Is Powerline Networking Dead?
- Thread starter thiggins
- Start date
Tim,
I suspect it is because houses here in many cases are easier to just refit or have cat5 installed from the beginning, while in Europe, many things are a couple hundred years old, before copper wire came in a twisted pair...
Something that always deterred me from powerline was also that for the cost of two connectors, I could pretty much go wireless. If I'm going to move more data than wireless supports, I can just drop a cord on the floor for an hour. The wife only gets mad if it's still there the next morning.
Tam
I suspect it is because houses here in many cases are easier to just refit or have cat5 installed from the beginning, while in Europe, many things are a couple hundred years old, before copper wire came in a twisted pair...
Something that always deterred me from powerline was also that for the cost of two connectors, I could pretty much go wireless. If I'm going to move more data than wireless supports, I can just drop a cord on the floor for an hour. The wife only gets mad if it's still there the next morning.
Tam
The main national TelCo here in the UK is giving away powerline units with their IPTV offering, making the whole package more of a self-install option for most home users. Powerline is seen as a more preferable option to wifi for several reasons, security and bandwidth being two.
A typical UK tripple play home installation could start with the phone line socket and ADSL router in the hallway, a laptop upstairs in a kids bedroom, the main PC in the home office and the main TV in the lounge. The ADSL router having wi-fi and also acting as a base station for hybrid GSM/wifi mobile phones which swap to wifi (ADSL backhaul) in the house, and also as a DECT base station for SIP/POTS handsets.
The TelCo has a lot going on in a lots rooms in the home so it can work out a lot cheeper to send out a self install kit and use powerline to alleviate the need to run cables in most cases. There will always be times when there is no choice but to send out a tech guy.
New high end homes in the UK are starting to get pre-wired with CAT5e but in most cases the builders don't terminate the cables, and the home owners don't know what to do with it, and as the ISP's don't as a rule send out Tech's unless things go wrong... it doesn't get used.
A typical UK tripple play home installation could start with the phone line socket and ADSL router in the hallway, a laptop upstairs in a kids bedroom, the main PC in the home office and the main TV in the lounge. The ADSL router having wi-fi and also acting as a base station for hybrid GSM/wifi mobile phones which swap to wifi (ADSL backhaul) in the house, and also as a DECT base station for SIP/POTS handsets.
The TelCo has a lot going on in a lots rooms in the home so it can work out a lot cheeper to send out a self install kit and use powerline to alleviate the need to run cables in most cases. There will always be times when there is no choice but to send out a tech guy.
New high end homes in the UK are starting to get pre-wired with CAT5e but in most cases the builders don't terminate the cables, and the home owners don't know what to do with it, and as the ISP's don't as a rule send out Tech's unless things go wrong... it doesn't get used.
My impression is that IPTV is one of the forces behind powerline in Europe.
As you say, Foggy, a much higher chance of success for a service provider to use for self-install than Wi-Fi!
As you say, Foggy, a much higher chance of success for a service provider to use for self-install than Wi-Fi!
Sounds like the typical situation where Electricians can pull the cable, but they have to bring in a "data" contractor to do the termination. If only the Electricians knew how simple it is to put in push-down CAT5 jacks!
Tim,
before copper wire came in a twisted pair...
Tam
UK: We are still struggling with the concept of "one pair per house", let a lone copper!!!
thiggins said:
This is true. Before the IPTV was introduced in Belgium, almost nobody knew about powerline adapters.
No not at all. The IPTV providers made the correct choice with powerline instead of WiFi IMHO. It's a lot easier to install, and it (almost) always works without a hitch. The connection is more stable and has more bandwidth. The only downside, it not being wireless, is not an issue at all with regards to IPTV, quite the contrary actually.thiggins said:
There are just too many external factors that can go wrong with WiFi. (the neighbour installing his own more powerful WiFi router on the same channel is just one example).
For a fixed desktop computer, I would prefer powerline adapters anyday.
Yes actually! For the first time, I have a single router that can cover my house. I live in a house with 13 rooms (including everything but the hallways) that's two stories tall. My TrendNet wireless router sits on the second floor, on the far side of the house (In my "computer" room. On the exact opposit side of the house, down stairs, a computer sits with a very cheap wireless-G card showing "Good (4/5) Signal".
My laptop one or two rooms away (About as far as I get with it) runs at 130MB/s (Readout, not actual), and I have walked out of my house moving files accross the wireless connection (Pushy people in a hurry
).As for security, my wireless router uses WPA2, as well as dumps into the DMZ of my ASA. The only way to access my network using WiFi is by connecting via VPN from the DMZ, doesn't get much more secure than that. This method isn't as price-oriented, however..
I love my wireless though, just being able to laze around on the Couch on my /only/ day off really makes it worth it!
My perception the last time I considered using Powerline (several years ago) was that it was too complicated and expensive to get the network to all of the devices I wanted to be able to use in my home.
At that time, for example, my Tivos didn't have ethernet ports (the newer models do), so that using powerline would require also adding an ethernet to usb bridge.
It looked like a good solution for networking multiple computers in the home (because these already have ethernet adapters), but that may be a less common scenario.
As odd as it may seem, I also think people are afraid of plugging anything other than an electrical plug into an electrical socket. (Early childhood training?)
At that time, for example, my Tivos didn't have ethernet ports (the newer models do), so that using powerline would require also adding an ethernet to usb bridge.
It looked like a good solution for networking multiple computers in the home (because these already have ethernet adapters), but that may be a less common scenario.
As odd as it may seem, I also think people are afraid of plugging anything other than an electrical plug into an electrical socket. (Early childhood training?)
scotty
Senior Member
"Is powerline networking dead?"
Geez, never knew it was alive. I can't say as I can speak for Europe, but here in NA I would consider powerline pretty non-existent. I've looked into implementing it for a few people, but it's always been too expensive, complicated, or simply not attractive compared to a wireless solution - or just running some cable.
There's very little I find appealing about PL networking. I find it hard to recommend in virtually any case.
I suppose as some say perhaps there are some applications that might benefit, but IPTV it still a ways off from practical mass adoption here in North America.
With wireless becoming better and cheape every few years, and even wired applications becoming more prevalent (seeing cat5 in the home isn't uncommon anymore), I think PL will continue to be something that's largely in the sidelines.
Geez, never knew it was alive. I can't say as I can speak for Europe, but here in NA I would consider powerline pretty non-existent. I've looked into implementing it for a few people, but it's always been too expensive, complicated, or simply not attractive compared to a wireless solution - or just running some cable.
There's very little I find appealing about PL networking. I find it hard to recommend in virtually any case.
I suppose as some say perhaps there are some applications that might benefit, but IPTV it still a ways off from practical mass adoption here in North America.
With wireless becoming better and cheape every few years, and even wired applications becoming more prevalent (seeing cat5 in the home isn't uncommon anymore), I think PL will continue to be something that's largely in the sidelines.
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My place is pretty small, so I don't have distance issues. As for bandwidth, .11g gives me enough to surf, stream files from my server, and do most everything I need to. When I really need bandwidth, like copying gigs to/from the laptop, I plug in a cord for a few, get it done, and go on my merry way.
Tam
YeOldeStonecat
Very Senior Member
Stability of products?
I tried a trio of the Linksys devices last fall.
When I had a pair of them....it seemed to work great. 3x story house...at that time the wireless unit was down on the first floor. Browsing 'n such was OK, but online gaming was irregular. Several different iterations of wireless also...including flashing with DD-WRT and cranking up the output power a bit to 75 or so.
So I tried a pair of the Linksys plk200 or something like that...
At first...wow..as snappy and fast as copper. Online gaming..latency as solid as it was on the CAT6. But say...once every two weeks....nada...nothing..had to power cycle them.
I then added a 3rd unit..and the need to power cycle them increased to several times a week.
And failure to want to work with more than 1x device connected to them...I had tried uplinking the upstairs one to a 5 port switch..and have several devices plugged into the switch. At that time..nothing in the documentation about saying if it worked or not with more than 1x device per adapter.
I tried a trio of the Linksys devices last fall.
When I had a pair of them....it seemed to work great. 3x story house...at that time the wireless unit was down on the first floor. Browsing 'n such was OK, but online gaming was irregular. Several different iterations of wireless also...including flashing with DD-WRT and cranking up the output power a bit to 75 or so.
So I tried a pair of the Linksys plk200 or something like that...
At first...wow..as snappy and fast as copper. Online gaming..latency as solid as it was on the CAT6. But say...once every two weeks....nada...nothing..had to power cycle them.
I then added a 3rd unit..and the need to power cycle them increased to several times a week.
And failure to want to work with more than 1x device connected to them...I had tried uplinking the upstairs one to a 5 port switch..and have several devices plugged into the switch. At that time..nothing in the documentation about saying if it worked or not with more than 1x device per adapter.
Sorry to say, YeOldeStoneCat, but your experience is too common. The powerline guys have made a mess of the industry. Talk about being your own worst enemy!
The UPA and HomePlug guys can't make peace, so there are two competing systems that don't interoperate and barely coexist without stomping on the other's signals.
And then HomePlug AV won't even interoperate with HomePlug 1.1 and 1.1+Turbo!
So there is a huge confusion factor, too.
Despite all that, it can be a good alternative to banging your head against a wall trying to get wireless to reach a tough spot in a house. Will be interesting, though, to see whether the coax/MoCA adapters that are finally starting to come out make any better headway than powerline.
The UPA and HomePlug guys can't make peace, so there are two competing systems that don't interoperate and barely coexist without stomping on the other's signals.
And then HomePlug AV won't even interoperate with HomePlug 1.1 and 1.1+Turbo!
So there is a huge confusion factor, too.
Despite all that, it can be a good alternative to banging your head against a wall trying to get wireless to reach a tough spot in a house. Will be interesting, though, to see whether the coax/MoCA adapters that are finally starting to come out make any better headway than powerline.
YeOldeStonecat
Very Senior Member
It would be. I mean..there sure is a need for something to span your network to the other end of the house/several floors up/other end of the warehouse/etc. Sure..if it's that important...run ethernet. But sometimes...it's just not practical to run ethernet.
Fan of ethernet over power
I suspect the issue has to do more with the typical U.S. construction (wood framing and sheet rock) which facilitates having good wifi coverage. I've lived in three story houses in the U.S. where two wifi access points on the middle floor covered the whole house.
On two occasions overseas, I've needed at least six wifi access points (two per floor) to cover a similarly sized house. In one case I went through the cost of running CAT5 to all locations. While that was the higher performance way to go, on my most recent overseas stint I am using the Devolo dLAN 200 and very happy with its operating characteristics.
I have moved to using Apple wifi related products including TimeCapsule, Airport Extreme, and Airport Express. With the advent of 802.11n as well as streaming music and video to several audio systems throughout my home, I now maintain three networks in my home using the Devolo dLAN 200's as the backbone. I now have nine access points providing a separate 802.11n at 5ghz and 802.11b,g at 2.4ghz, using seven Devolo boxes as an ethernet backbone. I have measured real work load throughput consistently well in excess of 100 Mbps for distributing data, video and music from a central 3TB file server.
I have not had any of the reliability problems mentioned by another poster. All disruptions have been due to unplugging a Devolo box from the wall socket and were resolved simply by plugging it back into the socket. The only quirk I found is that when adding a new Devolo device, it's safer to setup all the devices over again. This means going around the house unplugging them and then putting them in the same power strip for initial network setup.
If wifi is not getting you the coverage you want, I would strongly recommend trying ethernet over power.
I suspect the issue has to do more with the typical U.S. construction (wood framing and sheet rock) which facilitates having good wifi coverage. I've lived in three story houses in the U.S. where two wifi access points on the middle floor covered the whole house.
On two occasions overseas, I've needed at least six wifi access points (two per floor) to cover a similarly sized house. In one case I went through the cost of running CAT5 to all locations. While that was the higher performance way to go, on my most recent overseas stint I am using the Devolo dLAN 200 and very happy with its operating characteristics.
I have moved to using Apple wifi related products including TimeCapsule, Airport Extreme, and Airport Express. With the advent of 802.11n as well as streaming music and video to several audio systems throughout my home, I now maintain three networks in my home using the Devolo dLAN 200's as the backbone. I now have nine access points providing a separate 802.11n at 5ghz and 802.11b,g at 2.4ghz, using seven Devolo boxes as an ethernet backbone. I have measured real work load throughput consistently well in excess of 100 Mbps for distributing data, video and music from a central 3TB file server.
I have not had any of the reliability problems mentioned by another poster. All disruptions have been due to unplugging a Devolo box from the wall socket and were resolved simply by plugging it back into the socket. The only quirk I found is that when adding a new Devolo device, it's safer to setup all the devices over again. This means going around the house unplugging them and then putting them in the same power strip for initial network setup.
If wifi is not getting you the coverage you want, I would strongly recommend trying ethernet over power.
I've tried a few powerline products from most of the major vendors. I've found that they do about 15megabit peak throughput at the best of times, no matter what the package says. And if someone turns on a vacuum or a microwave, or even worse, the laundry, your connection goes completely down. Much more happy experience with MoCA.
Powerline vs Wifi vs Cat6
My experience of this is a bit different again. I started out using 802.g in this 4 story old house but connections were not stable plus the max rates seemed to be no better than 20mbps. It turned out also that the fire station up the road would also play hell with the æther twice a day.
Next up was a set of Devolo 200mbps that gave no better than 15% (30mbps), but also of varied quality of connection. I had not heard of the need to cycle them, but the connectivity definitely came and went. Sometimes being impossible to connect. I had blamed it on the crap mains box that the previous owner put in (a lot of so-called renewal work on this house turned out to be crap) but maybe not so. I also have a problem with an X10 light system that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.
So I put in Cat6 between 3 of the floors. Now it all works well with a min of 350mbps all the time. Next challenge is to get this up to 700mbps+ by going to PCIe NICs.
My experience of this is a bit different again. I started out using 802.g in this 4 story old house but connections were not stable plus the max rates seemed to be no better than 20mbps. It turned out also that the fire station up the road would also play hell with the æther twice a day.
Next up was a set of Devolo 200mbps that gave no better than 15% (30mbps), but also of varied quality of connection. I had not heard of the need to cycle them, but the connectivity definitely came and went. Sometimes being impossible to connect. I had blamed it on the crap mains box that the previous owner put in (a lot of so-called renewal work on this house turned out to be crap) but maybe not so. I also have a problem with an X10 light system that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.
So I put in Cat6 between 3 of the floors. Now it all works well with a min of 350mbps all the time. Next challenge is to get this up to 700mbps+ by going to PCIe NICs.
raleighthings
Occasional Visitor
Taking some of this from memory.
In non high rise US, most houses have 1 power company transformer per house or two. In the UK the ratio is 1 transformer per many houses. Plus they run 230v to the jacks where we mostly run 120v. Which means in some ways there's less noise on the UK lines running around a house.
Then add to that that in many area of Europe they have fewer OLD things like freezers, central AC, electric dryers, etc... (In general.) These things create electrical noise.
I don't know about Europe but in the US most houses have power split into 2 "halves". So depending on where you want to use equipment you might have to put a bridge into the circuit panel to join the two halves.
So just as a starting point power Europe's houses tends to be cleaner from a Powerline networking point of view due to the last 100 years of history.
In non high rise US, most houses have 1 power company transformer per house or two. In the UK the ratio is 1 transformer per many houses. Plus they run 230v to the jacks where we mostly run 120v. Which means in some ways there's less noise on the UK lines running around a house.
Then add to that that in many area of Europe they have fewer OLD things like freezers, central AC, electric dryers, etc... (In general.) These things create electrical noise.
I don't know about Europe but in the US most houses have power split into 2 "halves". So depending on where you want to use equipment you might have to put a bridge into the circuit panel to join the two halves.
So just as a starting point power Europe's houses tends to be cleaner from a Powerline networking point of view due to the last 100 years of history.
Yes, US residential power service is usually 220 split into two 110V phases. Earlier power line products did need the "bridge". But current generation products are able to pick up the signal they need from EMF phase to phase coupling.
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