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MoCA 2.0 Bonded reality check

Discussion in 'MoCA, HomePlug, HPNA' started by klatox, Aug 19, 2017.

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  1. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Hello SNB,

    I'm having a dilemma with my MoCA 2.0 network and I'm looking for a bit of guidance.

    The summary is that I am only getting MoCA 1.1 speed on my network. I have MoCA 2.0 Bonded adapters (Actiontec), so I believe there is a problem somewhere in my system. My hypothesis right now is that the coax amplifier that I have installed is blocking signals above 1150Mhz, thereby preventing bonded 2.0 speeds. I'm not sure if this amplifier allows my MoCA adapters to talk to each other at 2.0 speeds because they will not sustain above 1150Mhz.

    Today I am going to attempt install a MoCA 2.0 rated splitter at the passive output on the amplifier, and then attached essentially both MoCA units to it. I'm hoping that this splitter will enable the two MoCA adapters to talk to each other directly at MoCA 2.0 frequencies, and then feeding back into the passive input and still allowing my X1 DVR etc to function.

    Do you guys think this will work? Will installing that splitter enable direct communication between 2 coax inputs, or do splitters not work like that?


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  2. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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  3. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Will do. I didn't get around to it yesterday but I probably will today.
     
  4. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Looks like I had some errors in my diagram. I started unplugging coax from my amp to determine what was what, and discovered that when I unplugged the passive cable, both MoCA units as well as my X1 DVR and X1 Companion box both got disabled. Aha. So I went up on the roof and there it was, a 1-1000Mhz 3-way splitter connecting the whole thing. My plan now is to replace that splitter with a new MoCA 2.0 rated 3-way splitter.

    Here's an updated diagram.

    Untitled Diagram-2.png
     
  5. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Ok, so that didn't work. I'm still running at MoCA 1.1 speeds. Even if I force the adapters to the appropriate frequencies, they either just revert back to 1150MHz or the adapter freezes and I have to reset them to get back to the config page. Both splitters are rated for the appropriate frequencies. I also tried moving the main coax line from the passive leg to one of the non-passive legs, but that didn't change anything.

    I'm wondering if the amplifier is somehow filtering out the 1150+ frequencies and preventing them from even reaching the first 3-way splitter.

    Here's a new diagram outlining the current wiring.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  6. sfx2000

    sfx2000 Part of the Furniture

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    Older cable installs - not likely to be honest - they rarely hit RG56 spec much less RG6....

    To get the most out of Moca 2.0 - gotta be RG6 -- Hint... less loss is better, and 3dB is a big deal on a longer run...

    RG 59 Signal Loss (in dB) per 100 ft:
    • Loss at 50 MHz: 2.4 dB
    • Loss at 100 MHz: 3.4 dB
    • Loss at 400 MHz: 7.0 dB
    • Loss at 900 MHz: 11.1 dB
    • Loss at 1000 MHz: 12.0 dB
    RG 6 Signal Loss (in dB) per 100 ft:
    • Loss at 50 MHz: 1.5 dB
    • Loss at 100 MHz: 2.0 dB
    • Loss at 400 MHz: 4.3 dB
    • Loss at 900 MHz: 6.8 dB
    • Loss at 1000 MHz: 7.0 dB
     
  7. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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    i count 3-4 insertions @ 3db per = 9-12 db signal loss unless they are low loss (<2db each)).
    Maybe running out of signal irrespective of cable. And yes, the amp may not be helping depending on the loss from in to passive out (non-amplified i assume). It would have to support MOCA 2 explicitly.
     
  8. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    My installation was done I think in 2012. I'm not sure how to tell if the cables are RG59 or RG6.
     
  9. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Here's the amp I have. Spec sheet says nothing about MoCA, but their support video for this amp says to install all MoCA devices on the non-passive leg. Strange that my MoCA has been working for years on the passive leg o_O

    I wonder, what if I take the input cable, put that onto the input of a splitter, then have 1 output go to the input on the amp, and 1 output going to the whole MoCA network? Maybe a dumb idea as I already am dealing with a 3-way and a 2 way splitter on the MoCA network as it is...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  10. Samir

    Samir Very Senior Member

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    A couple of questions. How are you evaluating the speeds between moca devices? Have you tried just disconnecting the rest of the network from the amp and see if the moca devices will talk to each other at full speed? Moca can be used point-to-point, so you can use them to test each cable segment independently if need be.
     
  11. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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    It will be labeled on the outer sheath as RG-59 or RG-6.

    i agree with doing this as point to point for testing each leg of cable. You may have a sharp bend or nail-in-cable somewhere. Terminations could also be an issue if the shield is not connected to the barrel or there is a shield wisker inside the termination touching the central conductor. And unless that amp explicitly shows it will pass up to MOCA 2 speed, i would not count on it for anything more than MOCA 1
     
  12. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Ok so I have now isolated the MoCA network. The only devices attached right now are the two bonded adapters and an X1 DVR. All are attached by a single 3-way splitter. I'm still capping out at around 170Mbps up/down. The only thing attaching these

    When I run a speed test by my main router I'm well over 200Mbps down and over 400Mbps up, so in looking for performance close to that on the second moca adapter.

    Config page still shows 1150MHz, which is MoCA 1.1 and aligns with the speeds I'm currently seeing I think.

    Edit: I now have a direct line between both MoCA devices, they are side by side. My down speed is still the same but my up speed is closer to 700Mbps (I'm on fiber).
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  13. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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    you need a few meters of cable at least if they are direct connected. Do you have some RG-6, say 25 ft, new with connectors so that you can verify the modem to modem transfer rate ?

    Once you have them verified, you can use them to test each leg of cable, then cable + devices until you find the culprit.
     
  14. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    I do have some longer lengths of RG6 I think (I was testing with a 3ft cable), but realistically, climbing up on the roof again to test cables and potentially replace cables is where I'm going to draw the line with this project. I've now set everything back to the way it was (keeping my newer splitters in place), and calling it a day. 170Mbps up/down it is. At least I'll get fuller speed in the front of my house. :confused:

    Thanks for all the help guys.

    Edit: Ok I just can't give up. I've now discovered that there is a satellite dish on my roof, probably from a previous tenant. I'm not sure if this thing is on and/or plugged into my amp. There is one excess cable plugged into the amp that I cannot account for...plot thickens.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  15. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Update. I just removed my X1 DVR from the second splitter, and speeds at both MoCA adapters are now full speed. As soon as I plug the X1 DVR back into this splitter, speeds are reduced to MoCA 1.1. I thought I read in the MoCA spec that different versions of MoCA devices can coexist and run at the appropriate speeds. Guess this is not the case with my adapters. I'm wondering now if I can somehow isolate the X1.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
  16. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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    it will downgrade to the lowest common denominator.
    See if you can put in on a gigabit switch off of the MOCA 2 adapter instead of direct on the cable.
     
  17. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Interesting, I thought that was contrary to spec. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Here's what section 1.2 says:

    "The MoCA system network model creates a coax network which supports communications between a convergence layer in one MoCA node to the corresponding convergence layer in another MoCA node. All MoCA 2.0 devices also comply with all of the specifications for MoCA 1.0 and 1.1 devices. When MoCA 1.0 or 1.1 devices are present in the same network as MoCA 2.0 devices all communication between MoCA 1 devices and MoCA 2.0 devices uses MoCA 1 protocols. In the same network MoCA 2.0 devices communicate with other MoCA 2.0 devices using MoCA 2.0 protocols."

    I'm not sure what you mean by putting it on a gigabit switch.

    I'm also thinking about adding a coax coupler on my roof to simply attach the two MoCA adapters directly and bypass all the X1 system altogether. Do you think there would be any danger in terms of grounding, since this would then separate the MoCA adapters entirely from the existing coax run/splitters?

    (I know it would be easier to just run a cat cable somewhere, but I'm in a rental and would rather not drill holes)
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  18. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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    If this is the property owners installation, best leave it alone, as there are liability issues if you change it without permission and if you do not have the proper certs to protect you even if they give it.
     
  19. klatox

    klatox Occasional Visitor

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    Nope it's my installation. Property owner does not reside here or have any knowledge of my coax situation.
     
  20. degrub

    degrub Very Senior Member

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    Sorry, can't help further. This is getting into NEC installation requirements.