Gigabyte switch

[jorona]

Hello gurus,

I have a 2 office areas withing the same building that spans over 500 feet that is linked with one cat 5 cable (amazingly) and 2 small net gear switches. A common complaint is consistantly slow response (no brainer). I believe the only way to improve their speed is to go with 2 gigabyte switches at each end connected with fiber. Any good suggestions on switches that are gig ready for small office productuon. The company is non profit and cannot afford the enterprise Ciscos and Aruba flavors of the world. Any suggestions or alternatives would greatly be appreciated.

 

[L&LD]

I would be looking at inserting a switch somewhere in the middle of that much too long run.

If the 2 small switches currently installed are 1GBe rated, then that should solve most latency problems.

If not, buy three new identical switches (1GBe, of course) and replace the end points and insert one in the middle. Coming from the single long run and from 10/100Mbps speeds to 1GBe connections will make a night and day difference to the network's throughput capacity.

Nothing here suggests enterprise class equipment. Simply keeping less than 100M runs between devices is all that is needed.

 

[Cloud200]

Hello gurus,

I have a 2 office areas withing the same building that spans over 500 feet that is linked with one cat 5 cable (amazingly) and 2 small net gear switches. A common complaint is consistantly slow response (no brainer). I believe the only way to improve their speed is to go with 2 gigabyte switches at each end connected with fiber. Any good suggestions on switches that are gig ready for small office productuon. The company is non profit and cannot afford the enterprise Ciscos and Aruba flavors of the world. Any suggestions or alternatives would greatly be appreciated.

First off lets get some basics on wants/needs
How many ports do you need in each location? 24 or 48?
Does the switch need to be rack mountable?
Do all the ports need to be Gigabit or only the uplinks?

Do any of the following sound attractive to you? Remember, that every time you say yes the price goes up;
POE ports to power Phones, IP cameras, Wireless access points.
Fanless operation (some switches can sound like leafblowers).
The ability to bond 2 or more uplinks together for speed and reliability.
802.1q VLANs or Private VLANs.

Edit:
If you want to avoid the cost and headache of Fiber (both the physical shielding as well as the SFPs), you can do what L&LD said and get a switch in between.

Personally I would get 3 switches.
The MDF (the main one) and IDF (secondary) switch would support at least LACP.
The one in the middle would be an 8 port like a Cisco SMB SG200.
Bond 2 links from the MDF to the middle
Bond 2 links from the middle to the IDF

 

[coxhaus]

There are lots of switches which support fiber. Multimode is what you are looking for in fiber. Single mode will be too expensive and you don’t need the long distance single mode will do. I would buy the switches first and connect with a fiber patch cable. This way you can test before having someone install the main run. You will want the fiber terminated in panel as fiber can break moving it too much. Then attach fiber jumpers to panel and then to switch. You will have 2 strands of fiber jumpers on end of the main run coming out of panels on each end as one is transmit and one is receive. Fiber always runs in pairs. Also buy glass over plastic. There are different sizes of fiber and different connector’s styles. Standardize with what you get with the switch buy and use all the same. I don’t think one run of multimode will cost that much. Make sure you run 2 pairs so you have a back up. Price both single pair and 2 pairs I think you will find the cost about the same.


Before I buy fiber I would install a couple of copper bases switches with statistics so you can make sure your slowness is errors on the long 500 copper run. You are over spec but I have run 100 meg 440 feet before with good luck.


PS

Another option is to buy a couple of fiber transceivers. They will convert copper to fiber and you won’t have to buy expensive switches.

 

[L&LD]

Cloud200, if I'm reading the post correctly, there is only a single run connecting the office areas.

Fiber would possibly take care of the too long run (for CAT5) now in place, but if running fiber was an option, better to run multiple CAT5e runs to a middle switch as suggested and have the necessary ports available on the switches on each end to accommodate the clients there and the LACP connections too.

The cheapest is still to simply add a middle (1GBe capable) router and if the end routers are not 1GBe capable, upgrade those too. This will give an order of magnitude improvement, if not more (assuming many resend errors from the long connection run currently used).

 

[coxhaus]

Fiber would possibly take care of the too long run (for CAT5) now in place, but if running fiber was an option, better to run multiple CAT5e runs to a middle switch as suggested and have the necessary ports available on the switches on each end to accommodate the clients there and the LACP connections too.

The cheapest is still to simply add a middle (1GBe capable) router and if the end routers are not 1GBe capable, upgrade those too. This will give an order of magnitude improvement, if not more (assuming many resend errors from the long connection run currently used).

By the time you have made multiple runs of copper in the middle and terminated it all you will have spent as much as one fiber run will cost. If you were going to run the copper yourself then run the fiber yourself and just pay someone to terminate it.

 

[Cloud200]

By the time you have made multiple runs of copper in the middle and terminated it all you will have spent as much as one fiber run will cost. If you were going to run the copper yourself then run the fiber yourself and just pay someone to terminate it.

So the difference comes down to pricing out:
4+ strand fiber, conduit where exposed unless the fiber is armored, a fiber patch panel, fiber patch cables, sfp modules or media converters, and termination by a third party.
VS
8 port smart/managed switch, 1000ft box of CAT5e, handful of 8p8c crimp on modules, 110 style patch panel, patch cables (don't make your own unless you have stranded CAT5e cable).

One huge factor in favor of fiber is immunity to electrical noise, so if you are passing by a bunch of electrical lines (parallel, not perpendicular) the extra cost may be worth it regardless.

 

[azazel1024]

So the difference comes down to pricing out:
4+ strand fiber, conduit where exposed unless the fiber is armored, a fiber patch panel, fiber patch cables, sfp modules or media converters, and termination by a third party.
VS
8 port smart/managed switch, 1000ft box of CAT5e, handful of 8p8c crimp on modules, 110 style patch panel, patch cables (don't make your own unless you have stranded CAT5e cable).

One huge factor in favor of fiber is immunity to electrical noise, so if you are passing by a bunch of electrical lines (parallel, not perpendicular) the extra cost may be worth it regardless.

It is also better future proofing to run the fiber as well as less things to fail, need to manage and maintain as well as locate.

You need to find a place where you can locate the switch where it can be powered, out of the way (physically and environmentally) and you also have the issue that if you want it to be future proof for 10GbE SOME day (just thinking 5, 10, 20 years down the road), you'll have to run Cat6a...which good cable is actually MORE expensive than fiber.

Even 10GbE if you run the right fiber, it'll support 10GbE over a distance of 500ft.

If it is just too hard to run all new cable, then I'd just locate the mid point of the run, cut it, terminate with keystones and slap a switch in the middle.

500ft is well beyond spec for gigabit for Cat5. Well beyond for Cat5e even or Cat6. Heck it is beyond spec on all of them for 100Mbps. At least with something like 5e/6 you'd be a bit more likely to actually support gigabit speeds or at least solid 100Mbps due to the better noise resistance of 5e/6 as well as the thicker gauge wiring (less noise, lower attenuation).

 

[Cloud200]

What about something really simple like a POE powered Switch/Bridge/Extender ?

 

[azazel1024]

What about something really simple like a POE powered Switch/Bridge/Extender ?

250ft is beyond the distance that most POE can operate at. So you'd likely need to sprinkle 2 over 500ft to power each one (from the main switch on each side). Getting mighty expensive, since you'll need POE capable switches on each side and POE powerable switches in the relay.

some fiber GBIC modules and laying the fiber would be a lot cheaper.

Or just drop a simple switch in the middle if you have power there and cross your fingers that it works better.

 

[L&LD]

I may be wrong, but the cost vs. benefits of fiber does not add up at this time.

Running multiple CAT6a cables may be as expensive as fiber, but the capability of 10GBe switches offer and their cost in a few short years will still be less than the associated fiber equipment. No?

Either way, I think jorona indicated that the non profit doesn't have the money for large changes such as these.

One new switch (1GBe) or three if the current end point switches are not 1GBe capable and they're done.

Could be as simple as a $20 to $60 BOM.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000N99BBC/?tag=snbforums-20

 

[Cloud200]

250ft is beyond the distance that most POE can operate at. So you'd likely need to sprinkle 2 over 500ft to power each one (from the main switch on each side). Getting mighty expensive, since you'll need POE capable switches on each side and POE powerable switches in the relay.

some fiber GBIC modules and laying the fiber would be a lot cheaper.

Or just drop a simple switch in the middle if you have power there and cross your fingers that it works better.

Why do you say expensive?
Injector $40
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BK4W8TQ/?tag=snbforums-20
Repeater $70
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007XAPKC8/?tag=snbforums-20

Thats a HECK of a lot cheaper than a pair of SFP modules.
You only need 1 Injector, not 2.

 

[coxhaus]

If you install copper have it certified because you never know when someone is going to pull too hard or turn to sharp of a corner. They might lay it across some fluorescent lights. Those kind of problems can drive you nuts.

I assume you know you don't use patch cable wire. You will use soild strand CAT cable what ever your flavor is.

 

[Cloud200]

If you install copper have it certified because you never know when someone is going to pull too hard or turn to sharp of a corner. They might lay it across some fluorescent lights. Those kind of problems can drive you nuts.

I assume you know you don't use patch cable wire. You will use soild strand CAT cable what ever your flavor is.

If you install fiber have it certified as well

 

[coxhaus]

If you install fiber have it certified as well

Yes. The installers really like it when they know it's not going to be certified. They pull like hell and don't care.

 

[azazel1024]

Why do you say expensive?
Injector $40
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BK4W8TQ/?tag=snbforums-20
Repeater $70
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007XAPKC8/?tag=snbforums-20

Thats a HECK of a lot cheaper than a pair of SFP modules.
You only need 1 Injector, not 2.

True...but you were talking about 4 pairs, which makes it $440 total, plus the wiring.

For fiber, last I checked, you can typically get SFP modules for $40 a pop new, which is $320 for 4 pairs of modules, plus fiber cost.

Since SFP modules are a dime a dozen, you can likely get 4-pairs/8 modules for probably less than $100 if you buy one of the 10-pack bulk buys you can find on eBay and elsewhere frequently. Pre-terminated fiber is often roughly the same price as Cat6a and/or a somewhat cheaper, which means that fiber for the run is likely cheaper, because of the cost of the relay and power injector.

 

[Cloud200]

True...but you were talking about 4 pairs, which makes it $440 total, plus the wiring.

For fiber, last I checked, you can typically get SFP modules for $40 a pop new, which is $320 for 4 pairs of modules, plus fiber cost.

Since SFP modules are a dime a dozen, you can likely get 4-pairs/8 modules for probably less than $100 if you buy one of the 10-pack bulk buys you can find on eBay and elsewhere frequently. Pre-terminated fiber is often roughly the same price as Cat6a and/or a somewhat cheaper, which means that fiber for the run is likely cheaper, because of the cost of the relay and power injector.

The way the repeaters and injectors work are as follows:
MDF Switch-->Injector-->---250ft--->Repeater-->---250ft--->IDF Switch
If the link is really REALLY far you can do this as well:
MDF Switch-->Injector-->---200ft--->Repeater-->---200ft--->Repeater-->---200ft--->IDF Switch
You can Daisy them like 4 or 5 times no problem.


As for the cost of Fiber,
Basic Armored OM3 Multimode Fiber costs about $2-3 a foot preterminated.
You still need a $150 patch panel on either end including the LC-LC plate

Cat6a (Shielded because why not) costs me roughly $0.25 a foot.
Get an empty Surface mount box and some Cat6a Keystones to terminate for about $30

I still don't see how it is cheaper.

 

[azazel1024]

You don't have to go with OM3 or armored necessarily.

The mention on needing 4 is you originally mentioned doing a run of 4 cables, which would mean 4 repeaters and injectors, or at the very least an injector and a POE powered switch, plus all of the Cat6a.

You also don't need a patch panel and LC-LC plate.

 

[Cloud200]

You don't have to go with OM3 or armored necessarily.

The mention on needing 4 is you originally mentioned doing a run of 4 cables, which would mean 4 repeaters and injectors, or at the very least an injector and a POE powered switch, plus all of the Cat6a.

You also don't need a patch panel and LC-LC plate.

I respectfully disagree.
Unless you are using single strand single mode BiDi connections with a pair of SFPs designed for it you need a way to protect your fiber cables. The fanout of most fiber cables is where the strands are most likely to break. Thats what needs to be protected by the patch panel. OFC you need to connect the cable to patch cables and thats what the LC-LC plate is for.

Also, why bother with OM2 if you are trying to compare to Cat6a, It will only do 1gbe.

 

[coxhaus]

I may have mis stated as I ment to say 4 strands 2 pairs of fiber multimode. 4 pairs are getting a little more expensive.

Don’t use armored unless you are going string it on poles. We had a whole campus done this way and squirrels still managed to chew through it any way.