MOCA on multiple lines

[rpmartinez1987]

I'm helping out a co-worker redo his home internet by installing multiple Access points and hard wiring all of his streaming boxes, PCs and game consoles.
I'm going to use Moca for all of this.
Before, I go off buying things just wanted to run this setup by you guys.

His internet line (200 Mbps) comes in from one end of his basement to another and then immediately goes up to the Spectrum All in One Modem, Router, Access Point, telephone box,
that is installed in his wife's office on the 1st floor of the 2 story house.

My plan is to split the incoming cable with a 2-Way MOCA 5-1675Mhz Splitter.
One end would go straight to the modem and the other will go into the INPUT port of the PPC Entry Series Active Return 9-Port MoCA Amplifier Model: PPC-9M-U/U
The reason for this split is because right now he has a Docsis 3.0 modem but one day it might be 3.1

I, then plan on connecting the MOCA adapter to one of the LAN ports on the modem/router and connecting the coax end of the adapter to the Passive (voice) Out Port.
I would then connect the Coax cables that lead to the multiple rooms in the house to the remaining output ports of the PPC-9M-U/U.

On the other end I'll connect a MOCA adapter to either access points, switches or streaming boxes.

Will this setup work? And do you guys have any Moca brand adapter recommendations.
I'm planning on going with Actiontec but would like to know your thoughts on other recommendations.

Thanks

​

 

[krkaufman]

Re: adapters... the goCoax WF-803M MoCA 2.5 adapters are the best current value, at $60 per.

As for the proposed topology, it would seem to require 2 separate coax lines between the central junction (where the 2-way splitter and amp will be located) and the 1st floor office (where the combo modem/router is located). Are the separate coax lines available, or would the gateway be relocated in the proposed setup?

Also, if looking to isolate the eventual DOCSIS 3.1 signals from the MoCA network using an initial 2-way split, and restricting all MoCA signals below a secondary splitter (the amp w/ built-in "PoE" MoCA filter in the proposed setup), the top-level 2-way splitter needn't be MoCA-compatible, since no MoCA signals would ever pass through it.

Re: the amplifier... what is driving the need for an amplifier? Does or will your friend also subscribe to cable TV services, or will they only ever be using Spectrum/cable for Internet? (The amplifier wouldn't provide any benefit in a MoCA-only setup, outside its built-in "PoE" MoCA filter.)

 

[rpmartinez1987]

Can you elaborate on why you think I would need to separate coax lines? The Gateway can be relocated to the basement.
And I can run an ethernet cable to the 1st floor office and put an Access Point there.

Can you recommend a 2-way splitter for us to use at the top level?

As for the amplifier the main reason is because of the customer reviews.. a lot of people have done similar things to what we're doing..so I figured stay with what's working for others... They cut all their cable tv services about a year ago..and they'll only be using spectrum/cable for internet for the foreseeable future...but he did mention FIOS is slowly making it's way towards his neighborhood...so there's a chance for that down the line.

Also this is his combo modem/router/telephone box do you think it'd be possible to get our own separate modem.
For instance do I have to use this box because of their telephone services. Or can I speak to Spectrum and get something just for the telephone and go out and purchase our own modem..?

 

[degrub]

Please sketch out a plan view layout with all the cable routes , wall terminations, and devices for each floor.

Is all of the coax point to point (basement to each endpoint) or are there splitters in the wall or at the wall plate ?

If it is all point to point, for highest bandwidth, you can put a moca modem at each end of each cable in service. If bandwidth is not an issue (say 100 mbit/endpoint being adequate), then you can place one moca modem at the main splitter and one at each end point device. They will share and contend for the total bandwidth available. i would use goCoax moca 2.5 in the latter case.

If you have to allow DOCCIS3.1 on the internal coax, then you will loose at least one channel of the 5 available for MOCA2.5 and likely operate at less than gigbit for the goCOAX modems. If you can isolate the internal coax from the DOCCIS3.1 signals, then you can get full Gbit between each point to point or shared across the multi-drop.

FIOS should only cause an issue if they resume TV or other services requiring a box connected across the coax to the FIOS modem. If you can isolate, all the better.

i run a pair of goCOAX 2.5 modems for my dedicated home run from an ATT ONT to the ATT router getting 930-940 Mbit/s which is max. From there i pass through a CiscoRV325 (double NAT, 4 VLAN) switch port to each dedicated Actiontec bonded pair MOCA2 coax run to my APs and other devices ( a physical star layout). This gives me an implicit bandwidth limit for each drop of around 5-600MBit/s. The router is the limiting factor for any contention (no QOS) . i have 4 Cisco 371 APs running 5 GHz only. The layout supports 4-5 hardwired PCs/Macs for business and college as well as all the wireless clients they bring plus a couple digital TVs and a HDHomeRun OTA to streaming TV box across MOCA as well as straight OTA TV signal to one ancient Sony tube TV.
Rock solid and no reboots except for firmware updates.

 

[rpmartinez1987]

I'm horrible at drawings..
On the 2nd splitter (8 Port Amplifier) Input port, I, plan on connecting the Moca that's directly connected to the modem/router.
Then a Moca modem at each end of each cable in service that should give me the highest bandwidth..right?

The initial splitter should isolate the docsis signal from the Moca signal..right?
And he currently has a docsis 3.0 modem but maybe one day in the future it'll be 3.1

 

[degrub]

View attachment 29954

I'm horrible at drawings..
On the 2nd splitter (8 Port Amplifier) Input port, I, plan on connecting the Moca that's directly connected to the modem/router.
Then a Moca modem at each end of each cable in service that should give me the highest bandwidth..right?

The initial splitter should isolate the docsis signal from the Moca signal..right?
And he currently has a docsis 3.0 modem but maybe one day in the future it'll be 3.1

the initial splitter will not do any isolation.
If you want max bandwidth to each room, replace the 8 port amplified ( should be 0 gain if you use it for moca) with an 8 port unmanaged ethernet switch ( assuming you don't need managed). Then one moca modem on each end of each coax. The only way to block DOCCIS signals is to either have a high pass filter blocking all below ~1100 MHz or physically isolate the coax.

If you need the DOCCIS signals to go to devices other than the ISP modem, then you will need the moca splitter as shown with the embedded moca POE filter on the input or a separate filter. Otherwise, you don't need the 2 way initial splitter

 

[rpmartinez1987]

the initial splitter will not do any isolation.
If you want max bandwidth to each room, replace the 8 port amplified ( should be 0 gain if you use it for moca) with an 8 port unmanaged ethernet switch ( assuming you don't need managed). Then one moca modem on each end of each coax. The only way to block DOCCIS signals is to either have a high pass filter blocking all below ~1100 MHz or physically isolate the coax.

If you need the DOCCIS signals to go to devices other than the ISP modem, then you will need the moca splitter as shown with the embedded moca POE filter on the input or a separate filter. Otherwise, you don't need the 2 way initial splitter

In your scenario would the 8 port ethernet switch be directly connected to the modem/router?
How would I feed Moca to the ethernet and the other coax wires?

 

[degrub]

MOCA is an ethernet extender. Just a different cable type. So i can go from the ISP lan port to the ethernet port of the moca adapter, across coax, through next moca adapter, out its ethernet port to the switch lan port. repeat as needed from any ethernet lan port. Read how my network is layed out above.

 

[rpmartinez1987]

Sir, you just blew my mind.
Thank you.. I have to re-think everything now..lol..
Thank you a lot!

 

[rpmartinez1987]

MOCA is an ethernet extender. Just a different cable type. So i can go from the ISP lan port to the ethernet port of the moca adapter, across coax, through next moca adapter, out its ethernet port to the switch lan port. repeat as needed from any ethernet lan port. Read how my network is layed out above.

Actually now that I fully think of it.. Wouldn't this be a much more expensive route since now I need to buy 2 MoCa adapters per room? One on the transmitting end that's connected to the network switch and the other connected to the wall receiving the signal..?

 

[degrub]

that would be correct. That is why you can use the moca splitter and only have one moca modem in each remote location ( up to 16 total) . So the total = N remote locations +1 (head in location) versus total = 2N + 2 (head in location).

How you design depends on the use case. Generally, household use would be fine with the multidrop case (N+1).

 

[rpmartinez1987]

Ok but just so I've got this clear.. If I go with 1N + 1 = 100Mbps but if I go with 2N + 2 = 1 gigabit...?

 

[degrub]

The 1N+1 case depends on the amount of contention between the nodes. 100Mbps is just an illustrative example. If there is no contention between nodes, then you get full bonded pair bandwidth between the two communicating nodes.
2N+2 cases allows each moca segment to operate independently as a bonded pair. In the case of GoCoax 2.5, the result is around 930Mbps.
The 2N+2 case moves any contention to the router or switch uplink to the router. Moca2 bonded pair will be around 500-600Mbps if i remember correctly.

multiple users at any node will contend for the node's bandwidth to get on moca network no matter if it is a 1N+1 or 2N+2 design.

In practical terms most home use would have difficulty saturating a 100mbit link rate but it depends on the use case of course.
My 18/3 Mbps ISP link was fine for 2 VPN + casual use case. Once a gamer was added, i had to buy additional bandwidth because the slowdown started to be noticeable at times. Gbit fiber was no different in cost to 100MBps fiber, so the decision was easy. 100Mbps would have been more than sufficient.

Internet usage is also dependent on the server at the other end as well as the internet routing more than what we have in the house with MOCA and Gbps ethernet interfaces. The PC/Laptop/Phone is more likely to be the limiting device.

For many routers, if QOS is turned on or other applications are running (DPI for example), the throughput can drop by 50% or more.

 

[rpmartinez1987]

Thank you.
Got one last question about different brand MoCA adapters.
The only other experience I have with MoCA is when I helped out another friend about 3 years ago.
His was very simple..his comcast modem/router had MoCA built in so we just placed a MoCA adapter in his upstairs bedroom and connected an Access Point to it. It's still going strong.
I used Actiontec MoCA adapters at that time... Other than price is there a reason why you recommend the goCOAX adapters over Actiontec?

 

[degrub]

i have both AT6200 and GoCoax 2.5. Both have been fine. i have had two wall wart power supplies die on the ATs, but otherwise i would only choose the bandwidth i needed. i use the GoCoax to handle my trunk line from the ONT to the ATT modem so i maintain full Gbps up/down and the rest are AT6200 pairs for lower bandwidth required.

 

[krkaufman]

Can you elaborate on why you think I would need to separate coax lines?

The DOCSIS 3.1 and MoCA specs define overlapping frequencies (unlike w/ DOCSIS 3.0 and prior, which knew their place! ), so a MoCA setup where DOCSIS 3.1 gear is present, or where a provider has begun using D3.1 frequencies above 1002 MHz, would need to take the issue into consideration. The best long-term solution is to remedy any frequency conflicts by isolating the DOCSIS 3.1 gear and signal path from the MoCA network. (Other short-term workarounds are possible, but can be left out of the conversation since you can seemingly jump to the preferred long-term solution.)

This is what I *thought* you were trying to do based on your description from the OP:

My plan is to split the incoming cable with a 2-Way MOCA 5-1675Mhz Splitter. One end would go straight to the modem and the other will go into the INPUT port of the PPC Entry Series Active Return 9-Port MoCA Amplifier Model: PPC-9M-U/U

The reason for this split is because right now he has a Docsis 3.0 modem but one day it might be 3.1

I, then plan on connecting the MOCA adapter to one of the LAN ports on the modem/router and connecting the coax end of the adapter to the Passive (voice) Out Port.

With the spec'd amp having a built-in "PoE" MoCA filter, the MoCA network would have then been isolated to the output ports of the amp, and the modem and its path to the provider isolated from your MoCA signals.

As for the amplifier the main reason is because of the customer reviews.. a lot of people have done similar things to what we're doing..so I figured stay with what's working for others... They cut all their cable tv services about a year ago..and they'll only be using spectrum/cable for internet for the foreseeable future...but he did mention FIOS is slowly making it's way towards his neighborhood...so there's a chance for that down the line.

If there aren't any cable TV signals to deliver to the other (non-modem) coax outlets in the house, keep it simple and leave the amplifier out, as (1) amplifiers only amplify signals in the sub-MoCA frequency range, and (2) any amplifier installed today may not meet future requirements.

So, just use a "PoE" MoCA filter and an appropriately-sized MoCA 2.0-compatible splitter as your secondary splitter to service the MoCA-infused portion of your coax plant. You would end up with a setup similar to the following, though the exact setup may vary based on what coax lines are available, whether you string any additional Cat5e lines, where you decide to locate the gateway, etc.

​

Of course, the above scheme still has cable TV/Internet signals being sent to the MoCA-only (non-modem) outlets ... which is unnecessary for the near-term setup, as well as needlessly cutting the signal strength delivered to the gateway. There's no better way to isolate the DOCSIS 3.1 signals and modem from the MoCA network than actually having no coax link between them whatsoever; and the provider can't point fingers at your MoCA network if/when having gateway connectivity issues if the MoCA network is physically isolated from the DOCSIS path.

e.g.:

​

 

[krkaufman]

And I can run an ethernet cable to the 1st floor office

Anywhere you can run a Cat5e/6 line rather than using MoCA for linking locations, do so. Your friend/co-worker would be grateful (assuming the extraordinary and they'd understand the technical difference, not just budget ).

That said, an Ethernet line between the central junction location and the 1st floor Office would be especially useful/critical, both as a means of effecting the DOCSIS 3.1 & MoCA isolation, but also for a possible future FiOS install, allowing greater flexibility in the FiOS gateway placement.

 

[rpmartinez1987]

The DOCSIS 3.1 and MoCA specs define overlapping frequencies (unlike w/ DOCSIS 3.0 and prior, which knew their place! ), so a MoCA setup where DOCSIS 3.1 gear is present, or where a provider has begun using D3.1 frequencies above 1002 MHz, would need to take the issue into consideration. The best long-term solution is to remedy any frequency conflicts by isolating the DOCSIS 3.1 gear and signal path from the MoCA network. (Other short-term workarounds are possible, but can be left out of the conversation since you can seemingly jump to the preferred long-term solution.)

This is what I *thought* you were trying to do based on your description from the OP:

​

With the spec'd amp having a built-in "PoE" MoCA filter, the MoCA network would have then been isolated to the output ports of the amp, and the modem and its path to the provider isolated from your MoCA signals.



If there aren't any cable TV signals to deliver to the other (non-modem) coax outlets in the house, keep it simple and leave the amplifier out, as (1) amplifiers only amplify signals in the sub-MoCA frequency range, and (2) any amplifier installed today may not meet future requirements.

So, just use a "PoE" MoCA filter and an appropriately-sized MoCA 2.0-compatible splitter as your secondary splitter to service the MoCA-infused portion of your coax plant. You would end up with a setup similar to the following, though the exact setup may vary based on what coax lines are available, whether you string any additional Cat5e lines, where you decide to locate the gateway, etc.

View attachment 29987​

Of course, the above scheme still has cable TV/Internet signals being sent to the MoCA-only (non-modem) outlets ... which is unnecessary for the near-term setup, as well as needlessly cutting the signal strength delivered to the gateway. There's no better way to isolate the DOCSIS 3.1 signals and modem from the MoCA network than actually having no coax link between them whatsoever; and the provider can't point fingers at your MoCA network if/when having gateway connectivity issues if the MoCA network is physically isolated from the DOCSIS path.

e.g.:

View attachment 29992 View attachment 29991 View attachment 29993​

I think I'm going to with the last image.. the one where the moca coax is going into the input of the splitter.
That looks like the best option for me. But I have a question what is that cap looking device on the 4th output port?
I'm assusming it's some sort of cap inorder to close an used port..?

 

[krkaufman]

Also this is his combo modem/router/telephone box do you think it'd be possible to get our own separate modem.
For instance do I have to use this box because of their telephone services. Or can I speak to Spectrum and get something just for the telephone and go out and purchase our own modem..?

I don't do Spectrum, but my best recollection from forum surfing ("best" being entirely relative) is that your co-worker would be renting this all-in-one gateway from Spectrum, but it would be free, though still required, if demoted to only providing the phone service -- assuming you've purchased your own gateway or separate modem & router devices to implement the home network side of the setup.

A few benefits of using your own, distinct modem & router devices:

• Using your own modem & router would allow for a simpler home network transition if/when they switch to FiOS, since the modem's Ethernet WAN connection to the router would simply be replaced with an Ethernet WAN connection from the FiOS ONT (Optical Network Terminal).
  
  
• Choice. More flexibility in setting up a whole home network, especially if considering a wireless mesh setup.
  
  
• Cost? The math usually sides with rolling your own ... but using the leased device for a short period while researching and deciding on the best long-term solution for your router (e.g. router with non-integrated access points, a wireless mesh setup, etc.) may make sense, and could be addressed as a different project phase from the MoCA network setup.

 

[krkaufman]

But I have a question what is that cap looking device on the 4th output port?
I'm assusming it's some sort of cap inorder to close an used port..?

Yes, just a 75-ohm terminator; unnecessary if all ports are used/connected.