What's new

New To NAS-Looking At TS-412: Some queries

  • SNBForums Code of Conduct

    SNBForums is a community for everyone, no matter what their level of experience.

    Please be tolerant and patient of others, especially newcomers. We are all here to share and learn!

    The rules are simple: Be patient, be nice, be helpful or be gone!

windbag

Occasional Visitor
Apologies if you've you've seen this posted on another discussion board, but I'm not getting much response there - maybe you guys might find my query worth a reply...
I'm looking to set up my first NAS hooking it into to my Virgin WiFi quad ethernet port router (Netgear VMDG280, nearest retail unit is CG32000D). This is located under the stairs for house-wide access, and I want the assembly to be a share station along with my 2 printers - one colour, one b/w.
I have a few small queries and ONE big query, all prefixed by * if you want to skip straight to them, but to I'll give the background context first:

My desktop Windows Vista PC is already split into software on the C: drive and data on the G: drive (with two others for email and temp work).
By data I mean all my texts, spreadsheets, accounting, music and photo and home video files.
I currently have everything on RAID 1 to give me more chance of swapping in disks to keep data safe, which has proved invaluable. [I know RAID isn't backup, but it gives you more chance to backup if a drive goes down. I do also have a backup!]

My G-drive data 500GB disk has already overflowed. My photos/home videos are already 300GB and accelerating fast, and have had to be put on to off-line disks. I'd like to reunite all my data from the online PC and offline photo archive to a RAID1 NAS to enable live access from any WiFi PC in the house, plus streamers (and who knows, a tablet down the line).

First duty would be standard daily WiFi desktop access from a different room, but increasingly want to access via WiFi from the TV and my media streamer (Western Digital TV Live, old version) for music & photos, though if I were shut out from seeing my 1080p home videos made on the camera, that would be annoying (for info, my WiFi connection is easily good enough to stream HQ video from the BBC iPlayer). HiFi audio steaming will be a target when the NAS is in place.

A priority is a unit that can expand with my future needs.
As I said, home pictures are rapidly accelerating, but I've also been holding off converting 10,000 CDs (including ~2,000 singles) until I have a robust place to put them. The music files will probably be hi-rate mp3, but FLAC may be a possibility, depending on some listening tests I'll conduct when the NAS is set up (ideally have flexibility to go either or both ways).
I'd also like to be able to access my data via the web when elsewhere (probably download only) and in a few years time I can see I'll be looking to set up my own website. Down the line I can see the potential to hook in a future burglar alarm/house monitoring system.
With electricity costs forever increasing, low energy when not actively accessed is important. Not being a noise intrusion is a real plus.

I've been looking at a the QNAP TS 412, as it is on a good deal right now, plus an initial installation of 2x2TB disks as a RAID1 pair at startup.

I've been doing research and believe that most of what I need is available in the 412. I'll list what I believe are key features for the above - PLEASE correct me if any of these beliefs are wrong:

Relevant key properties of the QNAP TS-412:
RAID1 array sizes can be expanded by addition of discs when needed.
I should be able to run both my colour and b/w printers.
Data accessible via web browser from off-site & capable of being a website server.
4 bays, can take up to 3TB discs in each, can have a max capacity of 16TB enabled by adding units via 4USB and 2eSATA ports.
* (does that mean 8TB max in RAID1, or 16TB in each half of a RAID1?)
* Or should I just go for EXT4 disk formatting from the beginning?
* (& does that have any implications about what I can plug into the USB/eSATA ports?)

Providing PC data access is reasonably fast and one-at-a-time streaming works OK, I'm not too bothered about it taking a while to copy all my files to the system, as I don't plan to do that too often.

MAIN QUERY: (this is quite possibly very dumb!):
* What I find unclear is how my data is accessed via the Windows PC:
** Does the NAS data appear as a drive in Explorer & have a normal windows Filepath on bootup?
** If not, can a script be run to make it so?
* Cost isn't a dominant issue, but future-proofing is (expansion, possibly speed).
* In normal "access" use, would the 419P+ be significantly better? Or even the 459 Pro+ or 459Pro II?
(bearing in mind the others are at least twice the price of the 412 & the difference could put in the 2x2TB drives)
I read posts citing Samba/CIFS on this, but they assumed I knew what they were referring to, but I don't....
...pointers to outline guides are welcome!

I can't even see an online tutorial for "use a QNAP NAS as a central, shared data store".
Perhaps it is deemed too trivial...?

Finally:
* My data file structure has been carefully built up over time. Can I put my photos etc in my existing data tree, or will I be forced to put photos/movies/music in some predefined area, perhaps with a different drive letter mapping?

Very finally:
* If you use a NAS & Windows and have experience of QNAP as well as Netgear and/or Synology, I'd welcome advice about how well each of these NAS interfaces integrate with the Windows OS, which often seems low on the discussion priorities...
 
RAID1 is ordinarily at most 2 drives, with mirroring.
Preaching: RAID is not a backup. It helps protect from drive failure. A good NAS has USB3 or eSATA to which you connect a drive for doing occasional backups. Or you do it (slowly) to a cloud backup service if you trust them.

A NAS will expose your defined NAS-resident shared folders to the LAN, for PCs, Apple MACs, and Linux based computers. "SMB" is used for these shares. And good NAS can import the shares created by computers, e.g., to copy that data into the NAS as a "pull". It appears no differently than shares you may have among windows PCs on your LAN. So your folder trees can copy into the NAS.

Indeed, I and others put all our primary storage on the NAS itself and not the PC, and with prudent backups of the NAS, the PC's disks aren't used for data storage. The reason you don't read much about integration with Windows is that shares/SMB make it trivial and transparent.

For my home use, photos, small video collection, zillions of misc. files, I chose to use a Synology DS212 with two 2TB disks in non-RAID arrangement. Here, each disk is a separate volume. Shared folders on disk #1 are on the LAN and disk #2 gets a copy of what's on disk #1. This copying is done as a time machine backup, so I can get any prior file for the last month. This is an automatic scheduled task in the standard features of the NAS.

Take a test drive on the web site at Synology and QNAP and see the feature sets. They have on-line demo NASes.
 
Last edited:
If you want expansion, you are better off using RAID 5,6 or 10. They are more space efficient.

Please note that RAID IS NOT BACKUP.
Smart SOHOs Don't Do RAID

* What I find unclear is how my data is accessed via the Windows PC:
** Does the NAS data appear as a drive in Explorer & have a normal windows Filepath on bootup?
** If not, can a script be run to make it so?
NASes support SMB/CIFS, which is supported by all common OSes. You would simply use the Windows Map Network Drive function.

For simple NAS tutorials try
How To Choose the Right NAS for You

How To Buy a NAS - The Short(er) Version - Updated 2011


* My data file structure has been carefully built up over time. Can I put my photos etc in my existing data tree, or will I be forced to put photos/movies/music in some predefined area, perhaps with a different drive letter mapping?
NASes usually have preset folders for media files. You need to use these, however, only if you want to use the built-in DLNA/UPNP AV functions.

* If you use a NAS & Windows and have experience of QNAP as well as Netgear and/or Synology, I'd welcome advice about how well each of these NAS interfaces integrate with the Windows OS, which often seems low on the discussion priorities...
All support SMB/CIFS so there is no real difference in Windows file sharing among them.
 
Thanks & ** I know about backup ! **

Thanks for some fast replies.

It is helpful to know that the 3 main makes look pretty much the same to a Windows PC as the others - that simplifies matters.
As the QNAP TS 412 is half the price of similar units , that looks favourite unless I hear significant negativity about it.
Please, if anyone else has relevant experience of the TS412 (and/or saw reasons NOT to use it) please do post here before I go and buy it.

I will look at the on-line demos, but one quick point before I finish this quick thank-you post - I'll quote my own post AGAIN, with the relevant bit highlighted :
I currently have everything on RAID 1 to give me more chance of swapping in disks to keep data safe, which has proved invaluable. [I know RAID isn't backup, but it gives you more chance to backup if a drive goes down. I do also have a backup!]

RAID1 has enabled me to do backups on my system 8 times before rebuilding the RAID array, as that many disks went down on me in my current system - which turned out to be down to an intermittently faulty p/s.
I do backups of everything on the computer, which was why I was going to start with 2x2TB, as my current backup central (stored in the shed) is a 2TB disk. RAID5/6/10 may be more space efficient and I may get there down the line; initially I want the extra bays/expansion flexibility for future-proofing. When I bought my current system, the salesman wanted to know why I wanted such a big data drive (500GB!) :)
 
Thanks also to you, Tim, for your helpful reply, and for the pointers to valuable info pages - I hope to take the time to mark & inwardly digest over the long weekend.

One quick point:
If you want expansion, you are better off using RAID 5,6 or 10. They are more space efficient.

Please note that RAID IS NOT BACKUP.
Smart SOHOs Don't Do RAID

RAID1 and redundancy has saved me a lot so far, and my policy has been that disks are cheap, losing my data isn't. I learned that in 2000 when I had to spend most of a grand getting back my 60GB of data (60GB!:)), equivalent to losing an entire new PC at the time. I go for double redundancy for crucial files, which are further duplicated on memory cards. I can't afford to re-catalogue 10,000 CD's, for example :eek:

I can see, though, that a NAS can make my full backups much more reliable by doing them on a scheduled basis - which my current manual regime doesn't - and the link quoted highlights the need to have a shadow copy on a disk that is readable outside a dead NAS, which is something I hadn't thought through :eek:
But whatever strategy you employ, you can lose. Only yesterday, I noted I'd lost an important single data point from a spreadsheet I work on intermittently. My irregular manual backups had not overwritten the old file which still had the missing data. A daily or weekly backup would have already lost it. You pays your money and takes your choice!
 
Last edited:
But whatever strategy you employ, you can lose. Only yesterday, I noted I'd lost an important single data point from a spreadsheet I work on intermittently. My irregular manual backups had not overwritten the old file which still had the missing data. A daily or weekly backup would have already lost it. You pays your money and takes your choice!
I apologize for not reading your first post more closely. That's what happens with long posts! :)

Sounds like you understand the value of multiple backups and that no system is perfect. It's all about damage control!
 
And.. where do the backup disks get stored? It may be the case that for a residential user's loss of backups, the most likely scenario is, rather than fire/weather, indeed: burglary. So my NAS is more or less out of sight, not adjacent to the visuals that the thieves might see.
 
That's why I'm windbag!

That's what happens with long posts! :)

Always a problem when coming on to a new group with a new issue.
If you don't put all the relevant detail in, you immediately get asked for it - if you do, it gets to be a long post and folk can't take it all in.

I find it saves a lot of thread length to include detail upfront, which often means a long first post - hence the username!
 
Last edited:
Helps with overall strategy...

And.. where do the backup disks get stored?

I did say I kept it in the shed (a detail I left to my second post) - the card backup is in my wallet - which is possibly the least secure!;)

You point is well taken, though - I'm hoping to site the NAS/backup cradle with my two printers, which are old school/weigh a ton/burglar unfriendly. Keeping the NAS & USB cradle out of obvious sight in that setup would be wise, though.

These points are making me think I'll go for a permanently attached USB cradle with a nightly backup, and swap that out once a month with a second one that otherwise resides in the shed. Then I would get theft mitigation and a months retrieval time-shift from the shed disk, plus nightly backup to disk usable outside a dead NAS, all on top of RAID robustness to buy time for backups when a NAS drive goes down (which I perceive to be the most likely event)
 
Last edited:
Another small query

Talking about dead drives in a NAS - I've been using Seagates in my PC with a good extended warranty, and to get a dead disk replacement, they require the user to put it through a PC checking utility which gives an error code that must be quoted.

If I pull out an drive that has been deemed "dead" out of a NAS & put it into my PC for the test, will it ruin the formatting that the NAS has made ? (ie will it need reformatting as far as the NAS is concerned).

I ask as, my most recent disk "failure" turned out to be a combined power/SATA connection twin lead connector, and when tested on a different connector, was, in fact OK.

[Quick point for info. Seagate claim to have a Vista-compatible utility to do the test via USB cradle in Full Windows. In my PC it's a lie - it doesn't see Seagate disks via USB on my Vista system - which they seem mystified by, but have NO solution for it]

:confused: should I post this to a new thread?
 
Does Seagate accept SMART test coded results?

What I don't like is that WD and maybe Seagate exchange in-warranty drives for "refurbished" drives, with lord knows how many hours on them.
 
Does Seagate accept SMART test coded results?

No, they only take a code generated by their test utility, so it's VERY irritating that their Windows/USB version doesn't work in my Vista machine. Putting it in the machine is a lot more work AND can disrupt my 2xRAID1 array setup (which takes up all 4 of my on-motherboard SATA ports)

What I don't like is that WD and maybe Seagate exchange in-warranty drives for "refurbished" drives, with lord knows how many hours on them.
I've no evidence that Seagate has done that, but I'm not sure I'd know how to interrogate a disk to know if they had. At least the replacement disks worked each time. Surprised WD don't reset the disk odometer.
 
I've no evidence that Seagate has done that, but I'm not sure I'd know how to interrogate a disk to know if they had. At least the replacement disks worked each time. Surprised WD don't reset the disk odometer.
Though I've had very few disk failures over many years, WD's warranty replacement came to me with paperwork that said "refurbished". For a disk drive with a motor and bearings, could "refurbished" mean more than erased and tested? Spin-up hours could be large, I worry.
 
Another long post. Again, the queries are prefixed by a *(at the bottom), but other comments that might spring to mind could be be dealt with in the other details in the post.

I'm still very drawn to a QNAP TS-412, largely because of the glowing review in the new (July 2012) UK edition of Computer Shopper.

So I looked through the choosing a NAS tutorials, which are salutary, but I didn't pick up much I hadn't already gleaned elsewhere.

Then I tried the live QNAP 'demo', but was underwhelmed :(

I get in the front end with the advised username/password, but there seems very little I can do after that beyond scrolling through the screens.

In Web file manager:
After ensuring the "Enable Web File Manager" & "Show service link on the login page" boxes were checked & noting the instruction :
"After enabling this service, click the following link to enter to Web File Manager",
it is off-putting that neither of link works in any of my browsers (IE9 or Maxthon or Opera);
1st link (http://qnap-eu-demo.dyndns.org:8080/cgi-bin/filemanager/) puts up a wait icon for ages, then could not connect ("Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" in IE9,"Navigation to the webpage was canceled" in Maxthon & "Could not connect to remote server" in Opera)
2nd link (https://qnap-eu-demo.dyndns.org:443/cgi-bin/filemanager/) immediately fails security certificate test on all browsers, *then* gives a 404 error.

Back at the home page, I can't add a test user or a test network share, so I can't really see how their demo tells me anything more than screenshots in a manual would.

The same goes for System Admin:
Service Binding/Hardware/Security (I note one IP address has been blocked, presumably unfriendly)/Mail/Power Management etc etc
are all there as would be on a real one, so show me what is controllable, but
don't get me seeing how my files "look" like to my Vista PC.
I also cannot try out how they can be automatically brought into the Windows drive letter regime automatically on bootup and whether they would remain so after a resumption from hibernation(low-power state,not sleep), which is a key factor for me (not said that so far).

After a frustrating time, I did try try to directly connect to the QNAP demo server via their shown addresses in the Network page (192.168.2.161[IP] or 192.168.2.1[gateway]), but just got a "failed to connect" or Windows cannot access 192.168.2.161"(the network path was not found). Tried repairing that, then reconnecting - no change.
There are loads of other settings which have no meaning to me, but I was assuming that the defaults would be compatible with the majority of those seeking a demo via the net - namely Windows PCs. If they are, then I don't seem to be able to exchange data with the demo NAS in any meaningful way.

*:confused:In short, this leaves me feeling very out of my depth, and little confidence that after getting the NAS box & disks and formatting them that I will have the slightest clue what to do next to ;
*a) get it usable on my main PC once
*b) believe it will still be usable on resumption from low-power state
**Do I need the "wake on LAN" facility that the 419P+ has for this, for example?
*c) automate the NAS unit mapping into Windows explorer on PC bootup (can probably get it connected once, but would forget any subtle details the next day - which is the motive to seek a script that could be executed on bootup)

If I could get a picture of those last three things, I might go ahead.
 
Some people get burned when the NAS controller itself fails, or the NAS power supply and it damages something or is un-replaceable.

I think its then that you want a NAS that uses an open standard partition arrangement and file system - like one of the Linux file systems that many but not all NASes use. That way, worst case, the drive can be read, with the proper driver, on a windows PC to do data recovery in the face of a busted NAS with perfectly good drives. I think Synology an QNAP do this for RAID1 and maybe RAID5. It's something to check before buying. I've read horror stories about people with dead NAS controllers and no documentation on how to read the drives with a PC or some different NAS.

In mine, I use two volumes with independent file systems - rather than RAID1, to protect from file system corruption, even with me doing a once a week backup to external USB3. Maybe I'm too paranoid, but in my job, I've seen some very expensive errors - even human errors (where's the undelete command for yesterday's mistake?). I saw 300GB go down the tubes when an unconnected drive vibrated off to a long drop from the top of a busy disk system.
 
Last edited:
Covered, no?

Some people get burned when the NAS controller itself fails, or the NAS power supply and it damages something or is un-replaceable.
I thought this scenario was what the Smart SOHOs Don't Do RAID link posted by thiggins above. That made me realise a dead NAS could mean the equivalent of the family jewellery locked in a safe with a lost combination - very unobtainable. Even a replacement safe is not compensation!:eek:

Which is what made me extend a simple overnight backup strategy to that I described earlier; having an overnight backup to an offboard disk via eSATA or USB, which periodically (probably monthly) gets swapped with a predecessor stored in the garden shed.

That protects against all these scenarios, in order of (my perceived) likelihood:
  • In-NAS HDD failure (via RAID1)
  • NAS unit failure
  • Accidental file corruption in past month (via shed archive)
  • Theft of NAS (Via attached archive)
  • Theft of NAS AND attached backup (via shed archive)
  • Fire destroying both NAS unit and attached backup
The basic system setup protects against any single disk failure by swapout, the backup strategy protects against fire, theft and file mangling by computer or human error.

I'm not anticipating being able to get my data back from a dead NAS.

My unresolved issue at the moment is being totally unclear about how a setup TS-412 populated with my data will interact with my Vista PC on a day by day basis.

If I can see ways to ensure it as easy as accessing my current data, I'll be there....
 
"I'm not anticipating being able to get my data back from a dead NAS."

why not?

That's why my NAS is non-RAID. It's independent volumes and each drive partitioning and file system is readable on a Linux OS or Windows with an add-on driver - for disks removed from a NAS or RAID box with a dead power supply or controller. Disks don't use a proprietary format/file system.
 
That's why my NAS is non-RAID.
Well, I'm persuadable either way on that. But I'll re-state my current main concern, which it would be really great if someone could help me with:

My unresolved issue at the moment is being totally unclear about how a setup TS-412 populated with my data will interact with my Vista PC on a day by day basis:

*a) get it usable on my main PC once
*b) believe it will still be usable on resumption from low-power state
**Do I need the "wake on LAN" facility that the 419P+ has for this, for example?
*c) automate the NAS unit mapping into Windows explorer on PC bootup (can probably get it connected once, but would forget any subtle details the next day - which is the motive to seek a script that could be executed on bootup)

If I can see ways to ensure it as easy as accessing my current data, I'll be glad to move to a purchase....
 

Similar threads

Latest threads

Sign Up For SNBForums Daily Digest

Get an update of what's new every day delivered to your mailbox. Sign up here!
Top