Battery Backup or Surge Protector?

[alarsen77]

Hi guys, I have my Asus RT-AC3100 and my Motorola SB6183 in an area by themselves. There is a printer I have there as well so they are the only 3 things going to be hooked up. I want to get either a surge protector or battery backup that has the cable connections to run the cable in and out of for the modem as well. I am just curious if most of you just use a good surge protector for their equipment or if you get a good battery backup with voltage regulation and stuff like that? I am looking at a few different cyberpower battery backups, but was just curious what most of you guys do or suggest?

I also could be adding an NAS down the road.

 

[System Error Message]

surge protection is the cheapest. Battery backup should have a voltage regulator and all sorts of stuff because of the battery however a battery backup is only if you need things running and are doing something crucial. At the least, make sure all your electronics are surge protected first.

 

[alarsen77]

surge protection is the cheapest. Battery backup should have a voltage regulator and all sorts of stuff because of the battery however a battery backup is only if you need things running and are doing something crucial. At the least, make sure all your electronics are surge protected first.

Ok, I am thinking about going with a smaller 600 watt battery backup just cause I might add an NAS down the road and having the ability to not have that shut down abruptly would be nice.

 

[thiggins]

Battery backup...ALWAYS. Surge protectors don't provide much protection.

 

[coxhaus]

I would run your router, modem and future NAS on battery backup but not the printer. The battery backup will make the router and modem more stable stopping those little power drops.

I like APC real well.

 

[alarsen77]

Battery backup...ALWAYS. Surge protectors don't provide much protection.

Thanks for the input, I really don't want to spend a whole lot of money maybe about $100-$150 or so. Do you have any suggestions? I was thinkging about picking this one up on amazon, its only 600 watts which should be plenty for my small load and has the pure sine wave protection. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00429N192/?tag=snbforums-20

 

[System Error Message]

Battery backup...ALWAYS. Surge protectors don't provide much protection.

thats quite untrue. There are battery backups that dont provide much protection and cases of battery powered products exploding because of a faulty charger and lack of protection. Some battery backups do provide protection and there are big surge protectors that really do protect. Usually for the same amount of protection a surge protector is cheaper than a battery especially because you dont have to maintain it unlike a battery which you would have to replace every 3 to 5 years. Also despite online guides about replacing the battery cheaply you cannot mix different types of batteries because of the charging circuit (if it has one) which is programmed only for one type of battery so you cant just take a car battery and use it in a used UPS. However having a battery to prevent sudden shut downs is good to protect against loss of data or devices that lack enough capacitors and detection if power is loss which all modern hard drives have and boasted about at one time about that detection feature.

always check the details before getting but at the very least protect your equipments with surge protectors.

 

[westom]

Do you have any suggestions? I was thinkging about picking this one up on amazon, its only 600 watts which should be plenty for my small load and has the pure sine wave protection.

Ignore urban myths such as pure sine waves. Most who recommend this stuff are only educated by advertising and hearsay. Start at the beginning. What do you want to accomplish?

As I read it, you wanted hardware protection. As another noted, a UPS does not protect hardware. it is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. Power loss (ie blackouts) do not harm hardware. Worse, adjacent protectors can even make hardware damage easier - for more reasons beyond what System Error Messages provided.

Should you want an answer, then dispose of soundbyte answers that provided no numbers. Instead, learn from many times longer posts that discuss a number that defines hardware protection. Proven solutions will always answer this question - where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Cable protection? Did you know all cables are required to provide superior protection - for free? Why do so many who make recommendations not even know that?

More numbers; for my 120 volt pure sine wave UPS. It outputs 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts. Due to robust protection already inside all electronics, this is ideal power. AND they did not lie. Those square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. A subjective expression "sine wave" hopes you will forget what was taught in high school math.

Show me one Cyberpower spec number that defines a 'pure sine wave' such as %THD. They make subjective claims. Lying subjectively is legal. They cannot lie in numeric specifications. Where is one numeric that defined "pure"? Scams are that easily promoted - especially to consumers who do not viciously demand spec numbers.

Do not cure what is irrelevant. Your concern should address something completely different that can overwhelm existing and robust protection inside all appliances. A completely different solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. You should have plenty of questions. Ignore answers not tempered by numbers.

For example, how many joules does that Cyberpower claim to absorb? A damning number.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Battery backup...ALWAYS. Surge protectors don't provide much protection.

I agree with this.

And supporting SMB networks for almost 20 years, I can look back..and think of hundreds...no..likely over a thousand..examples illustrating how network equipment plugged into good battery up units don't have nearly the problems and failure rates of those plugged into just plain "surge strips".

And I continue to see examples every day....network devices (and any other equipment) plugged into battery backup units are more reliable and the equipment lasts longer. Less "rebooting" of equipment needed, less "another dead Linksys router" replacing of equipment.

...and likewise...network equipment I see on just plain surge strips...the clients are more likely to call/complain more of "no internet"...so I have them reboot their modem/router, and switch. And I'll be more likely to be replacing a modem or router or switch because one is more likely to die/fail.

However...heard of "brown outs"? Those are slight dips in power. Heard of little power surges? Little spikes? Surge protectors don't do much (if at all) to protect whatever is plugged into them from those. Smaller electronic devices are "sensitive"...and brown outs and little surges take a tremendous toll on them. Causing failure rates, premature failure, dead power supplies, leaking capacitors, lock ups (how many times you get tired of rebooting the router or rebooting a network switch). How many times do you hear of people complaining that consumer grade routers with their crappy little power supplies die so often?

Battery backup units "condition" the power...keeping it nice and smooth and even. This leads to longer life of electronic components plugged into them, better stability (less lockups). Devices plugged into a battery UPS will eat a healthy diet of nothing but nice clean power!

As for battery units "exploading" all the time like someone mentioned above...nah, I don't see that. I've seen some extra large units (like massive rack mount 1500 or 2200 or 3000 sized ones) have bulging batteries...those are typically found in overheated server rooms with improper HVAC.

Price? We're talking about residential networks here...home networks. You just need a little 350 or maybe 550 at the most sized APC unit....we're talking 45 to 65 bucks. Typically lasts over 3 years..this varies based on how much "work" they have to do (aka..if you have poor power it works harder so shorter life). There's no need to go..(LMAO) swap a car battery in there. And, like anything else, don't get "generic/off-brand" replacement batteries. Just pickup another battery UPs.

 

[htismaqe]

Hard power-off and power back on reduces the lifespan of electronic devices. Stonecat has it right - get a UPS, you won't regret it.

 

[RMerlin]

Some surge protector have a limited life, after which they are no longer effective. You might need to replace them after a few years.

Story-time: a few years ago, a customer came into our store, showing us a surge protector that was badly burned around its switch. "I want another one just like this one". Turns out a few days before, the power company screwed up while doing repairs in his area. Most electrical devices in his building was killed. In his own appartment, the only electrical devices that survived were those plugged to that surge protector (which he had previously purchased from us).

So yes, those things DO work - I've had a first hand experience to confirm it. The key is to buy a quality one - those will typically even offer your an insurance on the devices plugged to it if it fails to do its job.

 

[RMerlin]

For the OP question: personally I use a small UPS to cover my cordless phone, modem, router and VoIP ATA, mostly because I want VoIP to keep working during power outages. No need to pay much, I got a Cyberpower that cost me below 100$ CAD at the time, gives me about 2 hours of battery time.

 

[westom]

And I continue to see examples every day....network devices (and any other equipment) plugged into battery backup units are more reliable and the equipment lasts longer. Less "rebooting" of equipment needed, less "another dead Linksys router" replacing of equipment.

This is comparing apples to buffalo wings to napkins. A unit that has problems due to software failures has no relationship to another that has hardware failures. Both symptoms must be discussed separately. Especially since a power strip protector is only for hardware protection whereas a UPS is only for software protection.

Furthermore, UPS here refers to a plug-in adjacent unit - not building wide or 3000 watt rack mounted UPS that is electrically different - that performs different functions - that contains other functions.

Brownouts are not hardware destructive. That was even an international design standard long before PCs existed. Ideal voltage for electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. All such voltage variations (also called sags or brownouts) must be made irrelevant by what is inside electronics. AC voltages can vary as much as 85 to 265 volts. Internal voltages must vary as little as 2%. Where is the damage? Why must AC voltages be better regulated? They don't.

Battery backup units (discussed here) do not condition power. Especially not $45 - 65 dollar boxes. Most connect an appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Nothing exists to condition power other than superior filters and regulators that must already be inside all electronics.

UPS output 'diritest' power when in battery backup mode. Why? All electronics are so robust to - as the example demonstrated - to make irrelevant 200 volt waves with up to 270 volt spikes. Any electronics harmed by this were defective when purchased.

An AC utility also demonstrates 'dirty' UPS power. That UPS switches from AC mains (on left) to battery (on right). Waveforms (figures 1&2) demonstrate 'dirtier' power is from a UPS battery:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

We constantly repaired equipment to discover failure reasons. In one case, they a powered off computer would not power back on. Using observation, power cycling was blamed. Then I did the analysis. A pullup resistor had failed - probably during many months that computer had been left on. Damage probably occurred months earlier. Resistor's only function was to bootstrap power during power on. Damage from months previously was observed only during power cycling. They used observation - not facts. They blamed power cycling because observation was not tempered by facts and how electronics work.

Conclusion based only in observation is why junk science exists. One must know details - the reasons why - before making conclusions.

Another example. Why do clocks, dishwasher. GFCIs, smoke detectors, and other less robust devices such as dimmers switches not fail so more often? Those devices do not have UPS protection. Their internal protection is even less robust. One cannot 'cherry pick' observations. All examples must be considered if making any observations.

Some devices are at greatest risk when an actual problem is not addressed. Therefore best evidence comes from the dead body - an autopsy. If something (completely different and not yet discussed) does not exist, then modems may act as protectors for other building electronics. But again, to say more requires facts - not observations. Without facts and a discussion of everything (every item in a building and building wiring), then only junk science conclusions are possible.

Accurately noted is a high failure rate for home UPSes (ie 3-5 years for a battery). These are made as cheaply as possible. Even my car battery, used multiple times every day and in a much harsher environment, lasts seven years or longer. That APC UPS does not protect hardware. It does provide temporary and 'dirty' power during blackouts to protect unsaved data.

What hardware is protected? Which electronic part? Any protection from brownouts is unnecessary - a mythical fear.

Do you know about a safety lockout feature in some electronics? Power off (by disconnecting its power cord - not just a power off) clears this safety lockout feature. Observation would blame a brownout rather than that protection feature. Another example of why observation, not tempered by internal hardware facts, can result in junk science conclusions.

We have not yet discussed what is essential to protect all household and server hardware - and from what. Unfortunately that discuss required longer posts.

 

[westom]

Some surge protector have a limited life, after which they are no longer effective. You might need to replace them after a few years.

A surge is a current. If that surge was incoming to a protector, then same current at same time was outgoing into attached equipment. Long later, that current causes damage often in the weakest part in that circuit. A grossly undersized protector failed on a current that was also too tiny to overwhelm protection inside attached appliances. Grossly undersizing a protector gets naive consumers to buy more - as the story demonstrated.

Now include numbers. How many joules does that protector claim to block or absorb? Read its specifications. Hundreds? A hundreds joule transient is often converted by electronics to stable, clean, low voltage DC to safely power its semiconductors. Where is this protection?

Honest answers always include perspective - ie numbers. Subjective reasoning is how junk science gets promoted. If any protector claims protection, then a specification number defines that protection. Otherwise a near zero protector can be promoted as 100% protection.

Facilities that cannot have damage use something completely different that also costs tens of times less money. This proven solution is based in over 100 years of science and experience. A solution that answers the question for every protection solution - where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Protectors must remain functional (undamaged) for decades - even after direct lightning strikes or a linemen error. As has been routine and understood even 100 years ago.

 

[alarsen77]

A surge is a current. If that surge was incoming to a protector, then same current at same time was outgoing into attached equipment. Long later, that current causes damage often in the weakest part in that circuit. A grossly undersized protector failed on a current that was also too tiny to overwhelm protection inside attached appliances. Grossly undersizing a protector gets naive consumers to buy more - as the story demonstrated.

Now include numbers. How many joules does that protector claim to block or absorb? Read its specifications. Hundreds? A hundreds joule transient is often converted by electronics to stable, clean, low voltage DC to safely power its semiconductors. Where is this protection?

Honest answers always include perspective - ie numbers. Subjective reasoning is how junk science gets promoted. If any protector claims protection, then a specification number defines that protection. Otherwise a near zero protector can be promoted as 100% protection.

Facilities that cannot have damage use something completely different that also costs tens of times less money. This proven solution is based in over 100 years of science and experience. A solution that answers the question for every protection solution - where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Protectors must remain functional (undamaged) for decades - even after direct lightning strikes or a linemen error. As has been routine and understood even 100 years ago.

So are you saying that we shouldn't use surge protectors or battery backup? It seems like from what I can take out of all your posts is that the internal components are built to withstand it and that it doesn't matter what type of power it is getting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RMerlin]

A simple breaker handles current surges, and those come from overloading a circuit (current is function of the draw, not the supply). Those surge suppressor will deal with voltage peaks - which was what occurred with that customer (H-Q sent the wrong voltage through the regular 110V circuit of that building).

I can't give you exact numbers because that was over 10 years ago. But I remember that surge protector cost 40$-50$, not 9.99$. I can say that the protection did its job, which is all one would want from it. So, as far as I'm concerned, a quality surge protector CAN make a difference.

Properly designed protection equipment should fail before they allow a problem case to reach the expensive equipment. That's why some circuits use diodes, or low resistances that will typically fail before the expensive components beyond it can be damaged.

It's also mentioned in the design of power supplies such as computer PSUs, that a power supply should ensure that it completely fails before it allows the equipment beyond itself to be damaged in case of a problem.


One of the various articles mentioning surge suppressor having a finite lifespan:

http://www.howtogeek.com/212375/why-and-when-you-need-to-replace-your-surge-protector/

 

[westom]

So are you saying that we shouldn't use surge protectors or battery backup?

Quite the opposite. A last paragraph said

We have not yet discussed what is essential to protect all household and server hardware - and from what. Unfortunately that discuss required longer posts.

Also stated was

Do not cure what is irrelevant. Your concern should address something completely different that can overwhelm existing and robust protection inside all appliances. A completely different solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. You should have plenty of questions. Ignore answers not tempered by numbers.

All appliances contain robust protection. A few others recommended protecting from something already made irrelevant. Your concern is anomalies that can overwhelm existing protection. That solution typically costs tens of times less money. And has been routinely found in facilities that cannot have damage - even 100 years ago.

But again, that is much longer discussion based in what defines protection - where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed? This is simply exposing (challenging) many urban myths.

Claim made without perspective (ie numbers) are best ignored. For example, does a simple breaker handle currents? Yes. And then we apply numbers. Destructive currents occur in microseconds. Breakers take anywhere from milliseconds to as much as an hour to trip. 300 consecutive surges could exist before any breaker even thought about tripping.

Circuit breakers do not protect hardware. Circuit breakers (even Edison's original fuse) are about protecting humans AFTER damage has occurred.

Also scary is that howtogeek.com citation. First, it only provides one number - 1000 joules. What happens when it tries to absorb a destructive surge - ie hundreds of thousands of joules? Well it must have a thermal fuse to disconnect protector parts as fast as possible. While leaving that surge still connected to appliances.

Second, sometimes that fuse does not blow fast enough. Last picture shows what every MOV manufacturer says must not happen - catastrophic failure. In some cases, that failure has caused house fires. A problem so serious that APC recently admitted to maybe one million protectors that have that major, serious, and scary defect. Other protectors of similar design from other companies should also cause you concern.

Again, any technically honest reply will say where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. And numbers that say why a proven solution even connects direct lightning strikes low impedance and harmlessly there - and remains functional (undamaged) for decades.

Surge that can overwhelm appliance protection occur maybe once every seven years. Not daily as so many urban myths claim. That 7 year number can vary even in the same town due to relevant parameters such as utility line routing and geology. But then we learn this stuff also by doing it. By also learning from our mistakes. Technology is so well proven that appliance or protector failure is directly traceable to some human mistake.

Why does that subjective Howtogeek.com citation recommend protector replacement every two years? I also would say that if I was selling a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts for an obscene $35 or $85. Instead, explained is what is known and what engineers observed probably doing this stuff before he was born.

You best start learning by asking the relevant question. An answer originally demonstrated by Benjamin Franklin in 1752.

 

[remixedcat]

surge protectors have unstable let thru voltages that even fluctuate. Unstable and lacks battery. Also cheap ones just have a fuse that gets blown when a real hit happens.

APC's been really good for me.

Got an NS1080 for my main rig, a BE550U for my switch and AP injectors (ubnt needs staqndard PoE allready!) and my hubbys gor an RS900

 

[RogerSC]

I'm a fan of UPS's, myself. They provide outlets for both battery backup and surge protection. I like to have my modem and router, as well as my desktop and laptop on battery backup. So I have a 1500VA CyberPower UPS that also provides a USB connection to my computer for monitoring its operation. Works very well...there's a meter on the front that is multi-function. Has the output voltage, remaining battery time, etc. readable on the LED meter. We don't have many long power outages, but a few brownouts, power glitches, and short power outages, especially during winter storms. Very handy to get through those without having my modem and router see the power glitches and lowered line voltages.

 

[System Error Message]

surge protectors have unstable let thru voltages that even fluctuate. Unstable and lacks battery. Also cheap ones just have a fuse that gets blown when a real hit happens.

APC's been really good for me.

Got an NS1080 for my main rig, a BE550U for my switch and AP injectors (ubnt needs staqndard PoE allready!) and my hubbys gor an RS900

Not all surge protectors have unstable voltages, The difference is in the components. Some bigger surge protectors that may only have one or 2 plugs and the size of a dedicated home NAS would have capacitors for the purpose of stabilising the voltages. There are different components in protecting equipment.

one is over current in which in a house the circuit breaker is supposed to protect against incase a huge current/voltage goes through.
another would be from smaller overcurrents or over voltages and you can either actively regulate it or use simple components that will burn out when this happens. Not all UPS have this feature and most surge protectors use simple components designed to fail.
another protection would be from an incorrect voltage input which only some UPS and surge protectors protect from.
finally the last protection would be from unstable voltages which is solved through the use of capacitors. Although more capacitors can add more protection it can create current spikes from a higher inrush current. There is inrush current protection too but you cant expect a surge protector or a UPS to protect against that since computers that use really high current PSUs such as for 1000W and above are more prone to this since they require more capacitors to stabilise the load.

RMerlin is correct in that the main protection from variances in electricity come from the device PSU, only the things you dont expect normally is what damages them such as lightning and surges.

So to summerise, if you want a battery backup, make sure it provides protection. Theres both active and passive protection and they have different advantages and disadvantages. For a battery backup you will want active protection which can provide more features and make sure that it really does have the protection you want from a surge protector too. For the rest of your equipment, get a surge protector that offers warranty on devices plugged into it. There are good and bad ones so look at whats available and the details first.

You need to spend some time and do research because unlike getting a computer thats too slow electrical problems can be physically harmful to people.

One way you can extend a UPS life is to change the battery. When doing this make sure you know the battery type (nickel, lithium, etc), voltage and maximum amp output. As long as you get a battery of the same type, voltage and the amp output bigger than it needs to be or the same or even with more capacity it helps to save money instead of buying a new UPS except if it offers better protection.