Brainstorming: Routers without a Firmware , Why Not ?

[htismaqe]

Hi,
Hardware anyone can build, software not really. Real thing is in software, like AI, fuzzy logic, biometric interface, etc., etc. Hardware flaws often can be dealt with software as well. All in all, advancement of technology is ahead of our ability to absorb it all making us dumber, lazier more and more. iPhone 6? is there any one who can understand all the features and apps use them all all the time? Raise your hand.

Actually, literally anyone can write software too. Just take a look at the Android app store...

It's few and far between though the ones that can write GOOD software.

 

[TonyH]

Hmm,
You are right on that for sure In my work days, where I was, software guys(analyst, designer, programmer, etc..) out numbered big time than us h/w guys.

 

[IAAI]

I would argue that "WE" are not typical consumers.



Sorry, but I'm a realist. The idea that things will change if we all "stick together" is just pure fantasy. We make up maybe 5-10% of the total consumer networking market I would guess.



The vast majority of consumers automatically assume newer=better and there's nothing at all you can do to change that. 50 years of rampant materialism aren't going to be undone overnight, if at all.



But this is probably a discussion for a political forum rather than this one...

As a grown man i read and research about the majority of products i want to get then i compare my requirements vs. features + (router specs) + reviews (feedback)

I think we are far more than 30% of xyz router company customers. If we could reach another 20% of the xyz customers and educate the . We ll make a difference

when is the right time for a typical person to decide he needs to upgrade? Fashion ,real need, mislead by marketing ?

 

[TonyH]

Hi,
By any chance is your career in a related field? Ever took courses in economics? My son is an engineer like me with second degree in economics, he always laments engineering principle and economics reality collides in his daily job. In a corporate setting marketing types over ride engineers all the time. Sounds like you're an idealist! Corporate runs on the basis of bottom line.

 

[IAAI]

Hi,
By any chance is your career in a related field? Ever took courses in economics? My son is an engineer like me with second degree in economics, he always laments engineering principle and economics reality collides in his daily job. In a corporate setting marketing types over ride engineers all the time. Sounds like you're an idealist! Corporate runs on the basis of bottom line.

I have taken some economics courses and its not related to my field .

In your son case my opinion marketing is deviated from their route , instead of synchronizing with engineers

 

[htismaqe]

I have taken some economics courses and its not related to my field .

In your son case my opinion marketing is deviated from their route , instead of synchronizing with engineers

Marketing doesn't sync with engineers.

Engineers sync with marketing.

That's the reality of the corporate world, especially in publicly-traded companies.

 

[TonyH]

I have taken some economics courses and its not related to my field .

In your son case my opinion marketing is deviated from their route , instead of synchronizing with engineers

Hi,
You remember Chrysler almost tanked during '70s oil embargo? Then you'd know why Iaccoca introduced K cars.

 

[sfx2000]

Trying to get the thread back on topic...

Building a generic router platform - pretty straight-forward from a technology perspective - either using x86 or ARM, even though I would say that x86 is easier to deal with.

The real challenge is WiFi - when looking at WiFi chipsets, and available drivers that are compliant enough to be included in the Linux Kernel, the number of choices here are very limited, and nothing that is relatively current.

The choices here are ATH9K, which is limited to 802.11N (dual band), and is limited to max number of STA's at 7 at present - which is well below current needs/expectations of users - to get more, one need the binary blob from QC-Atheros to do much more...

The other option is the RT2800 driver, but this chipset is USB only, which impacts performance when in AP mode - that driver also has issues with HW Encryption support. To get more, one needs to talk with MediaTek and sign NDA's etc...

Broadcom's b43 open-source driver stops at a/b/g support, so this is a non-starter for the proposed discussion...

So, yes, it's totally possible to do an OpenSource GPL compliant router, but WiFi will be a challenge...

 

[sfx2000]

Hmmm... been mulling on this, along with another thread on the board...

While it might not be possible to do a totally OS free router/AP, it's totally do-able to build a FOSS open/EFF compatible device...

Would this be a good step forward?

I've got the design experience, and connections into the whitelabel ODM space, but the challenge here would be:

1) Fund development of the platform
2) Sustaining costs to support it
3) NRE to work with the ODM's to build it
4) Supply Chain - working with an ODM, we have to pay them upfront and FOB in production...
5) Sales/Marketing to get this device into the hands of users

Back of the napkin, it would be about $100USD to the end-user for a single band, single radio FOSS/EFF based device on 802.11n.

can't do it all myself, as I have a full time day job...

sfx

 

[4Leaf]

I would argue that "WE" are not typical consumers.

Sorry, but I'm a realist. The idea that things will change if we all "stick together" is just pure fantasy. We make up maybe 5-10% of the total consumer networking market I would guess.

The vast majority of consumers automatically assume newer=better and there's nothing at all you can do to change that. 50 years of rampant materialism aren't going to be undone overnight, if at all.

But this is probably a discussion for a political forum rather than this one...

I was speaking theoretically. In no way do I expect everything I said to have any kind of impact on your average consumer. I'm completely aware that your average consumer will most likely always be looking to get the newest products on the market. After all "If it's new, it must be better right?". Just to be clear, I also wasn't referring to just people on these forums when I mentioned "we consumers". I was referring to all consumers in general.

The main point I was trying to make is we need to be focusing on innovation and newer, better ideas about how to improve things. Focusing only on completing a product in time before the release date should not be the only objective. In time, people would begin to appreciate how much better their new products are instead of always complaining about what is wrong with them. In the end, the people always choose the better product. Not the most advertised one.

 

[Just Checking]

As a grown man i read and research about the majority of products i want to get then i compare my requirements vs. features + (router specs) + reviews (feedback)

I think we are far more than 30% of xyz router company customers. If we could reach another 20% of the xyz customers and educate the . We ll make a difference

when is the right time for a typical person to decide he needs to upgrade? Fashion ,real need, mislead by marketing ?

I do not believe that we are 30% or even 20% of the overall router/gateway market. The people in this forum are NOT your average consumer. Go to Amazon.com or eBay and see what they have for sale. Most of the stuff for sale is not high end routers. Then consider that the majority of consumers get their equipment from the ISP (Comcast, CenturyLink, ATT, Etc.). Those gateways are combo modem/router/WiFi radios and they are NOT high tech. At best, those have a 802.11n 2.4GHz single band radio with 4 T-1000 LAN ports and maybe a USB 3.0 port that performs poorly (at least all the ones I have tried are that way). The gateways have minimalistic Firmware with GUI's that hide any "exotic features" like VPN, DDNS, Port Forwarding, or IP assignments.

Most consumers just want their equipment to work without them touching it. They do not want to have to update firmware. They do not even want to know what firmware is. That is why Apple has been successful in the past. They provided equipment that allows their customers to do things (not the full range of things) without having to think about the hardware, or firmware. Now that Apple has been forced to start pushing out updates to their customers, many of their customers are rebelling (most of the people where I work who own iPhones are not accepting or loading the last update).

I talk all the time to my neighbor who is the CIO of a company and teaches networking classes. He has a RT-AC66 router as well as a gateway from his ISP (Xfinity). He occasionally updates the firmware on the Asus RT-AC66 router with stock firmware when he remembers but has never touched his Xfinity gateway. He runs a Double NAT and has problems because he refuses to even go through the procedure to put the gateway into transfer bridge mode. He even leaves the WiFi on with the gateway and clutters up the wireless band just because he cannot be bothered to figure out how to turn it off. My neighbor is more much more technically competent in network theory than I am but he still will not use open-source FW and basically ignores his hardware until it is non-functional and he is forced to fix it. That is the norm.

Router companies make their money selling new hardware. They do not make money selling FW. FW may be a differentiable way to choose between companies but, again, only a tiny fraction of the consumers know enough, or care enough, about it to make decisions based on FW. If the router companies really believed that they could gain market share by selling hardware with better FW, I believe they would do it that way. The reality is that router companies sell hardware and market it on that basis.

 

[azazel1024]

Exactly. If I were to take a guess, you'd find that the people on this board (or people like it) probably make up between 3-5% of the overall market. If you look at the more advanced users, either in terms of proficiency and/or those doing things like running alt firmware on their routers, now you are probably talking more like 1-2% of the overall market.

That isn't enough for a consumer router in general. If you expand the market to look at SMB/enterprise/business class gear, now you might be talking 15-30% of the total router/access point market. Now there is a big enough market to find very advanced routers with cool and awesome features, well supported firmware (because the market DEMANDS it), so on and so forth.

If you want that kind of stuff, you have to go pick from that market, not the consumer market. This really isn't like cameras where you have a vast "low end" market that is now mostly filled with cell phone cameras and some mid/high end market where you can sell dSLRs/Mirrorless cameras at a moderate premium and have hundreds of thousands of sales (or low millions). Networking isn't a hobby or profession (and if it is a profession, generally look at enterprise/business/SMB market) for 99.5% of people out there, so you aren't going to find "prosumer" routers and networking gear.

 

[htismaqe]

Router companies make their money selling new hardware. They do not make money selling FW. FW may be a differentiable way to choose between companies but, again, only a tiny fraction of the consumers know enough, or care enough, about it to make decisions based on FW. If the router companies really believed that they could gain market share by selling hardware with better FW, I believe they would do it that way. The reality is that router companies sell hardware and market it on that basis.

Take a look at the packaging.

They ARE marketing firmware - aka "features".

Sure, they're making money off of the hardware but it's the firmware that differentiates.

It's not that they believe they can gain market share by making BETTER firmware. They believe they can gain market share by making firmware with newer, more-exclusive features, which in turn DECREASE stability in most cases.

 

[IAAI]

http://www.flashrouters.com/

These guys sell overpriced routers just because they have DD-WRT flashed and configured and people do really buy them.

I know that you all answered this question but I will keep asking why not

We just need one networking company to believe in us and we support just their routers at the beginning . When we deliver what we promised + People believe in us , other brands will come begging to get supported.