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Cutting TV Cord w. VZ but only have Coax in House - which MoCa Adapter?

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username0475

Regular Contributor
Convinced my parents to drop Verizon TV & switch to YouTube TV.

Their track house builder didn't give them any patch panel & so the VZ folks just basically punched a hole through the siding from the VZ ONT box & ran coax into 4 rooms: den, family, master, & guest.

Since I don't see a way to easily or cheaply to pull ethernet to even one of those rooms, I'd figured a MoCA adapter would be able to take coax coming out of the wall & into the ethernet port of a new WiFi router. This router would serve internet to all the Roku's & Chromecast in their house for TV & video content streaming.

So the plan is to get rid of VZ set top boxes; get rid of the GS1100 VZ router & adapt the coax in the den into ethernet into a new router capable of sending wifi, MoCA, or powerline to rest of house

Questions:
1) Which MoCA adapter options can I look into bridging the coax into the ethernet of the new non-VZ WiFi router if I just need internet not VZ TV?
2) Is there any speed caps or degradation when using a MoCA adapter?
3) Do I need a MoCA POE Filter?
 
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2) Is there any speed caps or degradation when using a MoCA adapter?
MoCA is peer-to-peer so any two nodes will attempt to communicate at the highest spec supported by BOTH nodes. (e.g. a standard MoCA 2.0 and a bonded MoCA 2.0 node would communicate, at best, at standard MoCA 2.0 speeds)
  • MoCA 1.1 ... up to 170 Mbps
  • Standard MoCA 2.0 ... up to 400 Mbps in a 3+ node environment; up to 500 Mbps if only 2 MoCA nodes are present on the coax.
  • Bonded MoCA 2.0 ... up to 800 Mbps in a 3+ node environment; up to 1000 Mbps if only 2 MoCA nodes are present on the coax.
The G1100 Quantum Gateway is standard MoCA 2.0. >See here< for a number of available MoCA adapters and their associated bridge throughput speeds. A drawback of some early MoCA 1.1 adapters/products was their use of Fast Ethernet ports, which throttled the potential throughput to FastE's 100 Mbps. MoCA 2.0 products seem to all correctly use Gigabit Ethernet ports.​

MoCA's not as responsive as Ethernet, but preferable to either wireless or Powerline.

3) Do I need a MoCA POE Filter?
Not for security purposes, since the MoCA signals wouldn't pass through the ONT, but a MoCA filter on the input of the top-level splitter can help MoCA performance. (see here)
 
If you're keeping FiOS Internet service, why dump the G1100 Quantum Gateway? It can provide the MoCA LAN and Wi-Fi connections for other rooms.

Save the $12 a month.
Though I have seen recommendations online to find one secondhand hand on ebay or the MI424 to use as a MoCA adapter/extender.
 
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MoCA is peer-to-peer so any two nodes will attempt to communicate at the highest spec supported by BOTH nodes. (e.g. a standard MoCA 2.0 and a bonded MoCA 2.0 node would communicate, at best, at standard MoCA 2.0 speeds)
  • MoCA 1.1 ... up to 170 Mbps
  • Standard MoCA 2.0 ... up to 400 Mbps in a 3+ node environment; up to 500 Mbps if only 2 MoCA nodes are present on the coax.
  • Bonded MoCA 2.0 ... up to 800 Mbps in a 3+ node environment; up to 1000 Mbps if only 2 MoCA nodes are present on the coax.
The G1100 Quantum Gateway is standard MoCA 2.0. >See here< for a number of available MoCA adapters and their associated bridge throughput speeds. A drawback of some early MoCA 1.1 adapters/products was their use of Fast Ethernet ports, which throttled the potential throughput to FastE's 100 Mbps. MoCA 2.0 products seem to all correctly use Gigabit Ethernet ports.​

MoCA's not as responsive as Ethernet, but preferable to either wireless or Powerline.

Not for security purposes, since the MoCA signals wouldn't pass through the ONT, but a MoCA filter on the input of the top-level splitter can help MoCA performance. (see here)

krkaufman - I recognize you from the TiVo community forums.
Fancy meeting you here too. Though not surprised that an expert like you makes the DIY circuit. LOL!

Anyhow, from what I interpret of your feedback- I think you are saying that the MoCA 2.0 adapters will work for what I am trying to do: not have to pull ethernet cabling, get rid of the VZ router, use existing coax & allow plug & play of a non- VZ WiFi router - true?

If true - are these the proper adapters for my use case?

 
Save the $12 a month.
Though I have seen recommendations online to find one secondand hand on ebay or the MI424 to use as a MoCA adapter/extender.
Thoughts on the MI424-WR:
  • It's MoCA 1.1, so limited to 170 Mbps max MoCA throughput (see next bullet);
  • MI424-WR Rev. F and prior used a built-in Fast Ethernet switch, so limited LAN throughput to 100 Mbps (image link);
  • So go for Rev. I, for any MI424-WR.
I'd think you'd want to look into swapping to an Ethernet WAN connection were you to want to switch away from one of the supported FiOS routers capable of a MoCA WAN connection. And if you go that route, see the list of available MoCA adapters linked in my previous post, especially the WCB3000N, MM1000 and Verizon FiOS Network Adapter products.
 
I think you are saying that the MoCA 2.0 adapters will work for what I am trying to do: not have to pull ethernet cabling, get rid of the VZ router, use existing coax & allow plug & play of a non- VZ WiFi router - true?
The main roadblock to eliminating the FiOS router, I believe, is switching to an Ethernet WAN connection. As long as the only connection between the ONT and router is coax, I believe a FiOS router, whether leased or owned, will be required.

(The FiOS coax/MoCA WAN connection is via MoCA C Band channel C4, so you wouldn't be able to use some retail MoCA adapter, which only support MoCA D band, to bridge the ONT's MoCA WAN connection to a third-party router's Ethernet WAN port.)

are these the proper adapters for my use case?
You haven't specified any throughput requirements, so "proper" can't be evaluated. If cost isn't a concern, then sure; though they may be overkill depending on what you want/need for throughput.

As a FiOS customer, the FiOS Network Adapter is especially attractive as a remote endpoint MoCA adapter, as a bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter with its 4 built-in GigE ports. (It's always baffled me that FiOS offers two MoCA endpoints that are bonded MoCA 2.0, but their G1100 Quantum Gateway is just standard MoCA 2.0.)
 
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Thoughts on the MI424-WR:
  • It's MoCA 1.1, so limited to 170 Mbps max MoCA throughput (see next bullet);
  • MI424-WR Rev. F and prior used a built-in Fast Ethernet switch, so limited LAN throughput to 100 Mbps (image link);
  • So go for Rev. I, for any MI424-WR.
I'd think you'd want to look into swapping to an Ethernet WAN connection were you to want to switch away from one of the supported FiOS routers capable of a MoCA WAN connection. And if you go that route, see the list of available MoCA adapters linked in my previous post, especially the WCB3000N, MM1000 and Verizon FiOS Network Adapter products.


The main roadblock to eliminating the FiOS router, I believe, is switching to an Ethernet WAN connection. As long as the only connection between the ONT and router is coax, I believe a FiOS router, whether leased or owned, will be required.

(The FiOS coax/MoCA WAN connection is via MoCA C Band channel C4, so you wouldn't be able to use some retail MoCA adapter, which only support MoCA D band, to bridge the ONT's MoCA WAN connection to a third-party router's Ethernet WAN port.).

Based on these 2 highlighted quote from you - it seems like without an official VZ Gateway, those MoCA adapters will not be able to do the connection I am seeking -true?

I think the Verizon FiOS Network Adapter installation page does intimate that the router has to first be connected to coax intimating that this is a MoCA capable router and the only ones I know are from VZ.

You haven't specified any throughput requirements, so "proper" can't be evaluated. If cost isn't a concern, then sure; though they may be overkill depending on what you want/need for throughput.

As a FiOS customer, the FiOS Network Adapter is especially attractive as a remote endpoint MoCA adapter, as a bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter with its 4 built-in GigE ports. (It's always baffled me that FiOS offers two MoCA endpoints that are bonded MoCA 2.0, but their G1100 Quantum Gateway is just standard MoCA 2.0.)

Since my parents are subscribing for 100/100 FiOS, and we tested the G1100 yesterday throughout the house with YouTube TV streaming via a Roku - it seems that this is stable & acceptable.

So now I am starting to get a clearer picture of using a MoCA adapter to replace the G1100 is not possible. MoCA adapter by itself without a VZ gateway doesn't pass through the VZ band required to produce internet - true?
 
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So now I am starting to get a clearer picture of using a MoCA adapter to replace the G1100 is not possible. MoCA adapter by itself without a VZ gateway doesn't pass through the VZ band required to produce internet - true?
I can't guarantee 100% that I understand what you are asking, so I'll echo my earlier comments which I believe may be in the ballpark...

WAN ::
  • A FiOS WAN connection can be made either via Ethernet or MoCA.
  • A FiOS Ethernet WAN connection would allow connection of either a FiOS router or third-party router via the device's WAN Ethernet port.
  • A FiOS MoCA WAN connection would require a compatible FiOS router, capable of making the MoCA C Band connection to the ONT.

    It's possible that a FiOS router could be used to make the MoCA WAN connection, but be configured/bridged in a way that allows a third-party router to act as the primary router, but I'm not familiar enough to confirm or provide an example. Regardless, such a setup wouldn't meet the goal of avoiding the lease or purchase of a FiOS router.

LAN ::

Once a WAN connection has been established, a MoCA LAN can be established either by a MoCA-enabled FiOS router (which has built-in MoCA bridging) or a MoCA adapter, connected to a third-party router's Ethernet LAN, being connected to the shared coax. And any retail MoCA adapter can then be used as a remote MoCA node, with the earlier caveats regarding throughput remaining.
 
What connection are you seeking, specifically?
Internet only.
Dropping Verizon TV and the associated set-top boxes.
See attached picture of the ONT.
It's hooked up ask coax entry into the house.
 

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Since my parents are subscribing for 100/100 FiOS
A MI424-WR Rev. I may suffice as a cheap replacement for the leased G1100, from a wired Ethernet/MoCA perspective, to match those speeds (MoCA 1.1 being capable of up to 170 Mbps) --- but it may not be as robust on the wireless side of the equation.
 
I can't guarantee 100% that I understand what you are asking, so I'll echo my earlier comments which I believe may be in the ballpark...

WAN ::
  • A FiOS WAN connection can be made either via Ethernet or MoCA.
  • A FiOS Ethernet WAN connection would allow connection of either a FiOS router or third-party router via the device's WAN Ethernet port.
  • A FiOS MoCA WAN connection would require a compatible FiOS router, capable of making the MoCA C Band connection to the ONT.

    It's possible that a FiOS router could be used to make the MoCA WAN connection, but be configured/bridged in a way that allows a third-party router to act as the primary router, but I'm not familiar enough to confirm or provide an example. Regardless, such a setup wouldn't meet the goal of avoiding the lease or purchase of a FiOS router.
I think you got it above in blue & based on my requirements:
  • Use my own router & can't do ethernet cabling .
  • Therefore, I need a FiOS WAN connection via a MoCA bridge capable of making a Band C connection to the ONT.
  • Only way to do that is to use compatible VZ router prior to the 3rd party router.

LAN ::

Once a WAN connection has been established, a MoCA LAN can be established either by a MoCA-enabled FiOS router (which has built-in MoCA bridging) or a MoCA adapter, connected to a third-party router's Ethernet LAN, being connected to the shared coax. And any retail MoCA adapter can then be used as a remote MoCA node, with the earlier caveats regarding throughput remaining.

I think this LAN connection as you described would be if I wanted to extend ethernet connection into other areas of the house. Which is not at the moment a high priority.
Just trying to get the first connection from the ONT to the 3rd party router is LOL!
 
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A MI424-WR Rev. I may suffice as a cheap replacement for the leased G1100, from a wired Ethernet/MoCA perspective, to match those speeds (MoCA 1.1 being capable of up to 170 Mbps) --- but it may not be as robust on the wireless side of the equation.
The price discrepancy between the MI424-WR Rev1 vs. the G1100 is ~$>150+ in many cases!
 
I think you got it above in blue & based on my requirements:
  • Use my own router & can't do ethernet cabling .
  • Therefore, I need a FiOS WAN connection via a MoCA bridge capable of making a Band C connection to the ONT.
  • Only way to do that is to use compatible VZ router prior to the 3rd party router.
Sounds correct, for a MoCA WAN connection. Though, again, I'm not familiar with the options for configuring the FiOS router, effectively in bridge mode, to support a third-party router as primary. DSLReports is likely rife with instructions.

That said, what about having FiOS switch you to an Ethernet LAN connection? The OP says you couldn't/wouldn't run Ethernet to all rooms, but what is the feasibility of a single Cat6 connection between the ONT and the FiOS router (or other third-party router) -- including relocating the router, if necessary/feasible?

Nevermind this last paragraph; I see the OP actually said "even one of those rooms":
Since I don't see a way to easily or cheaply to pull ethernet to even one of those rooms
 
Sounds correct, for a MoCA WAN connection. Though, again, I'm not familiar with the options for configuring the FiOS router, effectively in bridge mode, to support a third-party router as primary. DSLReports is likely rife with instructions.

That said, what about having FiOS switch you to an Ethernet LAN connection? The OP says you couldn't/wouldn't run Ethernet to all rooms, but what is the feasibility of a single Cat6 connection between the ONT and the FiOS router (or other third-party router) -- including relocating the router, if necessary/feasible?


Yes that is the internal debate right now: if we should hire VZ or a low voltage cable guy to come out & put in the ethernet.

As one of the picture I attached earlier depicted, the builder didn't provide my parents any distribution panel inside their basement - so all the data cables are splitted & run from outside & dispersed into the walls directly form outside.

So where the current G1100 is connected to the PC in the den, if we relocate the new WAN connection into the basement & not have a direct connection to the PC in the den - ie shorter Cat6 cable run if we went into the basement from the ONT vs. into den - then really the only question is can the new 3rd party router provide WiFi signal from basement all the way up 2-3 levels.

Obviously - long term gain - at the expense$ of having a VZ truck come out in the short run - is that having ethernet will future proof any data needs.
 
Some tidbits from DSLReports...

Confirming my earlier comments...
Note for older installations: If your WAN connection between the ONT and the primary router is coax, you will not find any retail versions of routers available that support the MoCA standard. To use a different primary router, you will need to get the WAN connection switched over to Ethernet (Verizon Support can take care of this quickly), or bridge your router through the Actiontec or FiOS Quantum Gateway. (link)


Except the following FAQ touches on something I was going to mention, whether other products might exist on the market that supported the MoCA C Band WAN connection...
How to use a MOCA WAN bridge? (link)

When keeping the coax WAN connection is the only option, a MOCA WAN bridge can provide a solution. By placing a MOCA WAN bridge between the ONT and a user router, one can create a layer two bridge between the coax WAN and the cat5 WAN port of a user router.

Two MOCA bridges that MOCA WAN are available from various sources (eBay, Newegg, Amazon, etc.
• Netgear MCAB1001 * - available only in pairs.
• D-Link DXN-221 * - Pair or DXN-220 single.
Note that the Motorola NIM-100 and Actiontec ECB2200 are not suitable as they do not support the MOCA WAN channel.
No clue if the products are still available, even after-market, or would actually work as described.

And I'm having trouble finding the notes on configuring the FiOS router in bridge mode. edit: Though I did find this page, discussing configuration of the MI424-Rev. I as a WAN bridge:
 
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So where the current G1100 is connected to the PC in the den, if we relocate the new WAN connection into the basement & not have a direct connection to the PC in the den - ie shorter Cat6 cable run if we went into the basement from the ONT vs. into den - then really the only question is can the new 3rd party router provide WiFi signal from basement all the way up 2-3 levels.
Can be addressed using MoCA-connected wireless access points (e.g. WCB3000N for $20) or MoCA-connected wireless mesh satellites, but a single router optimally located to cover the home would obviously be better.
 
Some tidbits from DSLReports...

Confirming my earlier comments...
Note for older installations: If your WAN connection between the ONT and the primary router is coax, you will not find any retail versions of routers available that support the MoCA standard. To use a different primary router, you will need to get the WAN connection switched over to Ethernet (Verizon Support can take care of this quickly), or bridge your router through the Actiontec or FiOS Quantum Gateway. (link)


Except the following FAQ touches on something I was going to mention, whether other products might exist on the market that supported the MoCA C Band WAN connection...

No clue if the products are still available, even after-market, or would actually work as described.

And I'm having trouble finding the notes on configuring the FiOS router in bridge mode. edit: Though I did find this page, discussing configuration of the MI424-Rev. I as a WAN bridge:
By George, I think you got it!

1) u confirmed what I had SUSPECTED - save for some vintage MoCA adapters that are hard to find, there is no 3rd party router nor adapter that can preserve my coax & enable MoCA WAN.

2) u confirmed an inexpensive way to get MoCA WAN -if I am deadset on using coax- is to get a FiOS MI424WR REV1 -
  • Pros: plenty of preowned equipment available as they are $20 all day long on Craigslist or ebay.
  • Pros: pretty easy to set up in front of 3rd party router
  • Cons: could get lemon unit
  • Cons: unsure where to get firmware updates if needed
  • Cons: most likely never to get 1GB speeds as speeds are capped or limited on purpose by VZ.
AHHH but now the the coup de grace & what is flipping me to Ethernet.

Can be addressed using MoCA-connected wireless access points (e.g. WCB3000N for $20) or MoCA-connected wireless mesh satellites, but a single router optimally located to cover the home would obviously be better.

3) was worried I had to do a long run of Cat6 Ethernet from the ONT back to the den where PC ideally would connect to router as it is currently. But this is a misconception! Because:
  • Don't need a long run of Cat6 because if I add a couple wireless MoCA extenders around the house, it negates the need to put the new 3rd party router in its old location (den) for better range g coverage .
  • Can do myself a short Cat6 ethernet run from ONT into basement & leave it there hook to new router. Again that picture I posted earlier where the ONT coax going through the siding is my entry point into basement!
  • Add MoCA extenders wherever I need stronger WiFi or direct connect internet.
  • Pros: extenders allow me to leave router close to Ethernet point of entry in basement. Negates need for a long ethernet cabling .
  • Pros: actually extends range of broadband when using MoCA extenders.
  • Cons: have to get a couple of MoCA wireless extenders since Main router is in basement now . More hardware to take care of.
But I think I have all I need to go forward .
Thanks again for talking it out with me!
 
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