Networking novice

[Mr Khan]

Hi, I’m new to this forum and sort of a networking novice. I’m sick of wireless range extenders, bridges and power line plugs. I’m in the process of choosing gear for home IP CCTV system with 4 IP cameras and a NVR but before installing CCTV system I want to create a half decent home network.

My current setup is a Virgin Media super hub in the landing on 1st floor (soon to be replaced by super hub 2 AC) and wireless bridges / power line adapters all over the house that I want to get rid of. I need wired connection in front room on 1st floor, back room on 1st floor, front room on ground floor and back room on ground floor. This is how I’m planning on doing it:

Landing

GS105E in landing – Port 1 super hub, Port 2 WD my cloud, Port 3 cable to switch in front room on 1st floor, Port 4 cable to switch in back room on 1st floor and Port 5 unused.

Front room 1st floor

GS108PE in front room on 1st floor – Port 1 POE to Cam 1 front, Port 2 POE to Cam 2 front, Port 3 PC, Port 7 to switch in front room on ground floor (external Cat 6 running externally), Port 8 Cat 6 coming in from landing switch and rest of the ports currently unused.

Back room 1st floor

GS108PE in back room on 1st floor – Port 1 POE to Cam 3 back, Port 2 POE to Cam 4 back, Port 3 Set top box, Port 7 to switch in back room on ground floor (external Cat 6 running externally), Port 8 Cat 6 coming in from landing switch and rest of the ports currently unused.

Front room on ground floor

GS105E in front room on ground floor – Port 1 NVR, Port 2 Set top box, Port 3 Slingbox, Port 5 external Cat 6 cable coming externally from front room on 1st floor and rest of the ports currently unused.

Back room on ground floor

GS105E in back room on ground floor – Port 1 TV, Port 2 Set top box, Port 5 external Cat 6 cable coming in from back room on 1st floor and rest of the ports currently unused.


I was wondering if you’d be able to tell me if that would work or is there a better way of achieving what I’m trying to achieve. I also wanted to know if all switches are gigabit and certain things on a switch such as IP cams which are 100MB gets plugged into switch, will it revert all the ports on the switch and anything connected to it back to 100MB? And if wiring the ground floor switches directly from landing be better (only around extra 5m of cable will be needed per room).

 

[System Error Message]

All gigabit ethernet ports support 10M and 100M modes. Plugging a 10M device into a switch where other clients are gigabit wont screw things up (unless you use flow control).

With the way you've wired everything with so many switches, consider communication between them. What is the maximum amount of speed do you think is required between switches when you expect your devices on LAN to communicate and how much data is your storage going to be handling at a time. If you expect to be handling more than 100MB/s of data than consider getting a managed switch that can combine ports. I usually avoid expansion using more switches as its cheaper and i get to use a managed switch for the center of my network. The more switches you use the less efficient your network becomes.

If you're building a security network, dont skimp on the hardware. replace the virgin media superhub with a much better router and just use the superhub as a modem. There is an SFP module for cable but its hard to find though. There has never been a stable virgin media superhub (ive seen so much instability from everyone i know around me that use the new and old superhub). Using a good router especially a configurable non consumer one lets you do a lot more with your network and control the devices that are connected to it and wont fail like the virgin media hub or some consumer routers do.

 

[Mr Khan]

Thanks for the information and advise it makes sense now how it'd be less efficient using more switches. So I'd get best performance by having one central switch in landing (JGS524PE) and running multiple cables to each room? I'm guessing that way all internal traffic and routing will get gone by the switch without going to router.

I've tried multiple VM modems and super hubs currently using super hub in modem mode with a Netgear R6300 as router but the performance is still quite poor compared to how much I paid for the router when it first came out. wireless range and speed is only a fraction better than the standard super hub. Using the current super hub alone I get full reception on ground, 1st floor and loft conversion but slightly week in ground floor extension but I'm hoping the new AC will improve it slightly alone I don't want to carry on using the Netgear router for now.

The four cameras will be running constantly at 1080P 30fps at highest quality settings so that around 25Mb, it will be recorded on NVR and maybe be accessed over the internet remotely and other parts of the home internally at the same time. WD cloud is contanly backing up files from 4 laptops and also used to stream full HD videos to TV's through DLNA and sometimes photo's and videos are also accessed over internet through mobile.

On a normal evening and weekends there's up to 5 smartphones, 2 tablets, 4 laptops and a wireless all in one printer connected to it. If there's guests around then up to 5 more wireless devices. I'm hoping the new VM will be able to reasonably handle that if not I'll be switching it back on modem mode and get 2 decent business grade wireless AP's.

 

[System Error Message]

The virgin media superhub 2 may be fine but when used on a long term it becomes unstable on a daily basis. Consider one of the recent routers with AC wifi if you want. There are many dual core ARM A9 routers to choose from and this website has charts and reviews on their performance and stability.
It seems that with all the data you have passing through your network using a central switch with the capability to team ports would help greatly especially if your WD cloud or network storages support it. The speed also depends on how fast you want the backups to happen. If you want a few GBs done in a few minutes you will need a port teaming.

A central switch isnt necessary if you connect switches by combining ports and increasing the max bandwidth between them but the switch needs to be managed. Another choice is getting switches that have multi Gb/s ports to connect to each other if you need the performance.

 

[Mr Khan]

I've had the new AC hub up and running a few hours now had a little play around with it seems at least 3 x better than my previous R6300 performance and feature wise. Range is still weak in the extension but slightly better else where even in the garden and out in the car getting half+ bars. Weak signal in extension may be due to the shape and size of extension it's a bit out of the way from the rest of the house.

I love the way how it allows you to individually filter MAC addresses per SSID and have same SSID for both 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz makes much easier to manage. If I remember correctly these options were available on the first super hub too, might be VM's own add on to their firmware but weren't available on any of the routers I purchased myself. I have 4 SSID's in total 2 for home network in 2.4 and 5 both same name and 2 for guests in both bands with same names as well. All 4 SSID's have the same passwords. Guests SSID's filters are set to allow all except filtered MAC's and home SSID's are set to deny all except filtered MAC's. Users I want to grant access to my LAN I just block their MAC's on both guest SSID's and add it to one of the home SSID's depending on their devices.

I'm not a fan of wireless repeaters or range extender I know there's some power line AP's available I will look into one of them to put at the other end of extension just about powerful enough to cover just the extension as I'm getting full signal and throughput everywhere else in house. I'm not aware of any models that would clone all 4 SSID's and settings to it without me having to manually configure that all over.

I'm happy with the current performance so far hope I don't have to upgrade when rest of the kits up and running. Next part what sort of cables would you recommend to run from switch to rooms? I was thinking CAT6a. 4 wires in each of the 4 rooms from landing 2 of them will be POE for each of the 1st floor room to be drilled out the walls for IP cams.

 

[System Error Message]

Cat5e can do gigabit up to 100M, CAT6 maxes out at 4Gb/s. If the prices arent too different than go for CAT6a.

 

[Mr Khan]

After a month of usage I’m starting to hate the superhub again. When there’s around 4 smartphones, a laptop and a tablet connected wirelessly, speed drops dramatically for wireless devices but fine through Ethernet.

I’m considering a Netgear R7000 to use as router and a Netgear EX7000 as range extender near the extension where there is weak/no signal. I’ll be connecting EX7000 to router wirelessly for the time being until I’ve got round to running wires.

I was wondering what you think of these equipment and does anyone have any experience with these products?

 

[Mr Khan]

Update: Ordered RT-AC87U. Hopefully I'll get away without a range extender or additional access points by using this router.

 

[System Error Message]

The ac87u is a poor choice if not all of your clients are mu-mimo.

I suggest looking at Linksys ac1900 or Asus ac1900 or netgear r7000 with Merlin firmware.

Any of the suggested routers have more range than superhub and are more reliable.
Ac3200 only if you have lots of devices

 

[azazel1024]

Cat5e can do gigabit up to 100M, CAT6 maxes out at 4Gb/s. If the prices arent too different than go for CAT6a.

Cat5e and Cat6 can both do 10GbE. 5e up to 45 meters and 6 up to 55 meters. Both, especially 5e, are more susceptible to alien cross talk and induced RF interference, so they should be used much shorter than indicated lengths if running as a wire bundle or in a harsh environment. In a home environment, I'd figure 30 meters +/- for 5e and I'd give the Cat 6 more or less the full 55 meters to get 10GbE performance out of it.

On the questioned equipment, the R7000 is pretty decent, the extender, dunno. If you need one now, I can pretty much bet you'll need one later. Can't beat physics or FCC radiated RF rules.

 

[Mr Khan]

Cancelled order I will go buy R7000 from store tomorrow and if required I’ll get an EX7000 to help with range in a few days. Nice to know CAT5e can run at these speeds the average runs from my router to switches will be around 12 meters around 4 meters of it will run externally. Would you recommend these cables? http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/cat5e-...l-cat5e-utp-solid-cable-black-100mt-reel.html

 

[azazel1024]

Eh, I'd look at Cables-to-go if they sell around you. That is what I've generally bought because the prices tend to be good and they make pretty good quality cables.

I'd consider cat6, just because the price increment is relatively small compared to cat5e, and it is more robust for future proofing and generally a hardier cable (harder to damage the wiring internally when running the wiring). At least US prices a 500ft box of cat5e tends to be around $80 from what I have seen and Cat6 tends to be around $105.

Cat6 keystone jacks tend to only be maybe $1 extra per jack over cat5e.

 

[htismaqe]

+1

For the small incremental increase in cost, Cat6 is worth it.

 

[Mr Khan]

Not impressed with the range it's more or less what I was already getting although throughput has increased slightly in the part of the house where signal is weak, just need it stay as it is when there's 15+ wireless devices connected at the same otherwise it’ll be going back to shop. I'll be getting an EX7000 to run as AP and replace a switch with when I've got the wiring sorted that should solve the range issue, increase overall throughput and balance the load.

What is the best way to run switches I’ve got a GS105 in front room ground floor run through power line I’ll be keeping this switch, I’ll be replacing the dual port power line plug in back room ground floor with EX7000 and get a new POE switch where the router is on landing for POE IP cams. POE switch on landing will have a few unused ports should both switches from ground floor be plugged into that or would it be better if all three switches connected directly to router (same location)?

 

[System Error Message]

use a star based topology to connect everything to a central switch. Make so that traffic only has to pass a switch or AP to get to the client. Its not always necessary but it is ideal

 

[azazel1024]

Not impressed with the range it's more or less what I was already getting although throughput has increased slightly in the part of the house where signal is weak, just need it stay as it is when there's 15+ wireless devices connected at the same otherwise it’ll be going back to shop. I'll be getting an EX7000 to run as AP and replace a switch with when I've got the wiring sorted that should solve the range issue, increase overall throughput and balance the load.

What is the best way to run switches I’ve got a GS105 in front room ground floor run through power line I’ll be keeping this switch, I’ll be replacing the dual port power line plug in back room ground floor with EX7000 and get a new POE switch where the router is on landing for POE IP cams. POE switch on landing will have a few unused ports should both switches from ground floor be plugged into that or would it be better if all three switches connected directly to router (same location)?

Physics is physics. Unless there was an actual design "problem" with the router, routers are still limited by physics and FCC radiated emissions rules. New generations of radios and signal processing can sometimes improve SLIGHTLY the actual range as they are better at processing weaker signals and get better at cleaner signals. However, interference (natural or man-made) can swamp a weak signal, no matter how good the signal processing and how clean the produced signal is.

There are 3 basic ways to increase range. More radio chains (or streams if you want) as the streams are additive for signal strength (3dB per stream IIRC, or maybe it is diminishing return where it is 3dB going from 1:1 to 2:2, then 2dB for 2:2 to 3:3, I don't recall. Something like that). Bigger antennas, which doesn't necessarily help, as it enhances interference as well (if the source of interference is in the same plane as the signal gain) or more powerful radios, which is heavily limited by FCC ERP limits as well as client radio ability (because battery, which means a POWEFUL client is about 32mw, even in a laptop, where as a typical router is 100-200mw, already a lot more powerful and you get too much imbalance and the client can hear the router, but the router cannot hear the client, which causes the link to fail, the client just doesn't really realize it).

So getting a "new router" is unlikely to really increase range. It very well might increase performance at existing ranges, because of all of the nice fun stuff, like more frequency (40MHz vs 80MHz), better signal processing, better firmware, better radios, etc. The range itself is unlikely to really change much at all. Of course EFFECTIVE range can change. My old WDR3600 could cover 100% of my house when located in my basement on the far side of the house on 2.4GHz and about 75% of my house on 5GHz. HOWEVER, it could only effectively cover 90% with 2.4GHz and 50% with 5GHz based on speed (IE over 10Mbps to my phone, less than that and I don't consider it effectively covering it). Moving to an Archer C8 bumped it up to the same 100% coverage on 2.4GHz, 5GHz stayed at about 75%, however the EFFECTIVE coverage moved up to 100% with 2.4GHz and 65% with 5GHz, but the performance at long range increased a lot.

From (these are numbers on my laptop, my phone is a fair amount slower) about 2.5MB/sec on 2.4GHz to 3.5MB/sec at long range and from 2MB/sec on 5GHz to 7MB/sec. If I move much more than the edges of the old reception, my connection pretty much disappears, or it gets so bad as to be effectively unusable, not really better than my old WDR3600 (range IS very SLIGHTLY increased, but very slight, of course it is also a 3:3 vs a 2:2 router and it has beamforming, which, yeah I know, mostly helps medium range performance, not long range, but it doesn't mean it cannot do a thing at long range. It is using literally the same 5dBi antennas that were on my WDR3600, since I pulled 3 antennas off of the two WDR3600 I had and slapped them on my Archer C8). So my range didn't really change, but my ability to use my existing network increased pretty significantly, especially on 5GHz. It is really useable up to the very edge of actual 5GHz wifi reception now. Where as before, it was just too slow to be really usable. Of course the downside is that the wifi reception fall off is very profound at the edge of range. You go from having a decent connection to basically nothing by moving only a modest amount (walk in to the next room 5ft away and it disappears).

Of course I am running 3 WAPs across my property, 2 indoors and 1 outside so that I have excellent coverage everywhere, but I still test all scenarios.

 

[Mr Khan]

What's going on there? http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/compu...-band-wireless-cable-router-20948687-pdt.html

 

[azazel1024]

Is there a question?

 

[stevech]

What's going on there? http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/compu...-band-wireless-cable-router-20948687-pdt.html

Hmm. They are hocking their wares?

 

[Mr Khan]

They were priced at £10 last night was thinking of purchasing one to use as AP but it's a pricing error and they've fixed it now. Anyway I've managed to swap the R7000 for a AC68U first thing I did on it was update it to latest beta firmware and the whole thing is all over the place signal bars bouncing up and down like disco lights.