Basic Advice Request

[df58]

Back in the days of DOS I could set up a network
TOKREUI and NETBEUI in the config.sys
SHARE commands in the Auto exec
and batch commands using xcopy.exe /a/s/m for backup (using attrib.exe where necessary)

I now want to have something to act as a (preferably seemless) backup system for various laptops and netbooks that I have. All connect wirelessly to a ADSL modem/router. I currently have between 5GB and 60GB (used) space on my various machines, but digital photography is gobbling space, and I have just downloaded my first mp3 file!

I think what I know may be confusing me (much like my knowledge of Windows confused me when beginning to learn Linux). Are there straight forward answers to the following questions?

1) If a NAS plugs via Ethernet into the back of the router, will it appear, via plug and play on Windows as an extra drive, and as media to be mounted in Linux? Presumably I can look at my router set-up to get the address if I have to manually configure. I am confused why there appear to be reported compatibility problems for some kit with certain operating systems (e.g. some Iomega hardware and Windows 7 64 bit) - surely a file going across my internal network, is similar to one going across the internet and the actual OS on either end is irrelevant?

2) Presumably I can set up a directory on the NAS for each of my machines and get each directory to appear as a drive? Are backup programs just glorified GUI front ends to xcopy?

3) If I set up a NAS as RAID 1, it sounds as if I get protection against the impact of a single hard-disk failure - but I still get knacked if the cause of the failure is a power failure which could corrupt both drives?

4) To back up a NAS set up under RAID 1, can you just swap a hard-disk, taking out one (with a complete copy and storing it off-site) and putting in a new one which will over a few hours receive a copy of the remaining one (during which time you do not have the protection benefits of RAID 1)?

Apologies if I am coming at this completely the wrong way!

DF

 

[claykin]

First, welcome to the forum.

1) Plug and play, I hope not! NAS vendors include an application that allows you to discover the NAS IP and connect to its web browser interface for setup. Some users (such as myself) choose to not bother with these apps when they aren't required. Many NAS products have an LCD front panelt hat will disclose their LAN IP. Just use a web browser to connect using the manufacturer's recommended method. i.e. Netgear recommends https://NASIP/admin. You enter username admin and password netgear1 to start. That easy.

Compatibility issues are often related to CIFS protocol issues. Sometimes a new NAS needs a firmware upgrade to be fully Win 7 compatible. Yes, Microsoft seems to have made mods to the TCP stack which can cause file transfer problems or performance issues.

2) You can setup SHARES for each PC or create a SHARE that all PC's see. Most NAS' can have many shares with different permissions. Most NAS also allow private user shares.

3) RAID 1 does give you some protection from a single disk failure. Note that the majority of consumer NAS products use software RAID. This is somewhat different than a hardware RAID controller.

4) Not a good idea. For one, when you remove a disk, this will cause the RAID array to degrade immediately. Inserting a replacement will cause the RAID to rebuild. Any single failure during rebuild could be disastrous. Second, SATA connectors are not designed for routine in/out. Most are designed for a max of 300 cycles or so.

What you want to do is backup your NAS data (at the very least the irreplaceable data) to an external USB disk and/or a remote source/cloud storage.

Hope this helps.

 

[df58]

Claykin

Many thanks for your reply. Conclusions:

1) I do need to look for Windows 7 64 bit compatibility - unfortunately.
2) Once the kit is recognised though, I am probably OK
3) RAID is probably oversold (for what I am after), so there is probably little benefit looking for a multi-drive solution. I would be better off looking for a couple of single drive solutions.
4) Cloud storage is probably not yet going to be a solution due to the slow speed ADSL connection, perhaps when I have a 20M connection (one day). But two drives connected to the router may not be able to backup to each other (other than running a job on a laptop like xcopy F:\*.* G:\*.* /s/m, which will tie up my laptop!).

Need to get something as my old Freecom drive seems to have died (the dreaded clicking sound when switched on)

David

 

[claykin]

Claykin


1) I do need to look for Windows 7 64 bit compatibility - unfortunately.

I suspect all quality NAS products work fine with Win 7 x64. I have zero problems with my Readynas units.

2) Once the kit is recognised though, I am probably OK

You won't (likely) be connecting to your shares via uPNP, so its not really automatic. You will (more likely) set mapped drives or use UNC paths to access your shares. This is very easy and the NAS vendors show this to you in their quick setup guides.

3) RAID is probably oversold (for what I am after), so there is probably little benefit looking for a multi-drive solution. I would be better off looking for a couple of single drive solutions.

Its not that RAID is oversold, its more that people don't understand its limitations. RAID 1/5/6 can protect you from a single (or double in the case of RAID 6) failure. On the other hand, RAID failures can sometimes be caused by things that could corrupt/destroy the entire array. Take lightning for example!

4) Cloud storage is probably not yet going to be a solution due to the slow speed ADSL connection, perhaps when I have a 20M connection (one day).

I have many people using cloud backup over std 1.5/256Kb DSL. The jobs run at night but once the initial backup is done its usually pretty fast. Modern cloud providers do delta file backup (only backup changed blocks of large files) and this helps. Do an assessment of your important/irreplaceable data and revisit it. Post your details in another thread and one of us will give you some advice. My personal favorite is Jungledisk.

But two drives connected to the router may not be able to backup to each other (other than running a job on a laptop like xcopy F:\*.* G:\*.* /s/m, which will tie up my laptop!).

There are plenty of desktop backup apps that will write to two destinations. Some NAS products, such as the Readynas line include an excellent built in backup tool to make your NAS data redundant elsewhere. A USB disk, second NAS, etc.... Most NAS products support RSYNC which works great to backup one NAS to another.

 

[df58]

Claykin,

Thanks again. I may be getting to the stage of just buying something and risking it.

For instance: Windows 7 compatibility: I am wondering whether product sold in the UK comes with an earlier set of firmware (or even an earlier version of the hardware)!

If I look at say (purely for example) the Buffalo Linkstation (LS-CH1.0TL) on Amazon.co.uk it states:
System Requirements: Microsoft Windows 2000, Microsoft Windows XP, Microsoft Windows Server 2003, Apple MacOS X 10.3.9 or later, Microsoft Windows Vista, Microsoft Windows Server 2008
No mention of Windows 7 (never mind 64 bit), nor Linux. The Buyer feedback indicates that there are problems. Buying knowing something does not meet your requirements, significantly reduces your rights in respect of returning items.

Another example: Iomega keep sending promotional emails, but as far as I can make out their products are not Windows 7 64bit compatible. (For the StorCenter ix2-200: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home/XP Professional/XP Professional x64; Windows Vista™ Home Basic/Home Premium/Business/Ultimate, Ubuntu 7.10, Fedora 8, Fedora 7, Fedora Core 6/5, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 Desktop/Workstation, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 Desktop/Workstation, OpenSUSE 10.3, Debian 4, Mac OS X 10.3 or later)

Another: NETGEAR ReadyNAS Duo RND2110 - NAS server per Amazon.co.uk: System Requirements: Linux, Apple MacOS X, Microsoft Windows 2000 SP4, Microsoft Windows XP SP1 or later, Microsoft Windows Vista

(Amazon does sell Win 7 64 bit systems - I use them as an example retailer, others are similar. For example PCWorld.co.uk states that the requirements for WD My Book World Edition Network Hard Drive - 1TB are: Windows XP/Vista or Mac OS X Tiger/Leopard)

I could buy direct from the US (but that can be a nightmare particularly with many companies refusing to support "grey imports"). Just leap in and hope? Or any way of being sure that what I buy can be firmware upgraded to Windows 7 64 bit?

In increasing frustration!

David

 

[claykin]

I cannot speak for the Buffalo and Iomega but I know for sure that the Readynas Duo loaded with V4.1.6 firmware will work fine with Win 7. Yes, it will likely arrive with older firmware, but you simply upgrade it (for free) and you're ready to go.

That said, are you aware that all these NAS models are relatively slow? Personally, I would recommend an x86 based NAS for future compatibility and support. Netgear will release an Ultra 2 to ultimately replace the Duo. This comes out in October. Price unknown but probably around $350-400 or so with no disks.

Or look at one of the 2 bay x86 Synology or Qnap units if you need one sooner. All can be firmware upgraded for free.

 

[df58]

Long delay due to combination of a family crisis and trouble identifying x86 based NASs.

The QNAP and Synology systems do look as if they are significantly better (sturdier, more functional, fewer question marks and better information on the web - but possibly less UK support) than the models I have previously been looking at - at about a 50% price hike for the QNAP TS-210 +1TB or Synology DS210j +1TB - but I don't think these are x86. The next step up seems to be TS239 (no disks) at £415 (GBP) as against £167 (GBP) for the TS210 (again without disks). Suddenly the backup cost is looking more expensive than the systems they are intended to back up! (Buy a second laptop and get it to mirror the one I mainly use?!)

This leaves me wondering do I need "more speed" - where will I see the benefit, as I suspect that my system is constrained by a 6M max broadband (more reliably 4M) and 802.11g WiFi? If I "over-spec" when will I actually start to see the benefit - or what else do I have to up-spec to see the benefit - Router, laptop, broadband (when our infrastructure is sorted)? I suspect that the HDD that I chose to put into something like the TS-210 may have as much effect on performance as the processor choice?

Working through QNAP's and Synology HDD compatibility charts is also a bit mind boggling - particularly when you cannot match up the HDD model numbers to what on-line stores are offering - often the final digits can be quite crucial.

 

[thiggins]

Why do you need the NAS to be X86 based? The OS and filesystem used in the NAS are independent of what is running in the client. The important thing is that clients and NAS support the same network file system. Everything supports SMB/CIFS, so you should be fine.

Software compatibility specs on NASes are for the most part just vendor CYA. The only thing where OS matters is in the backup client many vendors bundle in. If you want "seamless" client backup, however, you'll probably want to buy your own backup client, since bundled apps tend to be pretty basic.

The TS-210 and DS210j are Marvell Kirkwood based (ARM). Info on all NAS processors can be accessed via the NAS Charts, Features.

If you are using the NAS primarily as backup, you can probably live with a lower performance, cheaper NAS. Using incremental backup, the first backup will take awhile, but after that, they'll run pretty fast.

 

[df58]

Tim,

Thanks, that makes sense in respect of once a file is winging its way across a network it does not really matter what is on either end in terms of OS or Filesystem. And, for backup purposes I cannot see any purpose in getting anything faster than my wireless link. Plus I would have thought the backup programme really should be client (rather than NAS) dependent.

A two (BYOD) disk box looks only only marginally more expensive than a single disk box, so buying one (probably a TS-210 or DS210j initially with a single 1TB disk) looks like a sensible way to go to basically backup any system that I connect to my network. Both seem to be robust and well-thought of, and it looks as if both keep their OS off the disk (which seems to add to reliability), and that you can at a later stage organise relatively easily for either of them to back themselves up. Plus you seem to get basic print serving (which could be a useful bonus).

Then when our TV finally goes digital I can think again!

Thanks
David

 

[thiggins]

That sounds like a good choice. Note, however, that BYOD NASes do use part of the drive(s) for the OS. But they replicate it as needed in multiple drive configurations.

 

[df58]

Tim,

Thanks again - does that mean that the NAS comes with a CD with the OS on it and you have to load it up once you have got the NAS and loaded a drive? The compatibility Chart (for the QNAP) indicates I may have to upgrade the firmware before the WD drive will be recognised. This makes me wonder about the logistics of actually setting up the NAS.

David

 

[thiggins]

It's very simple. BYOD products either do what they need to do out of boot code in flash, or come with a wizard that prompts you through loading the OS from a CD or file.

QNAPs will boot to a setup wizard with no drives. But the wizard doesn't provide the option of upgrading firmware. Don't have a Synology handy to try the experiment.

Safest approach is to boot with a drive (you can probably use any 3.5" SATA drive you have around), update firmware, then load up your new drives and reconfigure.

 

[df58]

OK, might get interesting!

 

[df58]

Well one QNAP TS-210 and WD 1TB disk arrived courtesy of Amazon. Despite the warning about needing to upgrade the firmware for the disk, the required firmware was on the CD, and set-up went exactly according to the quick set-up guide.

Windows 7 (Home Premium 64 bit) gave a few problems (it appears that MS have crippled some of the networking features - for instance you cannot use the MS backup function to backup to a network drive). But managed to get the print serve function working and to set up mapped drives.

The Netbak software that came with it did not appear to be much cop - no obvious incremental backup and the first full backup tripped out once too many times. Currently using the MS "Skunk works product" SyncToy which seems to do the job - but not as fast as I would like (even when working over a wired network rather than wireless).

I wonder what is the easiest way to take a Windows 7 Home Premium (64 bit) disk image to the NAS?

David