New Multiple WAPs Wi-Fi installation in Retirement Home / Hotel : Need advice

[Jim_Lafleur]

Hi,

I was hired to install a new Wi-Fi network in a Retirement Home. Really, it's like a small hotel with 2 floors. There's 30 tenants total.

I was wondering if any of you guys had experience with this stuff. The owner asked me to install 2 to 3 Wireless Access Points (WAP) to cover the whole area. I've read somewhere that I should give the same SSID and password to all the WAPs. That way, you give the same password to everyone and everyone is happy. They don't need something fancy like i-Hotel wi-fi control (access codes for each guest, speed limits, etc). Also I've read that we could assign each WAP to a different channels, to avoid interference. Easy to say for a 802.11g network, but with newer 802.11n and 802.11ac WAPs, it seems that the channels are starting to be crowded. With 802.11n and 802.11ac should we just let the WAPs choose their own channels?

Is 802.11ac OK for this or should we stick with 802.11n? I was thinking about buying an 802.11ac router but only enable 802.11n for now.

Any ideas or handy tips to help us complete this installation with success?

 

[L&LD]

First off, take an inventory of the devices that will connect to this new network. Both the number and the type is important (eg. 2x AC clients, 8x 5GHz N clients and 22x 2.4GHz N and G clients).

Next, how many square feet are you covering? What kind of building construction is this with regards to how easily it allows WiFi signals to pass? Will all 30 tenants be online at a single location at a single time? Will there be more clients in the near future (I can see each tenants kids and grandkids wanting to use the wifi, for example).

I would not use a single ssid if using mere consumer routers. Use separate ssids for each area that a single router is expected to cover. Don't forget to think in 3D and account for the people being able to see the signal on the floor above (or below).

I would also assign the channels manually too. Use the opposite channel in the 2.4GHz band for the closet to each other routers and then use the remaining channel for the third router (channels 1, 6 and 11).

For the 5GHz band, I would test each channel available for the highest throughput for each router. Make sure you account for the channel width of all routers when assessing the next router's highest throughput channel.

With the possibility that the 30 tenants could mean 120 or more clients that might need to connect (or, at the very least 30+ clients needing to connect at a single time from one router), I would be looking at the 3 radio designs from Asus and the RMerlin firmware at this time.

 

[stevech]

retirement residence...
Assuming most users are elderly. Maybe some staffers who might be bandwidth-hogs. That might need special attention.

You've worked out how to get wired connectivity to access points (APs) distributed around?
That's priority #1.
Tell us about the property so we can help with the coverage design. Number of, placement of APs.
Special areas like kitchen with stainless steel walls?
Outdoor/patio coverage?

I agree on mixing APs on 1, 6, and 11 in 2.4GHz.

Issue #2 is security. WPA2.

I'd get some low cost 11n APs. Even a < $40ASUS like this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...gclid=CNGrxYPBrsQCFYRufgodS4QADg&gclsrc=aw.ds
(I've used these)

These are good for wall/ceiling mouting and power over the ethernet cable (not PoE per se, but power injectors - cheaper).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...3168059&cm_re=engenius-_-33-168-059-_-Product

will be fine for this situation.
You can use stock firmware. These can also be used as a router.
Depending on cabling routes, you may need a small number of inexpensive ethernet swithes.

AP installation is an issue: where to put them out of sight but not where they'll overheat, not too far from power outlet, not above ceiling tiles in fire-code plenum space, etc.

 

[azazel1024]

Some of the residents could be bandwidth hogs also. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law got my wife's grandmother an iPad mini 2 a couple of months ago and as part of it a subscription to Netflix.

She probably watches 4-5hrs a day of old movies and shows (which she isn't hanging out at the social center in her community or teaching kiln fired pottery classes).

She might be 87 and not super technologically proficient, but she can figure out how to tap a button on the screen and navigate Netflix

 

[stevech]

streaming netflix isn't too hoggy - for an iPad mini, it's probably 500Kbps or so.

 

[L&LD]

I would always advise to 'over build' a network than simply build to current or expected (by the customer) specs. This is put in writing in my quote and on the final invoice, regardless if they heeded my recommendations or not.

The notion of 'build it and they will come' comes to mind.

Even if most tenants currently don't see the need for WiFi, the ones that do will influence them soon enough.

streaming netflix isn't too hoggy - for an iPad mini, it's probably 500Kbps or so.

Multiply that by 30 or so users and the demand may exceed the ISP connection speed they currently have or are considering getting.

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

Will all 30 tenants be online at a single location at a single time?

Most tenants will use the same WAP most of the time from their room. They'll use a different one when they'll go to the lobby.

I would not use a single ssid if using mere consumer routers. Use separate ssids for each area that a single router is expected to cover.

Consumer routers are not able to use all the same ssid? Even the most powerful gaming routers like NETGEAR Nighthawks and like the Asus RT-AC66U for examples? I guess I could set different SSIDs but set the same password everywhere.

Don't forget to think in 3D and account for the people being able to see the signal on the floor above (or below).

Yes. Our WAP will be located at the first floor, and will serve the second floor.

I would also assign the channels manually too. Use the opposite channel in the 2.4GHz band for the closet to each other routers and then use the remaining channel for the third router (channels 1, 6 and 11).

Great idea!

For the 5GHz band, I would test each channel available for the highest throughput for each router. Make sure you account for the channel width of all routers when assessing the next router's highest throughput channel.

We'll probably use 3 identical routers, all with the same channel width. I like to use Wifi Analyzer on Android to visualize the channels used. Right now I'm looking at it for my router, which is a dual band N router with 20/40MHz channels. I see, on Wifi Analyzer, that the 5GHz channel 36 occupies 2 channels width (from 34 to 38) (so 40MHz I presume). If I had 80Mhz channels, would it show me a graphic occupying 4 channels? If not is there tool available showing what channels are occupied for the 20Mhz width, the 40MHz width and the 80Mhz widths? (Cause AC routers are able to use all three at the same time).

I would be looking at the 3 radio designs from Asus and the RMerlin firmware at this time

When you say "3 radio designs" do you mean 3 antennas, like the ASUS RT-AC66U Dual-Band Wireless-AC1750 Router for example? Or do you mean a tri-band router like the ASUS RT-AC3200 Tri-Band AC3200 Router?
http://www.asus.com/us/Networking/RTAC66U/
http://www.asus.com/Networking/RTAC3200/

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

You've worked out how to get wired connectivity to access points (APs) distributed around?

There's already a cat5e cable and a power outlet at each WAP location.

Special areas like kitchen with stainless steel walls? Outdoor/patio coverage?

No kitchen (It's in another building attached to this one). This building is all rooms. No outdoor coverage.

AP installation is an issue: where to put them out of sight but not where they'll overheat, not too far from power outlet, not above ceiling tiles in fire-code plenum space, etc.

The owner want's all the WAPs above the ceiling tiles. I told him that enclosed spaces were probably not a good idea but he told me that i-Hotel did that for an hotel he owns and that it worked great in that case. The cat5e and the power outlet are right there above the ceiling. I don't think they'd overheat since they use central air conditioning.

 

[stevech]

Above the ceiling tiles means fire code compliance - approved devices (no plastic), plenum rated cable. Best to use power inserters.

Beware.

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

How about this :
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005EORRBW/?tag=snbforums-20
https://www.ubnt.com/enterprise/software/

Looks cool uh? And pretty cheap.

 

[L&LD]

Most tenants will use the same WAP most of the time from their room. They'll use a different one when they'll go to the lobby.


Consumer routers are not able to use all the same ssid? Even the most powerful gaming routers like NETGEAR Nighthawks and like the Asus RT-AC66U for examples? I guess I could set different SSIDs but set the same password everywhere.


Yes. Our WAP will be located at the first floor, and will serve the second floor.


Great idea!


We'll probably use 3 identical routers, all with the same channel width. I like to use Wifi Analyzer on Android to visualize the channels used. Right now I'm looking at it for my router, which is a dual band N router with 20/40MHz channels. I see, on Wifi Analyzer, that the 5GHz channel 36 occupies 2 channels width (from 34 to 38) (so 40MHz I presume). If I had 80Mhz channels, would it show me a graphic occupying 4 channels? If not is there tool available showing what channels are occupied for the 20Mhz width, the 40MHz width and the 80Mhz widths? (Cause AC routers are able to use all three at the same time).


When you say "3 radio designs" do you mean 3 antennas, like the ASUS RT-AC66U Dual-Band Wireless-AC1750 Router for example? Or do you mean a tri-band router like the ASUS RT-AC3200 Tri-Band AC3200 Router?
http://www.asus.com/us/Networking/RTAC66U/
http://www.asus.com/Networking/RTAC3200/

There are no Tri-Band routers that I know of (though they are marketed like that).

I was thinking of the RT-AC3200 model (three radios; one 2.4GHz and two 5GHz bands and six antennae).

I would not be using or relying on any wifi analyzer. As I mentioned already, simply pick the channel to use based on the highest actual throughput measured. Account for the channel width and then pick the next best channel to use for the next AP.

I used to use similar analyzers but quickly found that they couldn't account for what seemed to be the best channel based on their pretty graphs yet the throughput on those channels were far worse than other channel choices. Another limitation is the fact that I think you're using this program on a hand held device. This will further skew the results it gives you. I use a notebook with the power savings disabled and an AC WiFi card and programs like this still give wrong suggestions, repeatedly.

This thread may be of interest to you too.

http://www.snbforums.com/threads/mu...ation-in-motel-need-advice.23403/#post-172725

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

I was thinking of the RT-AC3200 model (three radios; one 2.4GHz and two 5GHz bands and six antennae).

So that's ?:
-one 2.4Ghz radio with typical G/N channels.
-One 5Ghz AC radio in the 40MHZ width
-One 5Ghz AC radio in the 80MHZ width
Am I close?

(Edit:About above, I think I'm in the field. I was referring to http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1234000001739/ch05.html#section-channel-selection . By looking at http://kb.linksys.com/linksys/GetAr...r_and_how_does_it_work.xml&pid=85&converted=0 it seems that tri-band means : One 2.4Ghz, one 5.2Ghz and one 5.8Ghz)

The RT-AC3200 looks very good. The reviews are mixed on Amazon though. It's probably because of the bugs in the firmware right? Which are probably fixed with the Merlin firmware, right? If the Merlin firmware brings a mostly bug free experience, I'd have no problem going with the RT-AC3200. I've read somewhere to set the 2.4GHz radio to 1,6,11 channels, but to let the routers select the channel on their own for 5Ghz. What's your thoughts on this?

I was also tempted by the Nighthawk AC1900 and AC3200. Are the firmware mature on these?

This thread may be of interest to you too.
http://www.snbforums.com/threads/mu...ation-in-motel-need-advice.23403/#post-172725

Very helpful thread. Thanks!!

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

Above the ceiling tiles means fire code compliance - approved devices (no plastic), plenum rated cable. Best to use power inserters. Beware.

If the owner requires it above the ceilling absolutely, and that the firemen find out about it later, does the responsibility fall on the installer or the owner?

When you say plenum, you mean where the air circulation passes by right? In this case the ceilings are drop-ceilings . I don't think that they use it for air circulation. I think they have dedicated air vents for that.

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

If I use those on the first floor, attached to the drop ceiling, will the signal go up to the second floor?
https://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap-ac/

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

Also Asus says, that with the RT-AC3200 , they can steer each device to the right band (Smart Connect). That's a big plus in my own opinion. Is this an half baked feature? Or does it work really good? Cause if the user wants to use the 5Ghz band but the signal is stronger on the 2.4Ghz band, the device will go back to 2.4Ghz soon or later (and be stuck on lower speeds). An Amazon review says that a downside of Smart Connect is : "Doesn't allow you to choose any channels, channel bandwidths, or 802.11 modes in Smart Connect mode "... Would we be able to use multiple routers if we can't specify the channels? Should we have faith in "Smart Connect" to figure it all out by itself?
http://www.amazon.com/review/R33M626TAVW0F1/ref=cm_srch_res_rtr_alt_4

The uniFi UAP-AC, already mentioned, doesn't currently do that (https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Frequently-Asked-Questions/UniFi-Band-Steering/ta-p/758316). Also it doesn't currently support Zero Handoff Roaming (https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi...stions/UniFi-What-is-Zero-Handoff/ta-p/412719 http://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/unifi/UniFi_AP_DS.pdf). Anyway Zero Handoff Roaming is maybe not a plus, cause they say all APs must use the same channel. So if there's a lot of users/traffic the channel faces overuse.

 

[L&LD]

So that's ?:
-one 2.4Ghz radio with typical G/N channels.
-One 5Ghz AC radio in the 40MHZ width
-One 5Ghz AC radio in the 80MHZ width
Am I close?

(Edit:About above, I think I'm in the field. I was referring to http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1234000001739/ch05.html#section-channel-selection . By looking at http://kb.linksys.com/linksys/GetAr...r_and_how_does_it_work.xml&pid=85&converted=0 it seems that tri-band means : One 2.4Ghz, one 5.2Ghz and one 5.8Ghz)

The RT-AC3200 looks very good. The reviews are mixed on Amazon though. It's probably because of the bugs in the firmware right? Which are probably fixed with the Merlin firmware, right? If the Merlin firmware brings a mostly bug free experience, I'd have no problem going with the RT-AC3200. I've read somewhere to set the 2.4GHz radio to 1,6,11 channels, but to let the routers select the channel on their own for 5Ghz. What's your thoughts on this?

I was also tempted by the Nighthawk AC1900 and AC3200. Are the firmware mature on these?



Very helpful thread. Thanks!!

One 2.4GHz band, two 5GHz bands. Not based on channel width, rather, based on one being the lower channels and the other being the higher channels in the 5GHz band. A 5.2GHz band and a 5.8GHz band are still just in the single 5GHz band range with no effective difference between them. What makes the Tri-Radio routers a little special is the fact that in the same location, you can have an AP for slower and faster 5GHz devices and the slower devices won't interfere with the faster ones (assuming they're assigned to the other band, of course).

Doesn't matter what band you use; choosing the primary channel manually (determined by actual throughput test from a fast, wired computer to a wireless client) will always give you the best performance. While Auto is mostly hit and miss.

I was a firm believer in Netgear products. Not anymore. Asus and RMerlin firmware opened my eyes to what I was missing. Don't really follow them anymore but what I have read is that the problems are at least equivalent to Asus' at this point or worse. In my case, I don't consider them anymore because when a new model comes out, the current one seems to be dropped from further development, upgrading or basic fixes. With Asus, the Smart Connect feature is the last one that needs to be worked on for most users. I'm sure in a firmware cycle or two, this too will be an issue of the past.

Also Asus says, that with the RT-AC3200 , they can steer each device to the right band (Smart Connect). That's a big plus in my own opinion. Is this an half baked feature? Or does it work really good? Cause if the user wants to use the 5Ghz band but the signal is stronger on the 2.4Ghz band, the device will go back to 2.4Ghz soon or later (and be stuck on lower speeds).

The uniFi UAP-AC, already mentioned, doesn't currently do that (https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Frequently-Asked-Questions/UniFi-Band-Steering/ta-p/758316). Also it doesn't currently support Zero Handoff Roaming (https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi...stions/UniFi-What-is-Zero-Handoff/ta-p/412719 http://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/unifi/UniFi_AP_DS.pdf). Anyway Zero Handoff Roaming is maybe not a plus, cause they say all APs must use the same channel. So if there's a lot of users/traffic the channel faces overuse.

As one who mostly doesn't believe in Auto anything, I don't have high hopes of Smart Connect. Even when it eventually works at a basic level without glitches.

I'll be proved wrong eventually, but I don't see that in this first gen products lifecycle.

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

Until now my choice is stopping on the RT-AC3200.
What's your point of view about RT-AC3200 (3x3 2.4Gz, 2 x 3x3 5Ghz) VS RT-AC87U? (3x3 2.4Gz, 4x4 5Ghz) ?

 

[L&LD]

The main differences between the two is that the RT-AC3200 is meant for a lot of devices to connect simultaneously. The RT-AC87U though has the hardware capabilities (but not enabled in firmware as of today) to substantially increase the performance of simultaneous users too, via MU-MIMO, but clients supporting that feature are exactly zero right now. And the maximum number of clients the RT-AC87U supports is lower than the 3 radio offerings in any case.

In your setup, the RT-AC3200 is the better matched choice when you're limited to 2 or 3 AP's.

The number of tenants and the type of tenants could lead someone to quickly assume that a single AP could handle them all (over two bands). But as I pointed out, I don't think that the tenants will be the only ones connecting, nor will the tenants be as 'easy' on the network in the long term as we might like to think at this point.

 

[Jim_Lafleur]

Do they bother have approximately the same range?

By the way, yesterday I've installed a RT-AC87U with Merlin and a USB key to store statistics, as the main router. I've read somewhere that the 5Ghz drops for nothing randomly with it, even with Merlin. Have you ever experienced that problem with that router?

 

[L&LD]

The range doesn't change too much, what does improve is the throughput at long range.

I haven't used an RT-AC87U yet, but follow all the posts on it on these forums. The 5GHz drop seems to have been fixed for most users in the last firmware or two.