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Help With High Latency Seen On WiFi LAN Traffic For AC3100 & AC88u - Updated Test Info & Findings

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Wildcatz_1

Occasional Visitor
HI there need some help.

I have a AC3100 (Main Floor) acting as an AP and an AC88u (Lower Floor) as the router.
The AC3100 is hardwired into a wall port that terminates in a patch on lower floor going into a Cisco business router that is then hardwired to the AC88u for DHCP and a connect from that to cable modem.

  • I have 2.4 enabled (20/40 Mhz) on the AC88u for older devices and 5.0 enabled (N/AC on 20/40/80 Mhz) on the AC3100 for newer.
  • All hardwired connects work well with very low latency 0.535 ms etc
  • All WiFi clients work BUT have high latency even if close to the router/AP.
  • Pinging from a WiFi client (5ghz) to a wired results in low latency, all good.
  • Pinging from a WiFi client (5ghz) to another WiFi client results in high latency (starts at 3ms and within 2 pings is up in the 80/90 ms and has exceeded 300ms, sometimes maxed at 500 ms !
  • Pinging from hard wired to WiFi client also shows the high latency.

So from the above tests and a number of others I have done, it would appear to point that the high latency is definitely related to WiFi portion. This latency seems excessive considering how close the clients are (within 20-30ft) to the AP in some cases. I have even taken a laptop and tested at multiple distances, all result in the same latency.

Never saw this high a latency on older routers for LAN traffic across WiFi.

I am currently running the latest beta (2697) on both but have also tried Merlin’s excellent FW, all of which give me the same results.

I’m not sure whether I am missing a setting or if this is the best I should expect from this kit. Connecting new 802.11ac MU-MIMO also doesn’t change the latency being seen.

Any advice on what I may be missing with regards to settings etc is greatly appreciated.

Alternatively if anyone else is seeing similar things, let me know.

Thanks

WC
 
0.5ms for wire is actually high latency. you want your LAN to be between 0.1-0.3ms. Older NICs or some dedicated NICs have a higher latency from having their own CPU which has higher latency but doesnt rely on your main CPU.

Pinging between wifi latency is affected by power save and idle. Check the advanced settings and NIC settings.

Check for wifi interference such as radar, other APs on the same frequencies, objects in the way (stacking laptops can cause it)
 
You are right and my apologies I quoted the wrong speed. Wired to Wired ping is actually 0.28 to 0.31ms. WiFi to Wired is approx 4ms, WiFi to WiFi and Wired to WiFi is the extreme high latency I mentioned.

Using Apple devices for client so don't have a lot of NIC related options.

As an example of a higher (not the worst I have seen on it as mentioned) ping from Wired (N client) to WiFi, here is a sample when pinging to an Apple TV 4th Gen (AC MU-MIMO client):

PING 1
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=103.426 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=19.194 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=41.328 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=65.087 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=87.256 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=108.567 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=129.474 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=48.496 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=69.482 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=9 ttl=64 time=91.976 ms

PING 2
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=293.516 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=107.931 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=29.455 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=4.025 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=73.895 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=92.913 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=14.516 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=36.583 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=56.007 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=9 ttl=64 time=79.242 ms


If I place the ATV 4th Gen into a place with hard wired connect and ping it again from the same N client, here are the results:

64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=4.374 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=2.573 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=2.920 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=1.788 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=1.065 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=2.366 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=1.943 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=2.623 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=2.687 ms
64 bytes from 192.x.x.x: icmp_seq=9 ttl=64 time=1.563 ms

thanks for any further help that can be offered.


0.5ms for wire is actually high latency. you want your LAN to be between 0.1-0.3ms. Older NICs or some dedicated NICs have a higher latency from having their own CPU which has higher latency but doesnt rely on your main CPU.

Pinging between wifi latency is affected by power save and idle. Check the advanced settings and NIC settings.

Check for wifi interference such as radar, other APs on the same frequencies, objects in the way (stacking laptops can cause it)
 
That is actually normal because the ATV is using the same settings as a mobile phone when it comes to wifi. It uses less power so you see the same thing. If you try the same thing with an android phone you will see the same results but if you use the app called "Wifi High Performance" which disables the power saving for wifi than you will see the better result.

Theres nothing wrong with your wifi, its just the way the device is configured. Do a wifi to wifi test using 2 laptops and you will see some good results.
 
I would agree with the ATV piece but what is weird is this is happening from desktops to each other over WiFi. I borrowed 2 x 2014 Mac Mini's and added them to the AP (AC3100) and what is strange is that although they show PHY Mode of 802.11AC @ 1300 Mbps TX Rate (on the mini diags themselves) they show a Link Speed of only 11 Mbit/s ! This seems strange when the older Macbook Pro (MBP) I am using to test from (only 802.11n) connects at a Link Speed of 450 Mbit/s with 450 Mbps TX Rate in the same location.

This also definitely appears to be WiFi Lan traffic handling (by the Asus IMO) related due to further testing I did. One thing I do want to try and fix is why the older MBP can connect at 450 Mbit/s Link Speed but Mac Mini Testers show PHY of 802.11AC with a Link Speed of only 11Mbit/s ?

Any thoughts on settings on the AC3100 that I should look at ? I have the AC88u as well in use at the router level but have seen the same results there.

Appreciate the help with this. I will also try and break out an older 802.11n only router and test against that


Summary of the test results below (included Google just for an external latency test):


Tests From Mac Mini Tester #1

Mac Mini Tester #1 WiFi to MBP (both connected to AC3100)

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 2.367/189.994/1006.106/291.943 ms

Mac Mini Tester #1 WiFi to Mac Mini Tester 2 WiFi (both connected to AC3100)

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 3.291/324.676/1002.906/312.427 ms

Mac Mini Tester #1 WiFi to Google.com

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 12.741/14.200/17.425/1.380 ms​


Tests From Mac Mini Tester #2

Mac Mini Tester #2 WiFi to MBP (both connected to AC3100)

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 2.379/176.682/1002.944/327.199 ms

Mac Mini Tester #2 WiFi to Mac Mini Tester 1 WiFi (both connected to AC3100)

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 23.865/248.639/617.065/223.895 ms

Mac Mini Tester #1 WiFi to Google.com

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 12.884/17.047/27.873/4.670 ms​


Tests From MBP

MBP To Mac Mini Tester #1 WiFi (both connected to AC3100)

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 4.773/179.994/621.168/215.714 ms


MBP To Mac Mini Tester #2 WiFi (both connected to AC3100)

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 17.887/212.556/600.719/171.421 ms


MBP To Google.com

10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 12.848/16.568/23.079/3.344 ms​
 
If you are getting 11Mb/s that would significantly affect latency. It could be running wireless A or wireless B (though wireless A should be 54Mb/s). You can use a usb adapter if you are getting bad wifi rates on the laptop.
Some devices uses power savings on wifi and if your laptop is showing very low rates than it could mean that the wifi card doesnt support the newer protocols (you cant expect a wifi N or G card to use wireless AC even if they have 5Ghz).

Try disabling MU-MIMO and see if it helps. If wifi to wifi seems to be an issue than it could be a problem with MU-MIMO or some setting that relates to multiple clients. Make sure to use things like a short preamble and other settings for higher density traffic.
 
Thanks for the reply. What is weird is it is the 2 x 2014 Mac Mini's that are showing Link Speeds of 11 Mbit/s (two separate units). I pulled out an old N56u and WNDR4500 as well (to ensure the Mini's could connect at other link speeds) for testing and sure enough they connected to both of those (routers limited to N only of course) at 450 Mbit/s. Due to this it would point back to the AC handling/configuration of the AC3100 and AC88u IMO but no matter what setting I choose or turn off as the case may be, I still see only 11 Mbit/s when connecting the Mini's. As mentioned above, what is also weird is that if you hold the Option key and click on the WiFi symbol in the menu bar it does show PHY mode of 802.11AC and TX Rate of 1300 Mbps which would make you believe that it is in fact connecting at that speed but again why Link Speed is showing only 11 Mbit/s when connecting to these Asus routers is what is frustrating/concerning. Could be a bug of course in OS X which I am looking into as well but seems weird they do connect with 'real' link speeds on N routers for example.

Disabling MU-MIMO didn't change anything unfortunately. For reference, the signal strength to these Mini's is 92% with very little noise so certainly doesn't appear to be related to that.

Any particular settings in the AC3100 & AC88u that you would consider changing to ?

Thanks again.



If you are getting 11Mb/s that would significantly affect latency. It could be running wireless A or wireless B (though wireless A should be 54Mb/s). You can use a usb adapter if you are getting bad wifi rates on the laptop.
Some devices uses power savings on wifi and if your laptop is showing very low rates than it could mean that the wifi card doesnt support the newer protocols (you cant expect a wifi N or G card to use wireless AC even if they have 5Ghz).

Try disabling MU-MIMO and see if it helps. If wifi to wifi seems to be an issue than it could be a problem with MU-MIMO or some setting that relates to multiple clients. Make sure to use things like a short preamble and other settings for higher density traffic.
 
im not sure of every setting in the router but try disabling power save, set multicast to 54Mb/s, set every setting to maximum and disable regulation. Basically set it for maximum performance.

It seems that you only have problems with wifi to wifi so tweaking the settings can help. If you did a firmware change or update it can help to reset your settings.
 
I have a AC3100 (Main Floor) acting as an AP and an AC88u (Lower Floor) as the router.
The AC3100 is hardwired into a wall port that terminates in a patch on lower floor going into a Cisco business router that is then hardwired to the AC88u for DHCP and a connect from that to cable modem.

  • I have 2.4 enabled (20/40 Mhz) on the AC88u for older devices and 5.0 enabled (N/AC on 20/40/80 Mhz) on the AC3100 for newer.
  • All hardwired connects work well with very low latency 0.535 ms etc
  • All WiFi clients work BUT have high latency even if close to the router/AP.
  • Pinging from a WiFi client (5ghz) to a wired results in low latency, all good.
  • Pinging from a WiFi client (5ghz) to another WiFi client results in high latency (starts at 3ms and within 2 pings is up in the 80/90 ms and has exceeded 300ms, sometimes maxed at 500 ms !
  • Pinging from hard wired to WiFi client also shows the high latency.

No Macs support wide channels in 2.4GHz, so you can safely set the Asus channels to 20MHz only, and disable TurboQAM - basically making them b/g/n for the 2.4GHz

The Mini's are AC1300 for 5GHz - running Broadcom 4360 chips, and their AC implementation is pretty sound - so keep them up there, and they'll be rightly happy...

Check your topology from the CM to Router A, and then you have the Cisco Router in the middle between router/AP "a" and router/ap "b" - take either the cisco out of the mix, or convert router B to AP only, and use the cisco for the routing on that segment if you must segment the two..

Sometimes it helps to sit down and draw a picture - and you might find something odd with the setup.

(tip - on Macs, Option-Click on the Airport menu, and it will show the BSSID and rates, along with channel info and other good stuff, it's an honest number, so use that, not the router/gui indication, as that might not be correct)
 
SFX, thanks for your reply. Thats the issue, as I mentioned when I Option Click on the Mini's WiFi I see PHY of 802.11AC and TX Rate of 1300 sitting at 80Mhz channel bandwidth on Chan 153 so all looks solid BUT looking at info on the Mac's Network Diagnostics it shows link speed of 11 Mbit/s thats where I'm seeing issues and not sure why.

Also to expand on the topology let me try and show it with a simple flow diagram in text below from Mac Mini back through cable Modem

Mac Mini ----> AC3100 (acting as AP only for 5ghz band only, 2.4 is disabled) ----> hard wired to wall socket ----> socket terminates in patch panel on lower floor ----> corresponding wall port patch on patch panel connected to Cisco business switch )not router, my apologies for confusion) ---> hard wired to AC88u (acting as DHCP router and supporting 2.4ghz only, 5ghz disabled) ----> Cable Modem

No matter what I switch the settings to on the Wireless options in AC3100 or the AC88u (if I turn 5ghz on there for testing), the link speed still only report 11 Mbit/s on the Mini's and I still see the latency issues. As mentioned above, when introducing an N56u or WNDR4500 as a test (n only) then the Mini's correctly display link speeds of 450 Mbit/s which shows they can connect and show true 'real' link speeds there but again when trying to get them to show correct link speed using AC cannot get above 11 Mbit/s even with a 92% signal strength and no other issues.

Not sure what I am missing setting wise at this point, any further help is appreciated

Thanks all



No Macs support wide channels in 2.4GHz, so you can safely set the Asus channels to 20MHz only, and disable TurboQAM - basically making them b/g/n for the 2.4GHz

The Mini's are AC1300 for 5GHz - running Broadcom 4360 chips, and their AC implementation is pretty sound - so keep them up there, and they'll be rightly happy...

Check your topology from the CM to Router A, and then you have the Cisco Router in the middle between router/AP "a" and router/ap "b" - take either the cisco out of the mix, or convert router B to AP only, and use the cisco for the routing on that segment if you must segment the two..

Sometimes it helps to sit down and draw a picture - and you might find something odd with the setup.

(tip - on Macs, Option-Click on the Airport menu, and it will show the BSSID and rates, along with channel info and other good stuff, it's an honest number, so use that, not the router/gui indication, as that might not be correct)
 
Another update here. I tried every setting I could find n the AC3100 with regards to Wireless and systematically tested from the mini's at each change, no difference. I then factory reset the AC3100, placed the unit back into AP mode and setup the SSID (very little other changes) and turned off 2.4. Test again, same thing, high latency and low link speeds.

The two issues remaining here are 1) the Mac Mini's will only connect to the AC3100 or AC88u with a Link Speed of 11 Mbit/s (showing in the OS X Network Utility) even though Option Click on Airport Icon and it shows 1300 TX Rate, PHY Mode of 802.11ac and 2) Traffic therefore between wireless devices has high latency, primarily appears to be related to item 1. Signal strength is consistently above 90% for those clients and again if I connect them to an old N only Asus N56u I can get Link Speed to 450 Mbit/s. So cannot figure out why these only connect at 11 Mbit/s to the AC3100 and AC88u. At this point it would appear to point to the routers (based on the fact they can connect at higher link rates on older Asus routers) or maybe even a bug in OS X. Either way I would expect others to experience the same (assuming they have similar setup of 2014 Mac Mini and these Asus Routers) but would like to hear from anyone that can test similar.

Not sure what more I can test at this point. For reference here is 1 of the test mini entries from the Wireless Log of the Ac3100 when the mini was just pinging out.

Associated Authorized RSSI PSM SGI STBC MUBF Tx rate Rx rate
Yes Yes -54dBm No Yes Yes No 1300M 24M

Any remaining ideas are greatly appreciated but as I said seems to point to either router issues (which would have to be in base FW if across both products IMO) or issues with the minis (however with their ability to reach higher link speeds on older N routers, would have to be something specific to AC).

Thanks
 
Mac Mini ----> AC3100 (acting as AP only for 5ghz band only, 2.4 is disabled) ----> hard wired to wall socket ----> socket terminates in patch panel on lower floor ----> corresponding wall port patch on patch panel connected to Cisco business switch )not router, my apologies for confusion) ---> hard wired to AC88u (acting as DHCP router and supporting 2.4ghz only, 5ghz disabled) ----> Cable Modem

Please - make a picture so folks can understand - https://www.draw.io

thx
 

Attachments

  • Network Topology.jpg
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That's pretty odd - Apple's BCM4360 driver (the typical chipset they use for AC support) is pretty mature and solid for the most part - wonder if this is something unique with newer Broadcom chipset in the 3100/88U...

Might have to get into the wireless captures - AirTool is free here - and works quite nicely with Wireshark 2.0.2...

Install it on one of the Mini's, and use the other Mini to move stuff around - what you want to look at is the QoS frames, as they'll tell you the MCS rates the Mini's and the AP's are using...

(quick sample pic below)

radiotap_mcs.png
 
Thanks SFX

I downloaded Airtool (never used it before) and captured on the receiving mini (sending mini sent a 5 gb file to the receiving one). I then pulled up Wireshark (used this many times but not recently) and threw the pcap into it.

After digging through the capture I found an entry (looking for QOS Data) from the source (sending Mac Mini) to the Asus AC3100. The layout was a little different than yours above but have included a screen grab of the pertinent info here. Looking at this, would show a data rate of 1299 Mb/s which would tie in with the Option Click of the Airport icon showing 1300 Mbit/s TX rate. Still don't know however why link speed is showing 11 Mbit/S.

Now in other areas of the capture I do see QOS null functions and Block Acks for 802.11a (with data rates of 6, 11 and 24 Mbit/s) from the same Mac out but drew the conclusion this was its radio looking out for WiFi within the SSID broadcast matching that speed and then rolled up and locked at the AC as I do not see any QOS DATA packets showing anything other than what is in the screen grab here.

Thoughts ?

Thanks again !




That's pretty odd - Apple's BCM4360 driver (the typical chipset they use for AC support) is pretty mature and solid for the most part - wonder if this is something unique with newer Broadcom chipset in the 3100/88U...

Might have to get into the wireless captures - AirTool is free here - and works quite nicely with Wireshark 2.0.2...

Install it on one of the Mini's, and use the other Mini to move stuff around - what you want to look at is the QoS frames, as they'll tell you the MCS rates the Mini's and the AP's are using...

(quick sample pic below)

View attachment 6115
 

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  • Packet Cap Mac 1 to AC3100.jpg
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Still don't know however why link speed is showing 11 Mbit/S.

So far, what the Mac is reporting - via Apple's WiFi diagnostics, and the Wireshark capture, it's pretty much what is expected from a Mac that supports 3*3:3 802.11ac...

So where is the report of 11Mbit connectivity coming from?
 
Now in other areas of the capture I do see QOS null functions and Block Acks for 802.11a (with data rates of 6, 11 and 24 Mbit/s) from the same Mac out but drew the conclusion this was its radio looking out for WiFi within the SSID broadcast matching that speed and then rolled up and locked at the AC as I do not see any QOS DATA packets showing anything other than what is in the screen grab here.

Management frames are always lower data rates than traffic frames - think control plane vs. data plane, and management frames need to get thru, hence the lower rates...
 
and that was exactly my thought, that Mac (through Airport diag) is showing correct TX & PHY modes, now backed up by Wireshark analysis. However the 11 Mbit/S Link Rate comes from the Network Utility built into OS X. Now this is not ruling out that there may be a bug in reported Link Speed within this tool of course (already have a bug filed with Apple just in case).

The reason this Link Speed started to concern me was due to 2 issues 1) the high latency I saw from WiFi to WiFi clients only (as mentioned above) and 2) that when connecting to these Asus routers I see the 11 Mbit/s Link Speed (which thought could be indicative of a 'real' problem) however if I connect to an 802.11n router (also Asus) I do see accurate Link Speed of 450 Mbit/s. Therefore trying to determine is this a Link Speed reporting bug that anything over 802.11n reports at 11 Mbit/s (can only really prove that by either having someone else connect their Mac mini to a separate AC3100 or Ac88u OR by picking up another 802.11ac (non Asus) router and testing against that).

Here is a screen grab of the Network Utility showing connection to the AC3100 and one of an Option Click at the same time from the Airport icon.




Management frames are always lower data rates than traffic frames - think control plane vs. data plane, and management frames need to get thru, hence the lower rates...
 

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Very odd indeed - wonder if this is a wrap-around issue with the linkrate - I don't have a 3-stream 802.11ac Mac to check against, more importantly, I don't have a 4*4:4 AP to check against...

Hmmm... but Airport Util and Wireshark says things are good, so I'm guessing that the Network Util is just an artifact...

mba2014_netutil.png


So maybe just an RT-AC3100/RT-AC88U thing maybe with regards to latency when it's in AP mode?

Just for info - how is the AP hooked up - which port is connected via Ethernet?

Any VLAN's set up on the Cisco Biz switch?
 
And just testing - WiFi (MBA2014) on the subnetted AP (medianet) which is separate from the main network - going out to google, and to a peer on the main network...

Your performance issues makes me think there's a loop in your network somewhere...

My layout at the moment; things change all the time here... but generally inside, we've always got decent performance...

Internet - CableModem --> Router - MainNet --> Peers <--> MediaNet (routed 192.168.16.0/24) --> This client

astro:~ $ ping www.google.com
PING www.google.com (70.186.24.23): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 70.186.24.23: icmp_seq=0 ttl=57 time=12.993 ms
64 bytes from 70.186.24.23: icmp_seq=1 ttl=57 time=12.319 ms
64 bytes from 70.186.24.23: icmp_seq=2 ttl=57 time=13.155 ms
64 bytes from 70.186.24.23: icmp_seq=3 ttl=57 time=12.842 ms
64 bytes from 70.186.24.23: icmp_seq=4 ttl=57 time=13.782 ms
^C
--- www.google.com ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 12.319/13.018/13.782/0.474 ms
astro:~ $ ping 192.168.1.50
PING 192.168.1.50 (192.168.1.50): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 192.168.1.50: icmp_seq=0 ttl=63 time=3.480 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.50: icmp_seq=1 ttl=63 time=2.173 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.50: icmp_seq=2 ttl=63 time=5.576 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.50: icmp_seq=3 ttl=63 time=2.191 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.50: icmp_seq=4 ttl=63 time=2.194 ms
^C
--- 192.168.1.50 ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 2.173/3.123/5.576/1.325 ms​
 

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