Covering 8000 sqm complex on the sea

[svt11]

I have task to cover 8000 sqm complex on the sea. Complex has pool and about 12 houses. In every house there are 3 floors and I need good WiFi. There is LAN cable to every apartment in the house. I can tell you that max sqm of the floors are 120m2. There is no IPTV, but the speed of internet is 20-30mbps. I'm considering couple of variants


1st http://rts-bg.com/en/wireless-management-solution/615-neutron-series-wlan-starter-kit.html

Advice by the reseller was to put 2 in every house - on the 1st and 3rd floor respectively. Walls are brick, so to put dual-band like EAP 600 is useless I think.


2nd is again with indoor but with Mikrotik RB951G or RB2011 - I think 2 per house will cover everything also.

optionally I will need to reboot them with PoE switch putten in the underground floor, but for now they are expensive.


3rd is with outdoor antennas - again maybe sector antennas but problem is where to put them to get the signal and how many I will need. Also can you recommend me software for designing - using AutoCAD scheme. This is the AP to put.

http://rts-bg.com/en/outdoor-access-point/225-enh202-wireless-outdoor-ap.html

 

[L&LD]

The complex is on the sea? (Or, by the sea)? What does this piece of info have to do with the network?

Is the ISP speeds for all the houses or for each one? If for all, how many users per household consecutively will be using the network? Even for 12 users this sounds very restrictive to me.

Does the pool area need WiFi coverage too?

Even a hand drawn image of the layout would be helpful here.

 

[pete y testing]

I have task to cover 8000 sqm complex on the sea.

to be honest with you this sounds like your task is to go out and find someone with the experience and know how to do the job right the first time as this is certain not as simple as wacking in a few access points and hoping for the best

this is a large scale development that first needs the right backbone and gateway setup to control access and bandwidth and only once you have the backbones in place would you then consider that topology and layout of the access by doing a full site survey

this has ether been thrust on you as a task someone else believes you can do or you are taking on more than you can chew , this certainly isnt a task someone with a bit of experience with networking would take on as the end result would be far from acceptable to the end users and those that employ you

 

[sfx2000]

The complex is on the sea? (Or, by the sea)? What does this piece of info have to do with the network?

All that water would make RF a bit, erm, interesting for WiFI - this actually sounds like a fun project - would be happy to help out on-site for this one

 

[pete y testing]

would be happy to help out on-site for this one

dont forget yer scuba gear lol

 

[System Error Message]

for mikrotik i suggest the RB9xx series as they are cheaper than the RB2011 and have better wifi. They also are compact having only the things you need for APs.

See if you can try before you buy. There are outdoor APs that work but you must remember that the client must also be able to talk back so you even with a 1KW AP it wont help if clients cant reach back to it. All you need is an AP to sample and a laptop to test.

Since you are wiring them that is a good option to improve performance. Wireless AC is better because it supports non AC much better. Its not just the protocol but the better chips and RF design that make them perform better. Mikrotik has 1 or 2 models of the RB9xx series with wireless AC. If POE is what you need than it would be much simpler to use non consumer and some APs even have zero handoff. I think what you will need is compatibility rather than performance mainly because things like apple and non apple can be incompatible or have problems and i imagine a housing area on the sea would usually be luxurious so there is bound to be apple hardware and a bunch of tenants who dont appreciate things.

 

[svt11]

OK, first of all I'm CCNA and complex is by the sea, sorry for my English. OK, I've got laptop which is one of the cheapest of HPs - I think it's adapter is not powerful enough to return the signal, so it will be OK for test. I've installed inSSIDer. Ofcourse I want to learn how to do this site survey. I know for the channels and SNR, I also know that for every brand AP there is different minimum dBm. Every house will have max 20clients.
Backbone I know how to build - I can say that one of the problems is with it, because from the entry point we don't have separate cable ran till every house, only to one house, then there is cable ran to the next -> then again to the next house and etc. We've got problems with the ISP also which are crucial. We're going to install at the entry point central router like Mikrotik CCR1009 and smart switch, patch panels etc. We will ran from the switch separate cables till each house as I said and will separate VLAN's. I will write in advance more...

 

[System Error Message]

If you're using POE for everything than the CCR1009 is a good choice for its speed and POE in capability. I suggest the actively cooled one because of your location and for the slightly higher clocked CPU and you also get SFP+ and other goodies. You must however make sure you have a POE switch with good PSU output, your plan is good and your main concern really is just wifi coverage. The longer the cable the more power /voltage loss there will be when using POE so you will have to account to that by using active POE and taking into account wattage requirements. Keep the wiring to as minimal length as possible and avoid the switched ports on the CCR if you can.

I would suggest not using mikrotik switches despite the choice of going all mikrotik with this one entirely. Ubiquiti and other brands do have managed POE switches and what switch you get depends mainly on the features and POE power output it can provide. Make sure all devices support active POE as it will help to overcome the problems posed by cable length and while there are unmanaged POE switches which are cheaper i suggest for using managed because it lets you view and configure POE. The CCR is actually fast enough to do all the vlan routing that the switch doesnt actually need to do anything and the actively cooled one should have SFP+ but getting a managed POE switch with SFP+ could be expensive. You only need 1 CCR1009 to handle the traffic of all 12 houses especially if you use SFP+ and give them all gigabit internet and not do NAT. If your budget was for a CCR1009 at every entry point go up higher and get 1 CCR1016 or 1036 depending on your port and speed requirements. The RB9xx is fast enough to do CPU Vlan bridging at gigabit speeds (2Gb/s) while the CCR can handle all the traffic(bridging/routing) and WAN if 30Mb/s is the internet everyone person gets.

For the AP mikrotik APs lack some hardware wireless capability that doesnt affect normal use, however they may have features like band steering implemented via software instead. Just remember to make sure that they support active POE and check the switch about supplying different voltages through different ports. When it comes to supporting large numbers of wireless users mikrotik does well in that as long as the CPU isnt overloaded. Some ubiquiti APs have issues with many simultaneous clients but there are many brands you can choose from all with different functionalities including cluster management. Ive seen some complaints on mikrotik forums about their integrated wireless units hanging but those complaints are quite few so if you're buying in bulk make sure to test them for reliability and get them replaced before the warranty ends. If you monitor the temperature and disable all non required features you might be able to avoid some of the issues. You can also clock down the CPU if its not fully used if temperature is an issue.

You can also find an example config i have here in the router section however QoS and load balancing tutorial wont be up till July which is when i get a new ISP and can actually use it properly. You wont have to worry about hardware acceleration when using the CCR but if you are interested i explained what you can potentially do with it if you wish to hardware accelerate some traffic. Its interesting that routerOS lets you in some non obvious way control hardware accelerated traffic which other routers havent yet managed to let you except for x86. The CCR1009 should be good for up to 5Gb/s of software NAT which means 2.5Gb/s of symmetrical internet without using hardware acceleration. Just search for mikrotik example config in title. One underutilised feature of routerOS which its not very good at is with a usb drive you can use it as a proxy cache. Its not as good as squid and im not sure if it works for https in transparent configuration. The USB power on the CCR isnt very good (it froze my raspberry pi 2) so either use an SSD or externally powered hard drive. Its not the pi's fault because it doesnt freeze when powered from my ubiquiti edgerouter. I have the best of both worlds and i can tell you that from experience mikrotik is the better router but ubiquiti is more versatile in the edgerouter's OS that it lets you install linux software.

 

[svt11]

The biggest problem are the money, and I'm going to give up in some day. OK, the central switch unfortunately won't have cable run to every access point, but till the switch of each house located in the basement. I think I'm going to install either unmanaged PoE switch at each house or Mikrotik RB260GSP. Or maybe Cisco, or Netgear 5-port/8-port PoE - maybe Netgear GS110TP. And by the way there are power surges often. There is no protection and switches get stuck often. Listen, requirements are not so big as you think. I can't see having IPTV in the future 2-3 years.

 

[System Error Message]

If your budget is small i suggest going with a single CCR1009, a single switch and more wiring. You should weigh the cost of having a single many port switch with POE and more wiring to having many smaller switches with POE. I still suggest against using mikrotik switches since i have one and they lack very basic important things like STP so they can hang because of a loop created by routing rather than wiring. Go with managed POE because you will get frustrated with unmanaged if you cant see whats going on.

There are many good switches when it comes to semi managed and POE. Cisco is obviously very good but other brands tend to lack on some things which they dont exactly say. For only providing 2 APs per house, 5 ports is enough but you can go with 8 ports if you feel more things will be plugged in. If you go with 8 ports and semi managed you will have the option to trunk ports in the future when bandwidth requirements increase. I've read that within the same line of netgear prosafes they dont all support the same features for example it may not support the commonly used port trunking type today but overall as long as its not a d-link switch you will be fine. Try to find an interface demo to see what it has before you get them.

Ideally you should wire every house to a central switch but in your case if bandwidth requirements are low and budget is low just chain the switches if they are gigabit switches. So connect one house to the next like you said and terminate at the CCR1009 so you wont need a central switch for now. The CCR1009 is fast enough to handle your multiple ISPs and LAN without requiring a switch but make sure to avoid using the switched ports on the CCR for performance and feature reasons.

For protection you could hack the hardware to insert a battery pack. If you search mikrotik forums people have done it with some routerboards. The CCR1009 thats passively cooled has the adapter outside so you can easily use a battery pack outside as theres no DC-AC conversion as the input on the back is DC whereas for the actively cooled one it has 2 PSUs, POE in so to add a battery may need to be done on the inside. NiMH batteries are currently cheap for their capacity instead of lithium and weight isnt an issue. If you plan to build your own battery backup make sure to check the brand of batteries carefully and you will need to provide a battery to every switch. Use the wattage ratings to calculate how much capacity you will really need and how long would you need it for. Most switches have the PSU on the outside which makes this cheap and easy to build yourself.

If you connect the charger to the battery and battery to equipment the battery can be used to stabilise the power incase power supplied is bad. Since you are buying 12 switches and 24 APs, see if you can get a bulk discount. The actively cooled CCR may be better for you because of your location especially if you're placing them at the basement but if there is good cooling you can use the passively cooled one. if you wish to power the CCR from POE make sure the POE switch has a beefy PSU. Mikrotik puts the wattage ratings of their routers and APs on their website so it will tell you how much power you need and if you add the switch's own ratings will tell you how much the POE switch must be able to give and how much in batteries do you need.

Make sure there is some warranty because if your switches do freeze and its not a question of power or settings than you should get another model/brand so you will have to return them and get a different one.

 

[svt11]

I see now that some cables must be longer than 100m. I will need optical, but question here is will I need multi-mode or single-mode cables, cause some of them have some sagging radius. Also do I need special tools for terminating them, I don't have experience in this. Good UPS will be online, but I seriously doubt it we'll have money for it. I heard CyberPower Online versions are good enough. There are 3-4 houses which need cables over 100m, I've already think I've got one with SFP at Sofia, I surely will use SFP on the Mikrotik router also.

 

[System Error Message]

im a bit confused are you wiring the houses through a centre point or wiring them like a bus from one house to another?
The length for ethernet shouldnt exceed 100M between 2 devices not the total length. So if you wire using a bus like setup and the distance between one house and another exceeds 100m you may have a problem so try to see if it is also possible by wiring everything to a center point to see if it helps. Otherwise you will need fibre optics. The other option is a wireless AC wifi bridge using directional/dishes has a much better range and sufficient performance.

Multimode/singlemode may differ by cabling and range so make sure you check that. Mikrotik RB9xx series have a single SFP slot on them unless you get the more expensive ones which lack the latest wifi standard which means more cost in buying the wifi AC cards. When it comes to fibre go with the cheaper/more robust one if cabling is a concern but make sure you at least have gigabit.

for UPS you can build your own which would be cheaper. For the safer but still cheap method is to buy a used good UPS which the battery has already worn out, preferably NIMH as they are very cheap for their capacity right now compared to lithium and are much better than lead acid batteries. Than check the battery voltage and you can just buy your own NIMH batteries and get much more capacity cheaper however you should be aware of the UPS power limits as well. It is however cheaper and more efficient to have the UPS as part of the power supply, a bit like what google does in which the PSU only supplies 1 voltage and theres a battery also connected although people dont manufacture things like that so you may need to hack a bit to add a battery.