimo to function and asus just don't want to admit because of legal issues? Can asus just say that it will come soon forever? Or a year of waiting is more than enough to file a complaint?
Your claim for damages regarding your perception of lack of performance of the RT-ac87u will not hold up in a court of law because of a comon Condition included in all Terms and Conditions and Terms of Use for all consumer purchases. That term is Caveat Emptor or translated "buyer beware". This clause waives all liability toward Asus et al for any performance claims, suitability of use, guarranty or waranty. It is the same condition that auto manufacturers use when claiming a car they produce has a maximum speed or 200mph as an example. Auto manufactiurers are protected against frivolous legal action by purchasers who may claim that the car did not reach the stated maximum of 200mph.
If you don't think that the RT-ac87u performs to your satisfaction and the return period has lapsed, maybe you should cut your losses and buy something else.
Btw, my RT-ac87u, works fine, stable, consistent and with all my Apple products and I'm using an old FW.
GhostriderZ85
Occasional Visitor
If you guys think that the TOS, EULA, TOA, or whatever you wanna call it supercedes the law, you are hugely mistaken.
You guys think that "NO RETURN NO EXCHANGE" clause in the terms will prevent consumers from returning product?
No sh$* !!
L&LD
Part of the Furniture
No, none of those supersede the law. But neither is returning a product to the store after a year of use 'legal' in most jurisdictions either. Especially when you're claiming it never worked for you from the start.
snakebite3
Senior Member
MU-MIMO is missing on all router using the Quantenna QT3840BC chip not just ASUS.
The chip is MU-MIMO capable. You'll have to wait for the MU-MIMO clients to be available before you'll see that function. Complain after you have a MU-MIMO client device.
It's up to Quantenna to supply that firmware function.
The chip is MU-MIMO capable. You'll have to wait for the MU-MIMO clients to be available before you'll see that function. Complain after you have a MU-MIMO client device.
It's up to Quantenna to supply that firmware function.
MU-MIMO clients are already out in the market. One of an example is Acer E Series laptop (http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/press/2015/157199) which are currently available in shops all around Singapore.
In Europe and the UK all goods sold are required to be exactly as described, be of good quality and fit for purpose. You cannot describe anything you sell as having features or performance that do not exist or cannot be attained.
Forget "12 months" warranty the retailer is liable for the goods for at least 3 years, they are required to perform for a reasonable length of time. In the case of autos/cars/vehicles the sellers duty extends to 6 years.
Where a purchaser can show defects that existed at purchase or evidence of failure within an unreasonable period the retailer is liable and cannot hide behind a paper warranty.
The manufacturers ( or retailers) paper or implied warranty is additional to the consumers rights under EU and UK law and can't be used to restrict those rights in any way.
The router in question ......... the features in dispute are advertised as fact, not something that may be available in the future, look at the description on the packaging, look at the ASUS website , there is no get out clause or buyer beware, the router is advertised as having features and functions that aren't there.
Apart from that the AC87U is a disaster that should be recalled from the market, the WiFi is useless , the firmware has too many bugs to list and is still not stable even with this weeks release ........
It simply does not function as intended or advertised, it fails to meet the requirements of goods of merchantable quality , it is not fit for purpose.
snakebite3
Senior Member
It's a Qualcomm based chip. Are router currently with MU-MIMO enable Qualcomm based too?
A quick google search show only Qualcomm based chips to have MU-MIMO enable.
Is MU-MIMO a function that requires the Firmware to be develop for a specific MU-MIMO client chip?
Qualcomm designed chips for both Routers and Clients. So they have the advantage of getting that function to work first.
I haven't heard Quantenna and Broadcom announcement a client MU-MIMO capable chip.
To me this seems a completely pointless argument, it'll work eventually but for the moment with practically no clients available and still the majority of devices people currently own parked on 2.4Ghz band I kind of feel it is of very low priority compared to improving stability and useful features.
There are standards for MU-MIMO. But like all standards, there is enough "wiggle room" for variation that can introduce interoperability problems. But you should NOT have to match router and device chipsets to get MU-MIMO to work.
Quantenna does not have a MU-MIMO client chipset. Broadcom also has at least one STA chipset. But at this point, Qualcomm has about a year lead over Broadcom in MU-MIMO.
L&LD
Part of the Furniture
I will take your word for the laws as it applies to the UK and Europe, but your claims of what Asus has stated and has on their packaging is not correct, to my knowledge.
The facts are,
- The hardware is there, with the capabilities claimed.
- No MU-MIMO clients exist to 'need' that potential capability enabled.
- If the rest of the features do not work for specific users, why would they hang on to a non working (for them) product? Sounds kind of dumb to me.
To me, it simply hints at the entitlement attitude that has undermined Greece, Italy and soon enough, other EU countries as well.
I understand that if a product is a dud the manufacturer should make it right. But extended into over half a decade into the future depending on the product? Doesn't pass the sniff test of 'fair' for everyone to me.
snakebite3
Senior Member
I don't think that's true. if that were true there would be greater than 50% of negative reviews 2to1 stars.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00NQY3WO8/?tag=smallncom-21
The router function as advertised for most users.
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