PowerCloud Systems Makes An Exit

[Razor512]

Article: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32466-powercloud-systems-makes-an-exit


Opinion: This is of the many reasons to avoid cloud based devices such as the skydog router, dropcam, vuezone and other similar products, when things change or the service goes away, then your product suddenly becomes very useless.

Skydog has been around for a while, and there are likely many people that are likely 2/3rds of the way through the subscription, meaning once it runs out, they are stuck with a nearly useless router that offers little to no functionality.

When you rely on the cloud, you create many additional points of failure that are unnecessary in most cases.

 

[stevech]

Article: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32466-powercloud-systems-makes-an-exit


Opinion: This is of the many reasons to avoid cloud based devices such as the skydog router, dropcam, vuezone and other similar products, when things change or the service goes away, then your product suddenly becomes very useless.

Skydog has been around for a while, and there are likely many people that are likely 2/3rds of the way through the subscription, meaning once it runs out, they are stuck with a nearly useless router that offers little to no functionality.

When you rely on the cloud, you create many additional points of failure that are unnecessary in most cases.

A big cloud storage reservation of mine is security. In the US and elsewhere, they must reencrypt and store in order to have the keys to decrypt for a court order.
There have been several really bad faults in this, though they try to control who sees the keys. And they fuzz this up in the sales literature.
DropBox, OpenDrive, and others have had keys stolen/misused by ex-employees/consultants. Partly due to sloppy or naive controls on who sees the keys.
You can protect yourself by encrypting using your own means like TruCrypt or SafeHouse or Winzip. That kills the automated sync though.

But all that, and the low price of backup USB3 drives for my NAS, and the relatively low speed of my uplink to the Internet - it's just not worth it.

PogoPlug is an example, not of security issues, but of a bold attempt to sell Internet-connected drives in the home. Kind of a NAS via their servers. I see them focused on server-based storage now, so the original concept was perhaps too geeky for the retail world. To their credit, they're still in biz.

 

[fistv]

Article: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32466-powercloud-systems-makes-an-exit


Opinion: This is of the many reasons to avoid cloud based devices such as the skydog router, dropcam, vuezone and other similar products, when things change or the service goes away, then your product suddenly becomes very useless.

Skydog has been around for a while, and there are likely many people that are likely 2/3rds of the way through the subscription, meaning once it runs out, they are stuck with a nearly useless router that offers little to no functionality.

When you rely on the cloud, you create many additional points of failure that are unnecessary in most cases.

Try convincing management of that when they see the dollars they can save short term.

 

[htismaqe]

Try convincing management of that when they see the dollars they can save short term.

Yep.

The resistance to cloud services is more than offset by the service agility and consumption cost.

The move to cloud-based is not something that can be "stopped" - it can only be "delayed" if that makes sense.

 

[RMerlin]

Yep.

The resistance to cloud services is more than offset by the service agility and consumption cost.

The move to cloud-based is not something that can be "stopped" - it can only be "delayed" if that makes sense.

I've seen at least one case of a customer who actually reverted back to on premise after spending one year struggling with a cloud service that never provided the level of performance they were expecting. So, I don't think that in the future everything will get moved to the cloud - a certain balance will be struck at some point between having on-premise services and cloud-based services.

The big problem there IMHO is, like a lot of other technologies, the cloud is overhyped, and ends up being used in scenarios where it does not make any sense to use it. Just like a few years back, everyone was suddenly going nuts with HTML, using it even within applications for their user interface. I remember when a broken JScript engine in Windows would lead to an unusable Norton Antivirus - its user interface being entirely based on HTML and scripting. Or, how some people want to use XML when all they need to store is 4-5 user settings - the parsing code ends up being 10x bigger and more complex, and the storage overhead is even bigger than that.

 

[htismaqe]

So, I don't think that in the future everything will get moved to the cloud - a certain balance will be struck at some point between having on-premise services and cloud-based services.

Absolutely. But that's commercial and enterprise.

In the consumer space, this trend isn't going to reverse. In fact, it's likely to accelerate as things like software defined networking begin to filter down from the government to enterprise and eventually into consumer devices.

 

[Razor512]

Absolutely. But that's commercial and enterprise.

In the consumer space, this trend isn't going to reverse. In fact, it's likely to accelerate as things like software defined networking begin to filter down from the government to enterprise and eventually into consumer devices.

For me, it seems like largely a fad for many products. It will largely die out when it more cloud services start going under. One common issue is that many consumers do not think very far into the future. I repair a wide range of devices, and it is very common for a customer to look in disbelief when I tell them that their iphone or ipad needs a new battery. Many of them honestly believe that it is not directly user replaceable because it never needs to be replaced.

That kind of flawed thinking will soon come back to bite the people who purchased those cloud based cameras (e.g., dropcam), cloud based thermostats, routers, and many other products where the cloud element is added more for an additional revenue stream, and more control for planned obsolescence, because your ability to continue using your product is now in the hands of another company. Compare that to traditional systems where you can have full local functionality. For example, many IP cameras that are not cloud based, can record months or years of footage to either a NAS, or a PC that you are using as a DVR, and if you would like some cloud functions, you can have remote monitoring services, or set up your own remote server to have an additional copy of your footage stored remotely (just in case someone breaks in and steals the DVR)

With a cloud only device, if the company fails, or they simply take the route of skydog, and decide to just end the cloud services, then you suddenly get a useless device (and in the case of devices like the dropcam, 100% useless as they went out of their way to make sure that you would not be able to access any video locally (same with vuezone

Cloud is acceptable in areas where it is actually needed, but when companies like this simply take a feature that used to be hosted locally on a router (with remote access being provides VIA the WAN IP or a DDNS), to simply moving a webUI too a remote server that it out of your control, is an unnecessary use of the cloud, and in the case of skydog, it was done to create a revenue stream from a feature that was traditionally offered for free, locally on the router. (a possible secondary goal may have been planned obsolesce. While some companies will work to shorten the lifespan of a product by using crap components, and making it so that people can not change components that quickly wear out, but the risk of that is they will also end up with a high RMA rate, so the fad now seems to be to use low end, but not bottom of the line crap from the Shenzhen market, and then artificially shorten the lifespan by making the features that lead you to purchase the product, and make them into a service for which they can charge you for, or provide it for "free" remotely and then drop support for the device at a later date, and thus making those features you like from the product, go away.

 

[fistv]

Agree, to me 'cloud based = Remote hosting' which from my cynical paranoid security background is never a good idea. From my months of training while at bell labs and the system v schools, first rule, if you have access to the hardware you own it. From my time spent as a navy communicator and crypto repair, if you have access to the key lists you own the crypto. How many of us would willingly turn over our bank accounts and investment logins and passwords to complete strangers and not just one stranger but an entire department of them. Maybe some would, I'm not one of them.

 

[htismaqe]

For me, it seems like largely a fad for many products. It will largely die out when it more cloud services start going under.

The industry leaders in cloud services are heavily invested Fortune 50 companies that aren't going to go under. You're potentially thinking of Dropbox, I would guess. I'm talking about Apple, Amazon, and Google, to name a few.

What you're going to see is increasing transparency and seamlessness - users will be using cloud services more and more without even realizing it.

That kind of flawed thinking will soon come back to bite the people who purchased those cloud based cameras (e.g., dropcam), cloud based thermostats, routers, and many other products where the cloud element is added more for an additional revenue stream, and more control for planned obsolescence, because your ability to continue using your product is now in the hands of another company. Compare that to traditional systems where you can have full local functionality. For example, many IP cameras that are not cloud based, can record months or years of footage to either a NAS, or a PC that you are using as a DVR, and if you would like some cloud functions, you can have remote monitoring services, or set up your own remote server to have an additional copy of your footage stored remotely (just in case someone breaks in and steals the DVR)

That's because today, companies treat consumer cloud services as value-added features. The cost of delivery is so tremendously low vs. the traditional purpose-built device plus the purpose built device doesn't give the provider any "stickiness" in terms of customer touch. If your data is in their cloud, your dependency on them grows exponentially.

There will come a day when those features are core to the device and no longer added for value. There will always be a niche for purpose-built devices but they will eventually become the exception rather than the rule.

 

[htismaqe]

How many of us would willingly turn over our bank accounts and investment logins and passwords to complete strangers and not just one stranger but an entire department of them. Maybe some would, I'm not one of them.

Anybody that does online banking has already done this. You don't think banks are using cloud services?

 

[Razor512]

For products such as dropcam, vuezone, skydog and many others like this, the cloud is not a value add. what these companies have done is essentially took functionality and features that would have been hosted on the device (e.g., heading to 192.168.1.1) and hosting those features onto a remote server, and then configuring the device to form an encrypted connection to their servers in order to allow you to control the device. Without the cloud, those devices become unusable.

Cloud as a value add is something like the netgear readyshare cloud service. it relies on the netgear services so that you can access data from their NAS devices remotely, without having to worry about DDNS or your WAN IP and manually entering them in remote devices. but it is not needed because the cloud can be completely avoided by setting it up to allow you to remotely access it directly over the WAN, and thus if they go out of business, you only lose that cloud service but you still retain your ability to remotely access your data.

Now if netgear were to remove all remote access functions except the readyshare cloud, then it would no longer be a value add, it will simply be them shifting a function from being locally provided, to being remotely provided.

I am totally fine with cloud services when it is used to actually enhance a product. For example an enterprise level IP camera will allow you to record all content locally to your own servers, but if you choose, you can also have remote monitoring services also record the content, but if the remote monitoring company goes out of business, you can simply pay another one to do the same thing, or you can not use any of them and just rely on your local servers to record, or set up your own remote server to record the content.

What I am against when it comes to cloud is when it is done in a way that adds additional points of failure unnecessarily. (for skydog, pretty much everything it offered, could have easily been hosted locally on the router, and remote control could have been provided using DDNS or having the user enter their WAN IP into their remote devices.

With the way the cloud services are implemented for the vast majority of products, it is done in an extremely anti consumer way such that their continued use of the product depends on the success and shims of the people running the company. At the drop of a hat, they can decide to increase fees, disable free access, or cripple free access. (e.g., what would you do is tomorrow, dropcam decided to have anything above 640x480 viewing, a paid feature, or decided that support needed to end for the first gen products (nothing in their agreement obligates them to even offer the cloud services for even a trillionth of a nanosecond after you purchase the product.

Or what about products such as the creative cloud where use a DRM method that turns a product into a subscription service. (imagine if you are a professional graphic designed that relies on these products, and right in the middle of a tight deadline and adobe decided the increase the fee for photoshop from $10 a month, to $10,000,000 per month (they can legally do that if they wanted to (even if no one would pay for it), while at that point, you can choose to stop paying for it, it will also mean that you no longer have access to the tools you trained with because instead of having a non subscription product such as CS6, you went with CC and thus gave adobe the power to take away your tools at any time, with a perfectly legal and valid reason of you no longer wanting to pay the new subscription rate.

While it may be reasonable to believe that a major company of today may still be around 24 hours from now, it is impossible to predict if they will be around 10-20 years from now. There are tens of thousands of large corporations that have failed over the past 100 years. Large corporations are extremely slow to change and adapt, and thus it is common to see a company that was once thriving, become completely insolvent in a short amount of time once the business and economic environment changes.

 

[htismaqe]

Welcome to the 21st century.

People have been consuming music and TV in this same model, with the same risks and restrictions, for almost a decade now.

 

[Razor512]

For stuff like streaming music services and broadcast TV, it is expected that the content will only last until you stop paying for the service, or they go out of business.

But when the average consumer buys a cloud only device, they do not realize how it is being handled, they are not buying a internet controlled outlet or cloud only camera with the expectation that it will become a paperweight at the whim of come money hungry CEO, and the product is not marketed in a way that gives that impression.

 

[htismaqe]

For stuff like streaming music services and broadcast TV, it is expected that the content will only last until you stop paying for the service, or they go out of business.

I'd be willing to bet the average music buyer has no idea that if the entity they bought it from goes belly up (or otherwise stops supporting the DRM contained in the music), they won't be able to listen to them anymore.

Furthermore, the ones that do understand those ramifications understand the risks involved and still purchase. There was pushback to DRM (and still is) yet people are continuing to buy. The same will eventually hold true for cloud-based device networking.

But when the average consumer buys a cloud only device, they do not realize how it is being handled, they are not buying a internet controlled outlet or cloud only camera with the expectation that it will become a paperweight at the shim of come money hungry CEO, and the product is not marketed in a way that gives that impression.

I don't disagree.

But whether cloud-based devices/media SHOULD be sold to unwitting consumers and whether or not they will be are two different discussions.

 

[sfx2000]

Article: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-news/32466-powercloud-systems-makes-an-exit


Opinion: This is of the many reasons to avoid cloud based devices such as the skydog router, dropcam, vuezone and other similar products, when things change or the service goes away, then your product suddenly becomes very useless.

Skydog has been around for a while, and there are likely many people that are likely 2/3rds of the way through the subscription, meaning once it runs out, they are stuck with a nearly useless router that offers little to no functionality.

When you rely on the cloud, you create many additional points of failure that are unnecessary in most cases.

Well... they were a start-up, and with some interesting tech/biz model - not an established player...

As a former co-founder of a tech startup, I'm pretty happy for them - a successful exit for the team there... some will get paid out a lot, some others a reasonable amount, and the rest can count on having a good experience to put on their resume.

In any event, seems like the terms were pretty reasonable for the end-users/customers - Comcast will keep services up for three years - that's plenty long time in the WiFi space to find something else..

just my thoughts...

 

[sfx2000]

FWIW - there's a few people here, on this board that "get" the cloud...

And we work in odd places... we won't say where, but we do cover the spectrum from the phy all the way up to the app layer.

And we're very concerned about security, privacy, and how to build and scale this out...

we're at the cusp of an explosion of wireless networking - the Internet of Things is going to add billions, if not trillions, of nodes into the overall network - public and private.

get used to it - I was working on this stuff 5 years ago to enable this...

 

[Razor512]

The issue is that customers cannot renew their subscriptions either, meaning if they purchased the router early, then they will already be far into their subscription. If they at least wanted to do less wrong by their customers, they should have at least gave everyone an unlimited subscription and then set a cutoff date. But even then the type of customer the device attracted, will not be the type that will go through a router as fast as they go through cellphones. Those or generally the type of user who will use something like a WRT54G until it breaks. They are not doing anything that really needs a high speed within their network.

 

[stevech]

The PC revolution as many know, began with corporate departmental workers desperately wanting a way to not be enslaved to the IBM mainframe and its bevy of coders.

The cloud concept with servers and VM is too close to step one of de ja vous.

 

[thiggins]

+1 on sfx's comments

Any time I buy from a startup / young company, whether cloud or not, I'm not surprised if they go belly up or are sold. Particularly for products funded by Kickstarter, Indegogo, etc.

For many startups (most?) their "exit strategy" is to be bought.

I don't think Skydog buyers got a bad deal. The product wasn't that expensive and there is plenty of time to find another product.

Nothing lives forever in today's tech world.

 

[htismaqe]

Nothing lives forever in today's tech world.

Not only that but many (most?) devices today, whether it's phones, networking, or even television sets, seemed to be designed to be "disposable". Manufacturer's cut so many corners to keep costs down and they also seem to bolster their sales by essentially backing customers into replacing their devices every couple of years or so.