Improve outside coverage?

[bonerking]

I'm having some trouble with coverage as I'm not really able to stream music or do VoWifi on my patio, it skips or stops altogether. 5 or 2.4GHz doesn't seem to make a difference. I drew a rough drawing of the layout attached below.

I'm almost positive the brick half-wall is the issue as its effectively blocking line of sight to the router from the outdoor seating area. The other walls / doors are all wood and glass which shouldn't block the signal too much.
The patio ground level is also lower than the inside floor level, which is another potential issue.
Vertically the router is placed flush with the inside floor, I can't really place it higher because it would degrade reception in the basement bar too much.

The current router is an Asus RT-AC68U which has served me well and is rock stable so I don't really want to replace it, so I'm leaning towards buying an AP or an additional router, whichever is cheaper.

I have three ideas, either ceiling mount an AP in the living room which has free line of sight outdoors, ceiling mount an AP on the roof overhang outdoors (moisture/dust issues?), or wall mount a waterproof AP outdoors.

Looking for input on the best and preferably inexpensive way to solve this issue. Product suggestions, placement suggestions and so on.

 

[OzarkEdge]

Looking for input on the best and preferably inexpensive way to solve this issue. Product suggestions, placement suggestions and so on.

You can walk around with your 68U (no WAN) to prove coverage. If you can't locate it to cover inside, patio, and downstairs; then you need an additional wired AP or wired/wireless mesh node. The router sitting on the floor does not help. The goal is central, high, and in the clear.

If that is a commercial construction stairwell, potential fire-resistant construction (concrete block or double drywall) could present an obstacle to the WiFi signal.

You can add a wired AP once you decide where.

You could move the router up and out of the stair area to cover the inside and the patio. And put a wired AP in the basement.

A second Asus router that supports AiMesh would allow a 2-node wired or wireless AiMesh. A router like the RT-AC86U has about 20% more coverage than the 68U. Two 86Us, one up and one down, wireless, same SSID everywhere, would be a nice upgrade and give you hardware backup.

Another option similar to the 68U is the AC66U B1... less expensive. Unlike the 68U and 86U, the 66U B1 sits flat and can be wall-mounted, I think.

If you are using guest WLANs now, these will only run securely on the router, not the AP or mesh node. So, router placement could matter for guest WLAN coverage.

The 68U/66U B1 do not support Smart Connect band steering, so you would continue to use separate SSIDs.

If you are forced to put an AP outside, then an all AiMesh is not likely since the hardware is not very suitable for exterior use, so this negates the system advantages of AiMesh.

Not definitive but some things to consider.

OE

 

[Klueless]

OK. We know very little. Size / dimensions of your house? Current signal levels?

That said I like both of your location ideas. When you say AP were you thinking "wired" as in you are going to connect it with an Ethernet cable to your router? If so I would fine tune my final location where it's easiest to pull a wire and/or where there's power. If power's not readily available you might have to pay a little more for an AP that supports POE (Power Over Ethernet).

If you are using guest ...

Not a bad point. I actually spent extra money on a Ruckus AP. There were multiple reasons but a pleasant perk was it supported "guest". It also supported POE so it made the ceiling mount easier. (It was actually designed for a ceiling/wall mount.)

Some vendors do make "outside" APs. (Myself, I've never had a need to look into them. I would imagine they cost a few bucks more.)

I can't really place it higher because it would degrade reception in the basement bar too much.

I hear you but did you actually try it? You "might" be in for a pleasant surprise (especially if that's an open staircase)?

 

[coxhaus]

So Klueless how do you handle guest in your wireless? Maybe you use a VLAN or captive portal?

I run 2 Cisco WAP581 wireless APs in single point setup and I have a guest VLAN setup so guest wireless is everywhere across both APs.

 

[Klueless]

So Klueless how do you handle guest in your wireless? Maybe you use a VLAN or captive portal?

VLANs? No. And, what's a "captive portal"? (I think I've mentioned before, I'm a simple man -)

Ruckus does the real work. When I set up a SSID they offer me a "guest" button. If I click it Ruckus blocks access to the local LAN (from that SSID). They do it by IP address. They also allow one to permit guest access to certain IPs so that guests can, say, print or stream watch TV.

 

[Trip]

@coxhaus - Pretty sure @Klueless is using Client Isolation on the AP itself and that's it. No VLANs (L2 segmentation), so technically guests could still hit his management interfaces, but for trust-only scenarios it would work.

@bonerking - For coverage of just the patio (as opposed to the entire backyard) I would think another Asus AiMesh-compatible all-in-one would suffice -- inside but close to the patio door. I would do a site survey with your 68U (unplugged from internet and placed at that location). If signal is strong enough on the patio, then an AC66U_B1 ($95 new, $69 Amazon Renewed) would duplicate the coverage (it has equivalent radios).

If it's not enough and you need an AP outside on the patio, you're out of luck with Asus (no outdoor models). I would do something like a TP-Link Omada EAP225-Outdoor ($69), which can be run standalone (or via the Omada controller -- more on that later). Provided you configure with identical SSID(s) and unique channels, it should work well enough with the 68U. If AP spacing and power levels are appropriate for roaming but clients aren't roaming as desired and/or you want more uniform control over the wifi experience in general, then I'd go all-Omada, replacing the 68U's wifi with another EAP. You would disable wifi on the 68U (turning into a wired router only), then add an EAP225 ($60) or EAP245 ($90) right next to it, plus the Omada controller, either on an always-on PC (free) or just buy the OC200 controller appliance ($85).

So, in summary: first try an Asus AiMesh router. If that doesn't work, an outdoor AP (controller/standalone capable). Optional: replace 68U wifi with another AP from the same ecosystem as the outdoor model.

 

[bonerking]

Thanks for the replies, I’ll try to address everything in one post but I’m on mobile right now so multi quoting etc is kinda difficult.

Here’s an improved floor plan. It’s kinda large so I’ll link it instead of posting the image.
https://i.imgur.com/ACAxgbx.png
Router is vertically roughly at the 2nd floor ground level. The stairwell is all wood, no fire safety here, the house is from the late 70s.

I don’t have exact dBm levels but reception is overall strong except the marked areas. I get around 200mbit down on the 5ghz band. In the 1st floor living room / bar it is good enough to stream 1080p video which is okay, but it is noticeably slower than the rest of the house, guessing the concrete wall is the culprit.

I haven’t tried moving the router higher but it is difficult because it doesn’t wall mount and there’s a shelf where it currently is.

2nd floor patio I can’t steam music or do voice over WiFi which is not okay.

I can get power and Ethernet cable anywhere, but it does add to the overall cost since outlets and cable are expensive. And I think PoE would look a lot cleaner than having a power adapter dangling from the ceiling?

I don’t use guest WiFi. A mesh setup is not out of the question but I think I might not need it? If I went that route I would disable the wireless on the asus router and would prefer some kind of mesh which could run in AP mode.

I’m considering the TP-link omada lineup, they have outdoor and ceiling mount APs. ASUS doesn’t seem to have any sleek looking APs or routers, would like to avoid black boxes if possible. I have the white AC68U which barely passes wife standards.

 

[bonerking]

So, in summary: first try an Asus AiMesh router. If that doesn't work, an outdoor AP (controller/standalone capable). Optional: replace 68U wifi with another AP from the same ecosystem as the outdoor model.

Guess I crossposted. I think only the Lyra series look good enough for living room mounting, would this work well with the 68U?

Edit: I don’t think I really need fast/seamless roaming

 

[Klueless]

... technically guests could still hit his management interfaces, but for trust-only scenarios it would work

It's been awhile but I "thought", even though you can touch the router for DHCP, DNS, etc., that Ruckus blocked ports 8080 / whatever to prevent that kind of stuff? Also doesn't the Asus allow you to block wireless admin access?

(That said the OP doesn't need guest access anywho.)

 

[Trip]

@bonerking - If you're planning on ceiling-mounted APs then yes, power and data over a single cable is by far the best way to do it (really the only way, as AC adapters in locations like that aren't really feasible, nor all that desirable, plus a complete eye sore if the power core has to be surface-run). For that you'll need a PoE-capable AP and unfortunately no consumer mesh product that I'm aware of offers PoE, Lyra included. As far as mesh vs. hard-wired APs, the latter is much more desirable, as wired backhaul is always going to be more reliable, higher-throughput and lower latency. That said, if you're thinking an all-wireless mesh, I wouldn't look to AiMesh anyways, but rather a product purpose-built for the job; namely Eero or Eero Pro.

@Klueless - The Ruckus AP itself will block HTTP/HTTPS/SSH access by guests, yes, but I'm not sure if it can also be made to firewall those ports on upstream guest traffic as well, nor if that approach is really best-practice in most circumstances. Anywho, an easy way to find out is to jump on your guest network SSID and see if you can hit your router or managed switch(es) (if you have any) on any of their standard management ports. Regarding a wifi router's ability to deny login to a wireless client, that may indeed be possible for guest clients connected to the router's own radios, but if the guest client is connected to a separate, non-integrated AP (ie. no AiMesh), then as far as the router is concerned it's a wired connection and may likely permit access. You'd need something like AiMesh to ensure denial of access regardless of which wireless node the guest is connected to. But as you said, the OP doesn't really require guest access, so none of this applies; just want to clarify for your sake.

 

[Klueless]

So we are not talking about a huge house. You might consider trying out "low tech" like a simple dual band WiFi "Extender" that simply plugs into a wall outlet. I've an old Netgear 6150 that works well (they've now newer/better models).

Many will warn you of the "halving effect" of "repeaters". Valid point but not always a problem. But "repeaters" are a layer 1 device and you can configure an "Extender" to be a layer 2 device (thus eliminating the "halving" but introducing 2.4 GHz as a possible "pinch point"). Netgear's "Fastlane" allows you to do this. Linksys offers similar with "Cross Connect" and ... it's pretty much automatic and dynamic. They look like this:​

 

[Klueless]

Regarding a wifi router's ability to deny login to a wireless client, that may indeed be possible for guest clients connected to the router's own radios, but if the guest client is connected to a separate, non-integrated AP (ie. no AiMesh), then as far as the router is concerned it's a wired connection and may likely permit access.

Yes, I do believe you are correct. I hadn't thought it through.

... an easy way to find out is to jump on your guest network SSID and see if you can hit your router or managed switch(es) (if you have any) on any of their standard management ports.

So, I tried it out just to make sure. I could not access my router from my Ruckus guest SSID. Thanks for keeping me honest. You're fun to have around!

 

[Klueless]

I have the white AC68U which barely passes wife standards.

I might've married your wife's sister? My wife "made" me keep my router out of sight, in the corner, on the floor, behind the TV stand. I replaced it with an Asus Blue Cave. She found that acceptable (no space alien horns) so now it's out of the corner and up on a shelf. With that simple change I now have decent coverage throughout the house.

 

[bonerking]

So we are not talking about a huge house. You might consider trying out "low tech" like a simple dual band WiFi "Extender" that simply plugs into a wall outlet. I've an old Netgear 6150 that works well (they've now newer/better models).

This certainly looks quick and inexpensive to get going. I kinda dismissed this because of overall poor user reviews for these solutions, but user error is probably very common. If I place this in the upstairs living room I guess devices in this area will associate with this AP. I would need enough bandwidth to run at least three full HD video streams simultaneously, one of them real-time (unbuffered) with low latency. Think one of those could handle this? I don't want to go separate SSIDs, I think this would be too much for the wife and kids to handle.

I might've married your wife's sister? My wife "made" me keep my router out of sight, in the corner, on the floor, behind the TV stand. I replaced it with an Asus Blue Cave. She found that acceptable (no space alien horns) so now it's out of the corner and up on a shelf. With that simple change I now have decent coverage throughout the house.

View attachment 23024​

Maybe you did I don't know why, but somehow anything is acceptable as long as it looks modern and is neutral bright colored. I have white floorstanding speakers in the upstairs living room..
The blue cave looks great, certainly a welcome change from the ultra gamer aesthetic they've been going for on their top end models. I really enjoy the reliability and simplicity of the OpenVPN server and the Diversion adblock script on the ASUS router, ad-free mobile browsing is awesome.

 

[Klueless]

If I place this in the upstairs living room I guess devices in this area will associate with this AP. I would need enough bandwidth to run at least three full HD video streams simultaneously, one of them real-time (unbuffered) with low latency. Think one of those could handle this?

Good point!

I don't want to go separate SSIDs, I think this would be too much for the wife and kids to handle.

And ... you blew away my answer : -) Coupla thoughts;

• Depending on luck of the draw it might well support that many HD streams, we're only talking about 20 Mbps?
• Nail "fixed devices", e.g., smart TVs, desktops, to your router's SSIDs
• I've a windows laptop with a similar issue at work. I set it to remember (auto-reconnect) to my main SSID. Then I simply connect to others as needed but they "forget" (no to auto-reconnect). I don't know if iPhones, Androids, etc. do similar (and I'm too lazy to look right now : -) Then all they have to do is remember to connect to "patio" when they go out to the "patio". Nah, maybe not. They'd still have to connect to "house" when they went back inside but, at least, they wouldn't inadvertently flip back to "extender".
• Possibly set the Extender's back-haul to 5 GHz and serve up clients on the 2.4 GHz. I've been noticing that my clients tend to go with a "good" (e.g., your 68U) 5 GHz connection over an "excellent" (the range extender) 2.4 GHz connection? They "seem" to try to pick an optimal balance between signal level and bit rate. No, I can not prove that.
• I "think" there are also tri-band "Extenders"? With a dedicated 5 GHz back-haul you should have more than enough bandwidth even if all of your clients were silly enough to connect to the extender rather than the router.
• If all else should fail these devices can be reconfigured as wired APs.

 

[bonerking]

Good point!

And you blew away my answer : -) Coupla thoughts;

• Depending on luck of the draw it might well support that many HD streams, we're only talking about 20 Mbps?
• Nail "fixed devices", e.g., smart TVs, desktops, to your router's SSIDs
• I've a windows laptop with a similar issue at work. I set it to remember (auto-reconnect) to my main SSID. Then I simply connect to others as needed but they "forget" (no to auto-reconnect). I don't know if iPhones, Androids, etc. do similar (and I'm too lazy to look right now : -) Then all they have to do is remember to connect to "patio" when they go out to the "patio". Nah, maybe not. They'd still have to connect to "house" when they went back inside but, at least, they wouldn't inadvertently flip back to "extender".
• Possibly set the Extender's back-haul to 5 GHz and serve up clients on the 2.4 GHz. I've been noticing that my clients tend to go with a "good" (e.g., your 68U) 5 GHz connection over an "excellent" (the range extender) 2.4 GHz connection? They "seem" to try to pick an optimal balance between signal level and bit rate. No, I can not prove that.
• I "think" there are also tri-band "Extenders"? With a dedicated 5 GHz back-haul you should have more than enough bandwidth even if all of your clients were silly enough to connect to the extender rather than the router.
• If all else should fail these devices can be reconfigured as wired APs.

The more I'm thinking about this the more I realize it doesn't really hurt to try. I'll just buy somewhere with a liberal return policy and if it doesn't work I'll just get my money back. I think having a separate SSID would be an acceptable drawback considering the massive price difference. Really I'm just trying to get reliable music streaming on my patio and suddenly I'm looking at hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of access point and mesh systems which I probably don't need if an inexpensive extender can do the job.

Do you have any particular recommended products, is it best to stay with Netgear or Linksys? I'm not too well educated on the difference between layer 1 and 2, despite having some classes on this in uni a decade ago.

 

[Klueless]

... doesn't really hurt to try ... liberal return policy

While this gentleman's application is different he is leaning towards the newer Netgear EX6400 and has been poking at TP-Link. I like my 6150, it's also the only one I've actually used (save for the ancient single-band "repeaters"), but, I do believe, it's SU-MIMO (single stream), which, is fine for me. As you move up, e.g., the EX6400, EX7300, you start seeing MU-MIMO (multi-stream).

So, no, I don't really have a recommendation per se but I do like the idea of the client using a different radio than the router. Think latency, lag and performance. Netgear w/ "Fastlane", I like that I can "control" the radio assignment. Linksys with "Cross Connect", I like that it's "automatic" (but I worry about giving up control : -)

Location, Location, location. Once it's configured, if you're not "quite" liking it, you can simply plug it into the next wall outlet down.

... layer 1 and 2, despite having some classes on this in uni a decade ago

Ha. Me too. It's gotten foggy with age.

• Repeater, layer one, all traffic flows between segments.
• Bridge, layer two, some traffic isolation between segments.
• Router, layer three, more traffic isolation between segments.

Best of Luck! Looking forward to hearing how you make out.