Which switch to use and play with

[CyberStudent]

I am looking to buy a cheap switch that can be somewhat managed for home use and to play with. My studies at College are Cybersecurity & Networking, so I don't want the price tag of Cisco equipment yet. The switches I seem to like are these so far: Zyxel GS1900-8, TP-Link TL-SG108E or the TP-Link TL-SG2008. The main router I am using at home is the Cisco/Linksys RVS4000, ISP is Comcast. I do have a few wireless devices still working and connected, received these as a home user beta tester for EnGenius: ESR9850(2), ESR600H(1), and a ERB300H(1)
Just looking for any useful info, Thanks
Hap

 

[azazel1024]

Don't do the 108E, go with the 2008.

I have the 2216, which is the 16 port version (with 2 SFP ports) of the 2008 and love it.

Fairly cheap, but works really well and the management page is pretty good too.

 

[CyberStudent]

Thanks for the respond, no more info other then which one you are using, which leaves out input about the Zyxel GS1900-8. I understand the management page is web base and not CLI but that also keeps the cost down.

 

[System Error Message]

mikrotik CRS is also one fun alternative. Some have SFP and some have SFP+. make sure the switch you get is fully managed and has the full non blocking bandwidth. Smart switches have limited features.

 

[azazel1024]

Um, what info are you looking for. I can talk about all of the features of the SG2008 if you'd like, but I don't know that it tells you much compared to the Zyxel as I am not familiar with it. Just in my limited experience, Zyxel seems to work okay, but both management, feature and performance wise I don't like them as much as TP-Link.

TP-Link also seems to go in on lower power for similar gear (just my experience looking at power consumption numbers of the switches and routers of their's I've had versus equivelent gear I've had of other guys stuff). Netgear also seems kind of decent at this. Asus and Zyxel don't really seem to give a fig for power consumption and generally seem to be power hogs for what you are getting.

 

[CyberStudent]

azazel1024, what you posted about not buying the 108E but going with the 2008, makes one wonder why, as if one fails more often then the other. It is true that I am not looking for the best of the best for now, just something to bite into for fun without the overhead cost, but something that does work good. Figure this place is the best source for input since most here have tried and failed on a few items, cheap or not. This is just for home play time with the system at hand, at school, its all Cisco systems and some very nice stuff, all CLI too.

 

[stevech]

Netgear Pro line lightly managed switches are popular.
I have an older one, GS108E, 8 port gigE for $60 off eBay. Uses a custom Adobe Air app to manage it- rather than a web browser.
Has VLAN, port mirroring (very useful), etc. Basics. But all that I needed for my small consulting business.

 

[azazel1024]

azazel1024, what you posted about not buying the 108E but going with the 2008, makes one wonder why, as if one fails more often then the other. It is true that I am not looking for the best of the best for now, just something to bite into for fun without the overhead cost, but something that does work good. Figure this place is the best source for input since most here have tried and failed on a few items, cheap or not. This is just for home play time with the system at hand, at school, its all Cisco systems and some very nice stuff, all CLI too.

The SG108e is the easy smart line from TP-Link. There is no web admin page or CLI. It is managed through a windows only application (like the older Netgear GS108e). This is why I would steer away from it. It is also missing a few features that the SG2008, 2216 and 2424 have.

It isn't a bad switch from all that I have heard, but for the compromises, I'd rather pay a little more.

If you want the cheapest, fairly decent, semi-managed switch possible, go with the DLink DGS1100-05 or -08 depending on if you want a 5 or 8 port semi-managed switch. I have the -05 in my entertainment center (since I stupidly only ran one LAN drop to that location in my basement while refinishing it, and there is NO way I can run a second LAN drop there). It works well. The admin webpage isn't amazing, but it is straight forward and it has most of the general features other semi-managed switches have (LAG, VLAN, spanning tree, etc.). Extremely low power draw on both BTW.

I got my -05 for $25 shipped open box, but the -05 typically runs around $50 new and the -08 around $60 new.

I generally don't like DLink, but the DGS1100 line is decent, if not amazing, stuff.

 

[System Error Message]

mikrotik CRS is a fully managed switch with partial L3 (also functions as an amazing router). Its around the range of $200 and the features are still evolving. It has a much better interface than many switches and has many cisco features.

You can also get the small switch variants too assuming they run routerOS not swOS.

 

[azazel1024]

A couple of things to consider with Mikrotik though, the English language support from them is pretty much non-existant, it is help forums or nothing. The specs they list for their gear is scanty at best (I can't find a single bit of information on, for example, the actual switching fabric of the CRS). A lot of the stuff being done is software defined switching, which can be AWESOME, but that has overhead and latency, which hardware based switching does NOT have.

The setup of it is also going to be a lot more intricate if you want it to do anything other than effectively act as a dumb switch.

Lastly, based on the little data I can find, it is not very capable at all (see back to I can find no data on what it's switching fabric is) in terms of switching, certainly not able to do all ports at full speed simultaneously, which just about all dumb, semi-managed and managed L2/L3 switches are capable of doing (I see ~127Mbps as full switching speed between two ports, though I'll conceed that might be either really small packets or else L3 switching (IE routing between IP ranges), that said, 123Mbps is VERY slow, even if you are talking L3 performance or small packet performance).

So, personally I would steer the heck away unless you have a very specific use case where you need software defined switching/routing and something with its flexibility, because the actual PERFORMANCE is NOT going to be there.

 

[Cloud200]

Ebay is your friend.
My first bit of kit was a cisco 2xxx series router and switch (both 10/100) for about $70 shipped.

 

[System Error Message]

A couple of things to consider with Mikrotik though, the English language support from them is pretty much non-existant, it is help forums or nothing. The specs they list for their gear is scanty at best (I can't find a single bit of information on, for example, the actual switching fabric of the CRS). A lot of the stuff being done is software defined switching, which can be AWESOME, but that has overhead and latency, which hardware based switching does NOT have.

The setup of it is also going to be a lot more intricate if you want it to do anything other than effectively act as a dumb switch.

Lastly, based on the little data I can find, it is not very capable at all (see back to I can find no data on what it's switching fabric is) in terms of switching, certainly not able to do all ports at full speed simultaneously, which just about all dumb, semi-managed and managed L2/L3 switches are capable of doing (I see ~127Mbps as full switching speed between two ports, though I'll conceed that might be either really small packets or else L3 switching (IE routing between IP ranges), that said, 123Mbps is VERY slow, even if you are talking L3 performance or small packet performance).

So, personally I would steer the heck away unless you have a very specific use case where you need software defined switching/routing and something with its flexibility, because the actual PERFORMANCE is NOT going to be there.

Why does everyone have a low expectation of mikrotik? Support is pretty much non existent for dlink and netgear too. The 127Mb/s you see is using bridge which uses CPU. The switch chip itself can perform L2 at wirespeed. Much of the data you get is from non standard configs which is what makes it seem slow when it is having to perform tasks like hotspot or proxy as an example. I would not have suggested it if i didnt know it had full wirespeed for L2. Their CRS line switches have touchscreens too.

Although with the CPU speed it has bridging should be about 800Mb/s. The switch features in routerOS lie in interfaces and switch sections of the the GUI.

I have used a few mikrotiks and i can tell you that they actually perform faster than consumer routers when loaded with consumer router configs. They only seem to perform badly because many people who buy them load them with heavy things since they can do a lot more than consumer routers. many of their customers also dont update their firmwares too either because of a bug or sticking with what works (many businesses dont update until it adds something they need) which means you usually find data from ones with much older firmware revisions. Configuring it for performance isnt that easy too. Mikrotik bridging can also use IP firewall aside from its own L2 firewall. That means you get L2 to L7 firewall.

I may seem like a fanboy but truthfully i just dont like seeing a good brand getting bashed without actually looking. I did read the datasheets before even suggesting this. It does do what a managed switch can but in different ways. I cant remember if switch can have its own firewall but it can do what managed switches can including VLANs and port aggregation using the switch chip. You can also do filtering as well.

 

[CyberStudent]

I do appreciate the info from all, and its good to read what others have tried for home usage. It would be great if some L3 switches were not so expensive for the simple home user, since they do offer so much more. But I can wait it out and read more since this is nothing more then a learning curve at home usage.

 

[System Error Message]

the mikrotik CCR series are a true L3 switch (L3 switching at wirespeed). ISPs use L3 switching because the internet is routed using IPs and big tables that keep all the route info. The amount of CPU power the CCRs have for being an L3 switch is massive.

a L2 switch does not switch using IPs. Switches do learn and PCs communicate by sending an ARP request to figure out the MAC address of target PC on same segment.

a L3 switch doesnt switch like L2 but rather uses preconfigured routes to determine the path. It is very different altogether. It is possible to learn the routes but that is very expansive in L3.

From what you want is probably a L2 managed switch that has the most features. Cisco do produce small managed switches too. Many L2 switches are partial L3 but they do not route. L2 switches only need like 2MB of very fast ram which is usually on the CPU. A full L3 switch requires gigabytes of ram to keep track of internet routes.

 

[azazel1024]

Why does everyone have a low expectation of mikrotik? Support is pretty much non existent for dlink and netgear too. The 127Mb/s you see is using bridge which uses CPU. The switch chip itself can perform L2 at wirespeed. Much of the data you get is from non standard configs which is what makes it seem slow when it is having to perform tasks like hotspot or proxy as an example. I would not have suggested it if i didnt know it had full wirespeed for L2. Their CRS line switches have touchscreens too.

Although with the CPU speed it has bridging should be about 800Mb/s. The switch features in routerOS lie in interfaces and switch sections of the the GUI.

I have used a few mikrotiks and i can tell you that they actually perform faster than consumer routers when loaded with consumer router configs. They only seem to perform badly because many people who buy them load them with heavy things since they can do a lot more than consumer routers. many of their customers also dont update their firmwares too either because of a bug or sticking with what works (many businesses dont update until it adds something they need) which means you usually find data from ones with much older firmware revisions. Configuring it for performance isnt that easy too. Mikrotik bridging can also use IP firewall aside from its own L2 firewall. That means you get L2 to L7 firewall.

I may seem like a fanboy but truthfully i just dont like seeing a good brand getting bashed without actually looking. I did read the datasheets before even suggesting this. It does do what a managed switch can but in different ways. I cant remember if switch can have its own firewall but it can do what managed switches can including VLANs and port aggregation using the switch chip. You can also do filtering as well.

That is good to know. However, Mikrotik provides pretty much none of that information that I can find (they have no performance measures anywhere I can see). They don't list switch fabric. They don't list pps for common configurations for L2 or L3 performance, etc., etc.

Netgear and others do at least have SOME support and their documentation is massively deeper than Mikrotiks from everything I can find on their stuff. It is advanced user only please, from everything I can find, if you want to go Mikrotik.

 

[System Error Message]

Yes mikrotik is for the advanced user not for the novice user. But if you're going to be using managed switches and CLI i doubt you'd be a novice user.

To get the specs i looked at their diagrams and chips they used. You can find those specs in their brochures and datasheets. It says non blocking wirespeed switch for the switch chips. I even googled the chips just to get their specs because i myself was considering getting a CRS226 to use SFP+ with my router. I am getting a CRS as soon as i have finished putting together my cluster to replace my smart switch. When it came to getting a switch i considered ubiquiti switches and the CRS. I chose the CRS because it was much cheaper and can do all ports with bidirectional bandwidth whereas ubiquiti switches can only switch L2 at half the total capacity that i need. The mikrotik CRS uses Qualcomm and atheros chips for both switching and CPU so as long as you dont do the mistake of combining ports using the CPU it will be fine.

They're quite new in the managed switch area but they've come a long way since releasing their CRS line.

 

[azazel1024]

Yes mikrotik is for the advanced user not for the novice user. But if you're going to be using managed switches and CLI i doubt you'd be a novice user.

To get the specs i looked at their diagrams and chips they used. You can find those specs in their brochures and datasheets. It says non blocking wirespeed switch for the switch chips. I even googled the chips just to get their specs because i myself was considering getting a CRS226 to use SFP+ with my router. I am getting a CRS as soon as i have finished putting together my cluster to replace my smart switch. When it came to getting a switch i considered ubiquiti switches and the CRS. I chose the CRS because it was much cheaper and can do all ports with bidirectional bandwidth whereas ubiquiti switches can only switch L2 at half the total capacity that i need. The mikrotik CRS uses Qualcomm and atheros chips for both switching and CPU so as long as you dont do the mistake of combining ports using the CPU it will be fine.

They're quite new in the managed switch area but they've come a long way since releasing their CRS line.

Depends on your point of view. I am certainly not an extremely advanced managed switch user, but I do have quite a bit of experience (several years with probably a dozen different semi-managed and managed L2 switches and I've used a couple of different models of L3 switches) and my CLI experience is minimal. None of the managed switches I've used has required it for anything I've needed to do. I deffinitely would not consider my self a novice at all, and frankly the very limited information Mikrotik has, I'd steer well clear of them. Maybe as an extremely advanced user I'd consider them.

 

[System Error Message]

Their interface is actually very easy to use. They have web interface, a windows only GUI, CLI and API (you can create programs that utilise the device). They have touchscreens too now. Although they have easy interface it requires an advanced user to set it up.

A L3 switch is basically a router. Some switches are partial L3 in that they make use of features only found in L3 such as addresses, protocol type and QoS. So if a switch is fully L3 that means it is also a router.

Mikrotik switches are actually L3 but only do L2 at wirespeed. As long as your configuration uses the switch chip it will be at wirespeed.

A true L3 switch is basically a router at wirespeed. Someone has actually benchmarked the CCRs and they can even do NAT at wirespeed as long as they directly use the CPU and not the ports connected to the switch chips.

 

[stevech]

L3 switches typically don't have NAT and thus cannot route to/from the Internet using one IP address shared by multiple devices on a LAN.

 

[System Error Message]

a router doesnt necessary mean NAT. It could mean a device that links different subnets together such as the IP routes that allow different IPs from different subnets to talk to each other without using NAT.

Hence a L2 switch will not allow different IP subnets to talk together but a L3 switch will. Its a big misunderstanding many have. Partial L3 switches dont allow communication between subnets but switch based on some details in the IP header.

CRS features : http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:CRS_features
After seeing this i doubt you can say they are dumb switches. They are fully managed switches but the price while being a lot cheaper for the hardware is still more expansive than some 5 or 8 port managed switches. It really depends on what you want.