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A straight answer about seamless handoffs please.

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bradm123

New Around Here
Every forum I've searched cannot answer this basic question because there are other factors that are typically included that make it different than what I want.

My question is:

Can I build a WiFi system in my house where I can be on a WiFi call, walk from the basement of my home to the top floor, move between strongest access points, and not drop the call? My goal is to not drop the signal at all as I move between points. Period. This would have to work with some legacy WiFi clients too. Think old Samsung phones, tablets, etc.

Can this be achieved without enterprise-level equipment? I am willing to spend some money to make this work but not a stupid amount.

Just to be clear, it would be something like a whole house speaker system playing the same song. As I move from the basement to speakers around the house, there is no drop, I just hear the new speaker louder as I walk past it.

Silly, but I hope you know what I'm trying to achieve. I understand that in most scenarios the client controls the connection to each AP, but if the WiFi network was simultaneously transmitting at all access points, the client wouldn't know the difference, right? It would just move seamlessly throughout, on the same channel. Even if the radio "heard" all AP's it would seamlessly stay with the strongest.

Would a mesh network with wired backhaul work here? I understand that some of these offerings are no better than a few AP's with same SSID and password.

Thank you.
Brad
 
Even with your whole house music system analogy, some spots will sound better than others.

And wifi is even more difficult to set up as you wish.

And if you don't spend the money required, you won't see those kinds of results.

I also think that the money isn't just in the network equipment, but also on the cell phones too. Wifi is not just a one way street, after all.

A 'stupid amount of money' is not a definition or a criteria. Maybe you should tell us your hard budget and see what options you're presented with then. :)

But seeing as you want the best, be prepared to keep saving to get there. ;)

What you're asking for, as-is, is not realistic. Nor are you giving any useful information to really help anyone help you.

A single, optionally placed router is the best answer here. Until we hear more details that are MIA, so far. ;)
 
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Let me try and rephrase.

Is there such thing as consumer or mid-range enterprise WiFi equipment that has true seamless handoff capabilities? It will be utilized by older and some newer wireless clients. Example: Samsung Galaxy S5, Note 9, Samsung Tab A 2015.

A single wireless router is not an option. Too far from one end of property to another.

With router, estimated 2 additional access points, controller (if needed)….less that $1500. Willing to look around for used even if I have to buy older equipment.
(better?) :)

I hope I filled in the blanks.

Thanks again.
 
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Let me try and rephrase.

Is there such thing as consumer or mid-range enterprise WiFi equipment that has true seamless handoff capabilities? It will be utilized by older and some newer wireless clients. Example: Samsung Galaxy S5, Note 9, Samsung Tab A 2015.

A single wireless router is not an option. Too far from one end of property to another.

With router, estimated 2 additional access points, controller (if needed)….less that $1500. Willing to look around for used even if I have to buy older equipment.
(better?) :)

I hope I filled in the blanks.

Thanks again.

1 x AX88U (as ai mesh router), 2 or 3 AC86U in mesh node mode with roaming assistant enabled (-70 default) and you should be good to go.

750USD for that and follow @L&LD and @OzarkEdge install guides.

Job done.
 
Is there such thing as consumer or mid-range enterprise WiFi equipment that has true seamless handoff capabilities?
The simple honest answer is NO.

Wi-Fi was not designed to behave as you describe. Clients are in control of the Access Point (AP) that they connect to and when to switch to another. The switching time can be minimized, but to the extent you desire.

Newer devices are somewhat better at minimizing the time it takes to switch between APs, but results vary.

In the roaming testing I've done, I typically see roam (switching between APs) in the multiple seconds. This is usually fast enough to result in temporary glitches in music or video streams. But this may not be fast enough to keep voice-over-WiFi calls from dropping, depending on the application you're using.

Multi-part series on roaming starts here:
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/33195-wi-fi-roaming-secrets-revealed
 
Every forum I've searched cannot answer this basic question because there are other factors that are typically included that make it different than what I want.

My question is:

Can I build a WiFi system in my house where I can be on a WiFi call, walk from the basement of my home to the top floor, move between strongest access points, and not drop the call? My goal is to not drop the signal at all as I move between points. Period. This would have to work with some legacy WiFi clients too. Think old Samsung phones, tablets, etc.

Can this be achieved without enterprise-level equipment? I am willing to spend some money to make this work but not a stupid amount.

Just to be clear, it would be something like a whole house speaker system playing the same song. As I move from the basement to speakers around the house, there is no drop, I just hear the new speaker louder as I walk past it.

Silly, but I hope you know what I'm trying to achieve. I understand that in most scenarios the client controls the connection to each AP, but if the WiFi network was simultaneously transmitting at all access points, the client wouldn't know the difference, right? It would just move seamlessly throughout, on the same channel. Even if the radio "heard" all AP's it would seamlessly stay with the strongest.

Would a mesh network with wired backhaul work here? I understand that some of these offerings are no better than a few AP's with same SSID and password.

Thank you.
Brad

Generally yes, and there could be issues that you most likely can work out or live with. WiFi can be hard.

Asus users here will recommend you consider the Asus wired/wireless AiMesh system that can be built and upgraded (and handed down) incrementally using normal Asus wireless routers that support AiMesh. The system encourages wireless clients to roam from node to node, and in the absence of roaming standards implemented by the both network and the clients, the client ultimately decides where to connect. Some are better at this than others as WiFi technology continues to improve for muti-node networks in the home... performance is not at 100%.

I don't operate like this, but you could install a 2-node wireless AiMesh system and try it. If your not happy, return it.

OE
 
I should qualify my answer above. It all depends on your definition of "seamless".

If "seamless" is:
-= 0. definitely no

10's of milliseconds, very unlikely, possible only with APs and application-specific devices (Vocera communicators, dedicated VoWiFi phones)

100's of milliseconds to < 5 seconds, possible with APs and devices supporting 802.11k and v. This may not be fast enough to prevent VoWiFi calls from dropping.
 
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Let me try and rephrase.

Is there such thing as consumer or mid-range enterprise WiFi equipment that has true seamless handoff capabilities? It will be utilized by older and some newer wireless clients. Example: Samsung Galaxy S5, Note 9, Samsung Tab A 2015.

A single wireless router is not an option. Too far from one end of property to another.

With router, estimated 2 additional access points, controller (if needed)….less that $1500. Willing to look around for used even if I have to buy older equipment.
(better?) :)

I hope I filled in the blanks.

Thanks again.

Sorry, I will go on assuming here in light of the continuing lack of information. :)

How big is the property? How will/does the construction materials attenuate WiFi signals? What are you currently using and specifically, what limitations are you facing besides the instantaneous 'handoff' which seems an unrealistic expectation (as I hope you are gathering by now)?

A single RT-AC3100 covered (easily) a 5000 SqFt home. The RT-AC86U matched and exceeded that coverage over the 'AC3100 and also markedly increased the throughput. The RT-AX88U did the same over the older RT-AC86U. The links below are available from the link in my signature below.

RT-AC3100 Report https://www.snbforums.com/threads/s...-go-with-the-rt-ac1900p-v3.34748/#post-281391

RT-AX88U Upgrade https://www.snbforums.com/threads/b...ta-is-now-available.60037/page-31#post-531024


Note that the RT-AC3100 replaced a (crude/ISP specific) 'mesh' system that was extended 'wired'. And utterly destroyed it. :)

In most homes, I remove all extra 'nodes'/AP's and thereby giving a better overall experience for my customers.

With $1,500 to play with though, @Trip should be able to help you get rid of most of that easily and get you very close to what you want (but not quite 'there', depending on the client devices you want to continue using). :)

If the home/property really needs 3 or more wireless AP's for full coverage, nothing less than a commercial installation (let alone the commercial equipment) will give you anything close to what you desire.

Looking forward to more details provided from your end and @Trip's contributions here too. :)
 
Too many of the responses are focused on WiFi coverage....that is the easy part. Getting seamless and instant roaming...just not really possible without having control and optimizations on the client and the WiFi APs. If you think about how an AP "encourages" a client to roam, you will understand why it isn't possible to be "seamless and transparent". The AP encourages the move by forcing a disconnect. So your client absolutely loses its WiFi connection for a short duration until it connects to a different AP. "Most" consumer clients will not support/implement the .11 enhancements that help.....or your consumer WiFi gear won't either....or at least not well.

I walk around my house talking on WebEx, Zoom, Hangouts, Meet, FaceTime, and ATT WiFi Calling on a daily basis. The only way I can 99% sure not have drop outs is to use a standard cellular call. Otherwise as my phone hops across the three APs at my house, there may be a pause/glitch in the audio/video and the impact various depending upon the application. Hangouts and Meet seem to recover the best. WebEx...well...that really depends on what your subscription is using for the VoIP backend...but in my company account, it for sure cuts out but usually recovers in 1-3 seconds. Zoom...too new to it to really have enough roaming experience. FaceTime, rarely use while roaming the house. ATT WiFi...it does not like roaming APs at all.
 
@MichaelCG the counterpoint is that with enough WiFi coverage, there is no AP hopping. :)
 
@MichaelCG the counterpoint is that with enough WiFi coverage, there is no AP hopping. :)
Based on what the OP described, I believe OP's property is multi-story. None single router/AP is applicable in this case.
That said, I believe a simple network setup can reduce the recover time to <5 seconds (Router with multiple APs, even with different SSID, non .k .v), at least in my experience.
 
@Budgeter you may have missed that the link to the RT-AC3100 also includes a multistory structure too. And, it replaced a router + AP setup 'easily'. ;)
 
@Budgeter you may have missed that the link to the RT-AC3100 also includes a multistory structure too. And, it replaced a router + AP setup 'easily'. ;)
Yeah, I actually missed that. But still, I don't consider 3 floor (basement, ground, 1 upper floor) multi-story, although it technically is.

Since we know little to nothing about OP's structure, let's assume it is the worst case here.
  1. At least 4 floors (1 basement + ground + 2 upper floors, or 1 ground + 3 upper floors). All with high ceiling.
  2. OP's house is not in US => There is a high chance OP's house is made using concrete + brick, steel, etc. These materials significantly reduces signal compared to what are used in US.
My friend lives in Vietnam, and his house uses the materials that I stated above. One TP-Link C2300 (which is pretty close to 86U, performance wise IIRC), can cover 3 floors (where it is placed + 1 upper + 1 floor down below), but not so much for the fourth/fifth floor, so another 2 AP are needed to cover the whole house.

His house is 6 floors btw (1 ground + 5 upper floors). It is pretty common in Vietnam too.
 
@Budgeter I don't consider that 3 stories either. The customers' home I wrote about had a basement and 3 upper floors. :)

Interesting for your Vietnam friend's house. With 6 levels, I would leave some without WiFi, myself. ;)

Curious what kind of SqFt that would be on the 6 levels (or, per level)?
 
@Budgeter I don't consider that 3 stories either. The customers' home I wrote about had a basement and 3 upper floors. :)

Interesting for your Vietnam friend's house. With 6 levels, I would leave some without WiFi, myself. ;)

Curious what kind of SqFt that would be on the 6 levels (or, per level)?
I'm not so sure, but should be around 700-900 sqft per floor. It's really expensive to buy land in Vietnam, so people always try to build floors instead to increase living area.
 
With that kind of layout per floor, putting a router closer to a corner vs. dead center will maximize the signal throughout the home (if the router is placed 'normally' with the 'donut hole' pattern directly above and below the antennae).

As might placing the router at a 90-degree angle may help too, overall. With the donut 'hole' pointed towards an infrequently used area. ;)
 
@bradm123 - In short, not quite. Not like your sound analogy at least; that's not the way wifi works. That said, roaming can be made to feel practically seamless to the end-user, provided you have APs and clients that support and properly implement 802.11r (fast-transition (FT) roaming), 802.11k (neighbor/beacon reporting) and 802.11v (roaming assistance and power-savings, aka BSS transition management).

Your clients: S5 - .11r only (source), Note 9 - .11r, k and v (source), Tab A (2015) - pretty sure .11r only (no source). So level of seamless roaming may be compromised to varying degrees for certain clients, regardless of the system you choose. You may have to upgrade some, post-testing.

Before getting into specifics, a few questions:
  1. What is your ISP type (cable, fiber or DSL?) and speed in Mb/s, download and upload?
  2. How many square feet is your house (roughly)? Is it a really long/weird shape, or more typical?
  3. On how many floors do you want to operate your wifi devices? Do you want outside coverage?
  4. On what floor does the ISP connection enter the house?
  5. Do you have any amount of wired backbone in the house, either ethernet or TV coaxial?
Answer those and we can get to recommendations.
 
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