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Is the stock Netgear R7800 QoS really this bad?

Discussion in 'NETGEAR AC Wireless' started by Jee, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Jee

    Jee New Around Here

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    One of the main reasons I chose to buy this router was because of Netgear's claim of Dynamic QoS prioritizing game traffic over other types of traffic. But I'm experiencing large ping spikes when someone else watches Netflix or anything else really. Having the attached devices page open while gaming shows that my game traffic is getting picked up as BitTorrent.... So that's probably why I'm having this problem.

    Can this be fixed? The 2017 QoS database seems really outdated and neglected by Netgear but the game I was testing is from 2016 (Overwatch) so that shouldn't be the problem. Is this fixed in Voxel's firmware?

    When I run a speed test that traffic is also classified as BitTorrent and Bufferbloat is really bad even with dynamic QoS enabled using the tested result and after lowering the numbers to 85%. I don't really care about bufferbloat in other traffic though, I just don't want ping spikes in games.



    Netgear R7800 x4s
    Firmware = V1.0.2.62
    QoS database = October 23, 2017 (v4.1023.gb2747cb)
    System used = wired windows PC
    Cable ISP plan is 150Mbps down / 5Mbps up
     
  2. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    Try setting up device priorities rather than leaving that aspect default. Doing that I’ve not had much of an issue. I usually set my computer high, almost most everything else to normal and some media devices to low, maybe also set mobile devices to low as well. With 150 Mbps even when set to low I doubt you’d have much of an issue for the other people / devices. Key here is that the upload bandwidth which is the bottleneck will be reserved more for you this way so try that.


    Unfortunately if that still doesn’t help then OpenWRT maybe your alternative. Best set and forget QoS I’ve used is actually SQM Piece of Cake in OpenWRT. If you are willing try OpenWRT, hnyman constantly updates his OpenWRT builds (almost weekly).

    For stock firmwares though Broadcom iQOS (R8500, R8000, etc) is surprisingly actually excellent now, much better than Qualcomm’s Streamboost in the R7800.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    rk8531 and Jee like this.
  3. Jee

    Jee New Around Here

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    Yes I tried setting the other devices to medium while setting my PC to highest but it didn't seem to help. I also tried setting the PC as a gaming console but that didn't seem to change anything. Game traffic getting classified as bittorent which is probably the lowest priority is just really bad. I found this old thread showing the same problem so I guess it's nothing new: https://community.netgear.com/t5/DS...by-device-and-application-Issues/td-p/1204316

    About Openwrt, I have an older router running it but the CPU couldn't handle applying cake at higher speeds. Do you know what speeds the R7800 is capable of using SQM cake?

    About the Broadcom iQOS devices, does that also include Costco's R7960P ? Pretty sure I saw one of those today in store. I forget how much it was but it's probably a lot more than the $140 R7800 I just got from Amazon.... but if the QoS actually works I guess I should consider it.

    Thanks.
     
  4. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    Yeah the Costco router is effectively just a rebadged R8000P. Pretty sure with a board ID modification via telnet or header changes you probably could flash R8000P firmware.

    The R7800 is pretty powerful it’s CPU allows it to do ~700+ Mbps even without hardware NAT acceleration which its Broadcom peers could not do. So even with Cake in OpenWRT (specifically the lighter “Piece of Cake” SQM QoS it should still easily max out your connection.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  5. Jee

    Jee New Around Here

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    Is the QoS on the R7960P the exact same Broadcom QoS that's included with the Asus routers like the AC86u or is this something newer and improved?

    After some reading it seems like some people were having trouble using the TFTP recovery to get back to the stock firmware on their R7800. How common is this problem? I'm interested in trying dd-wrt or openwrt but I have only had this router for a couple days so I don't want to get stuck on a third party firmware and not be able to send it back if I wasn't happy with the results.

    Thanks again for the advice.
     
  6. XheliPilot

    XheliPilot Occasional Visitor

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    "I don't really care about bufferbloat in other traffic though, I just don't want ping spikes in games."

    Hummm
    https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/Introduction/

    I typically have 10-15 devices connected, streaming netfix, xboxs ETC. I have Never have problems like i read on these types of forums?? I'm not a super user by any means but if it ain't broke then don't fix it!

    I got tired of constantly tweaking my router settings & spending more time on these forums than gaming so i got an IQ router set it and forget it. I use my R7800 with Voxels FW.64 as an AP now...

    I just wanted a smooth connection without all the fuss..

    Sorry for rambling on just thought it was a good article about bufferbloat & how it effects latency.
     
  7. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    Getting back to stock is pretty easy, never had a failure in all my tests.

    As for QoS on the Broadcom models I believe the updates come from Broadcom directly, even for Asus I believe, though they have more granular controls on Asus routers. I’m sure an Asus owner can give more clarity on that.
     
    rk8531 likes this.
  8. rk8531

    rk8531 Regular Contributor

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    It's bad that's it. I trashed my R7800 after 6 months of use just because the QOS was pathetic and there was no built in VPN client integration. Now, I am using Asus RT 86U and it's actually working better than XR500 which I borrowed from a friend just prior to purchasing RT86U.

    Edit: Asus RT86U costs $321 in India whereas Netgear XR500 costs $286. Still I bought RT86U because it's a much better router than XR500 which is certainly better than R7800 (especially the Merlin Firmware, built in VPN, much better QOS, Traffic monitor and upcoming built in DOT support).
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  9. microchip

    microchip Very Senior Member

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    Last 2-3 firmware releases have known ping spikes and NG still needs to fix it. Try the .52 firmware version
     
  10. e38BimmerFN

    e38BimmerFN Very Senior Member

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    What is the Mfr and model# of the ISP modem the NG router is connected too?

    Check with pingplotter for pings and issues seen at the modem level then at the router level first. Test with a wired PC...

     
  11. Jee

    Jee New Around Here

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    I own the modem, MB8600. Bufferbloat is a solid F without any form of QoS.

    I went to Costco today and grabbed the R7960P for a solid $200 oof. I won't have time to test game traffic today but bufferbloat is already vastly better than what was showing up on the R7800. One of these routers will get returned within the next month now I just have to test and decide which one to keep.
     
  12. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    Yeah as I said Broadcom’s iQOS is much better these days. Hopefully gaming goes better as well.
     
  13. RMinNJ

    RMinNJ Regular Contributor

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    I agree...I'm running Voxels firmware on my 7800 and I think he said his QoS is bit more updated but still shows 2017..

    But my bufferblot score is terrible. Think I got it up to a D limiting my bandwidth..
     
  14. kc6108

    kc6108 Regular Contributor

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    Qualcomm's Dynamic QoS (StreamBoost) engine was the bee's knees a few years ago. However; from what I can tell, Qualcomm has lost interest in enhancing it any further. The last change I saw to the code was back in early 2017. Qualcomm hasn't really even mentioned StreamBoost in years.

    Broadcom's BroadStream Intelligent Quality of Service (iQoS), OTOH and IMHO, has now far surpassed StreamBoost. It has also been GROWING in popularity over the last few years as opposed to StreamBoost (except for the fanboys that keep saying how great it is).

    The one thing StreamBoost has always had on iQoS is that it seems to always be powered by offload/co-processors. This is of course a moot point now... iQoS is so much better... we are now comparing apples to oranges.

    IME, the R9000 now has the best QoS engine (powered by Trend Micro). TM has been constantly enhancing it's QoS main engine and providing Netgear with their latest and greatest database signature/definition/etc files.

    Case in point, my R9000 just installed a new definition update for QoS:

    Version: netgear-detection-db-v1.56
    Release Date: Apr 28 2019

    You can't get any more update than that...

    Here are some of the updates Netgear has been able to provide us over the past year (according to my notes, there may have been more):

    netgear-detection-db-v1.2 - 3/30/18 (appx date)
    netgear-detection-db-v1.3 - 3/30/18 (appx date)
    netgear-detection-db-v1.34 - 7/19/18
    netgear-detection-db-v1.42 - 9/20/18
    netgear-detection-db-v1.46 - 11/20/18
    netgear-detection-db-v1.50 - 1/2/19
    netgear-detection-db-v1.52 - 3/13/19
    netgear-detection-db-v1.56 - 4/28/19
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  15. kc6108

    kc6108 Regular Contributor

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    The last set of definition/signature files I got for iQoS (on my R8500) was:

    netgear-detection-db-v1.212
    netgear-detection-module-0027

    both dated: 6/27/18
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  16. kc6108

    kc6108 Regular Contributor

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    My ISP is Cable ONE, and I'm on their GigaONE asymmetrical gigabit plan (1000/50). Although they haven't upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 (they JUST finished upgrading their infrastructure in my area to support gigabit over DOCSIS 3.0), they have implemented QoS which provides me with consistent A+ bufferbloat scores.

    Here is a small write-up I did on why my scores are so great:

    http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=66864

    I mention all this for a few reasons:

    1. I no longer need to have QoS turned on in my router :D
    2. With QoS turned on, my R8500 (with its dual-core CPU and three co-processors) can handle 500 Mbps speeds all day long without any slowdowns. If your Internet speeds are greater than 600 Mbps than I suggest you turn QoS off.
    3. With QoS turned on, my R9000 (with its quad-core CPU) can easily handle 600 Mbps without any slowdowns. Again, anymore than this and I suggest you turn QoS off.

    The bad part about turning off QoS in scenarios 2 & 3 above... if you don't have symmetrical Internet you're going to suffer from Bufferbloat on the upload side. That's why I'm so impressed with Cable ONE's approach to QoS (read my write-up for the details).
     
  17. RMinNJ

    RMinNJ Regular Contributor

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    Thanks..sounds i brought the wrong modem..sb8200.. But of course my isp is still docsis 3.0... Fiber (where i will need their router), and 3.1 are supposively coming.

    From,what you wrote it requires atrnetiin to,detail and firmware,pushed to the modem. My,isp does not have such attention to,detail..their only approved modems are 8 channel or a 24 channel puma6..
    I doubt they could,get aqm right.

    I think voxel updated some,of the qos stuff but qos date is left the the same. That would,be the biggest improvement I,think,to the 7800...to,give it real qos .
     
  18. Mordred

    Mordred Regular Contributor

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    Best qos, I have ever seen is on r7800 kong openwrt build with cake sqm, forget about qos,streamboost and everything else. Voxel as well as stock both gave me bad results.
     
  19. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    If you really want OpenWRT make sure to use the lighter “Piece of Cake” not the full fledged layered “Cake” as that requires tagging to create a 3 bin prioritization and be effective.

    Hnyman’s builds:
    https://forum.openwrt.org/t/build-for-netgear-r7800/316

    Been using his builds for 2 years. A lot of feedback from his R7800 exploration thread goes into improving the router in terms of upcoming OpenWRT bug fixes and performance improvements.

    R7800 Exploration Thread:
    https://forum.openwrt.org/t/netgear-r7800-exploration-ipq8065-qca9984/285

    Good to see Kong also making builds for this great unit:
    http://www.desipro.de/openwrt/
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    Murtaza12 and kamoj like this.
  20. Mordred

    Mordred Regular Contributor

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    But Hnyman’s builds also have broken qos, the results on http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/ is really bad, there is a huge difference between kong and hnyman build.