not sure I 100% understand MOCA

[sdrubbins]

Does it just extend ethernet?

I'm planning to set up a network in a house that is sort of shaped like a big 'L.' It has been challenging to get good wifi coverage (admittedly, with last-gen 802.11n hardware).

I just realized that most rooms in the house are wired with coax, and only a couple are being used for televisions. So, if I can glom onto various unused coax runs, I can get a wireless AP at each corner of that 'L' (call them A, B, and C). The cable comes into the house at one of the corners, so the router can cover that one. But I'm not sure how to set up the rest. I guess I'm envisioning something like this:

coax
|
modem
|
cat6
|
wireless router (A)
|
cat6
|
moca
|
coax
|
2-way splitter -- coax -- moca -- cat6 -- AP (C)
|
coax
|
moca
|
cat6
|
AP (B)

Will the router work with those two APs? Or should I send two different cat6 cables from the router and use 4 moca adapters instead of 3? Would that even work?

If it does work, any recommendations for wifi hardware to use with this. Would one of the new-fangled systems like Orbi/Eero/Google make sense, or would it be unnecessary/overkill?

Thx in advance

 

[sdrubbins]

Alternative:

coax
|
modem
|
cat6
|
wireless router (A) -- cat6 -- moca -- coax -- moca -- cat6 -- AP (C)
|
cat6
|
moca
|
coax
|
moca
|
cat6
|
AP (B)

 

[degrub]

What grade of coax do you have rg-59 or rg-6 ?
If rg-6, you should be able to use moca2. Make sure you track down all splitters and any amps and make sure they support the full moca2 frequency range and are bidirectional. Make sure any open ports are terminated with 75 ohm caps. Actiontec 6200 modems seem to work well.

Use a star layout if you need maximum throughput between points. Depending on your network traffic, you may not need to do this. Also, your cable layout may not allow it.

If it is rg-59, you may only get moca1.1 speeds.

 

[sdrubbins]

I'm not sure what grade wires they are... but it doesn't really matter, they are what they are and it's all we've got available if we aren't ripping out wiring. They were installed with the house in the mid/late 90s when it was built, to provide cable TV in every room. My parents now have TVs in 3 of the rooms, and 2 other rooms have unused coax ports, which would make really nice placement to cover the whole house with strong wifi. (The house rambles a bit and it has been a real challenge to get solid coverage with the ~2014-style 802.11n base station + extender.)

It looks to me like there are lines running to each room, and about 9 coax wires are coming together in a grand junction in the garage. That's where the main cable comes into the house. So I figure, if there are separate line running to the rooms I want to use (I'll need to experiment to see which goes where), I can simply disconnect them from the house's existing coax network, and plug them into MOCA adapters. And plug those into a router. And then plug the router back into the house's data connection via a modem.

So now those two lines will be completely separate from the rest, running solely behind the router. And in those two rooms, I'll use two more MOCA adapters to convert them back to cat6, and plug that into APs.

If there are splitters inside the walls that I don't know about, it will be a different story. But when I look at that big mess of wires in the garage, it sure does seem like there's a separate line going to each room. I'll have to drag a cable box from room to room and test them to confirm. The thing seems like a coax version of your average electric circuit breaker box in your basement, where none of the breakers are labeled...

 

[System Error Message]

moca is a kind of coffee, often misspelled

Its actually just coaxial cable used by some cable TVs and ISPs. wire grades do matter for the equipment you use (they have different resistances).

 

[degrub]

I'm not sure what grade wires they are... but it doesn't really matter, they are what they are and it's all we've got available if we aren't ripping out wiring. They were installed with the house in the mid/late 90s when it was built, to provide cable TV in every room. My parents now have TVs in 3 of the rooms, and 2 other rooms have unused coax ports, which would make really nice placement to cover the whole house with strong wifi. (The house rambles a bit and it has been a real challenge to get solid coverage with the ~2014-style 802.11n base station + extender.)

It looks to me like there are lines running to each room, and about 9 coax wires are coming together in a grand junction in the garage. That's where the main cable comes into the house. So I figure, if there are separate line running to the rooms I want to use (I'll need to experiment to see which goes where), I can simply disconnect them from the house's existing coax network, and plug them into MOCA adapters. And plug those into a router. And then plug the router back into the house's data connection via a modem.

So now those two lines will be completely separate from the rest, running solely behind the router. And in those two rooms, I'll use two more MOCA adapters to convert them back to cat6, and plug that into APs.

If there are splitters inside the walls that I don't know about, it will be a different story. But when I look at that big mess of wires in the garage, it sure does seem like there's a separate line going to each room. I'll have to drag a cable box from room to room and test them to confirm. The thing seems like a coax version of your average electric circuit breaker box in your basement, where none of the breakers are labeled...

there will be printing on the cable jacket that will state - RG-59 or RG-6.

 

[beboptrumpet]

I've had moca for years. Tivo uses it.
These are your friends if you are going down that route.
-moca filters
-75 ohm coax termination caps on unused outlets

 

[Samir]

I can simply disconnect them from the house's existing coax network, and plug them into MOCA adapters. And plug those into a router. And then plug the router back into the house's data connection via a modem.

So now those two lines will be completely separate from the rest, running solely behind the router. And in those two rooms, I'll use two more MOCA adapters to convert them back to cat6, and plug that into APs.

I think you may have the basic idea here, but not following what you're talking about with the router.

The nice thing about moca is it is a 'shared medium' type of network, so you can use just one moca at the garage for multiple endpoints as long as you use a coax splitter to feed the other moca endpoints. This will reduce the number of moca adapters you need from 2N to 1+N, N being the number of cable home runs.

What I would do is this--use a moca at the router to feed that signal back to the garage. Take that coax and remove it from the existing distribution tap and plug it into a dedicated tap just for the moca locations, and then move locations that you want moca from the existing distribution tap to the new 'moca tap'. Then put moca adapters at your endpoints where you want APs and you're done.

 

[sdrubbins]

I guess I don't understand how MOCA works at a basic level. Does the signal run bi-directionally? I think I've seen some diagrams where people put a splitter on an end-point coax cable and run one line to a cable modem, which sends ethernet to a router, which sends ethernet to a MOCA adapter, which sends coax back into the other end of that splitter... which then sends the signal back into the wall and out to the rest of the coax network? Could that be right?

I've got, basically, the main cable line coming into the garage and it then gets split into eight separate lines, one of which goes to each room in the house. I was going to try to disconnect three of those lines from the CATV network and set them up as a physically separate little network - because I'm a noob and I can wrap my head around that pretty easily. In that case the new, separate coax network would be "downstream" of the router and cable modem; and those along with 5 other coax runs would all be "downstream" of the main cable feed.

BUT 1) this involves 2N MOCA adapters, as Samir says, not N+1; and 2) it might be pretty difficult to physically separate the two coax networks - it's a real bad rat's nest where the coax runs emerge from the walls into the garage. And 3) I can't be 100% sure that there aren't splitters in the walls which would make separating the networks impossible. I need to preserve the basic CATV capabilities of the five untouched coax runs. And 4) a final downside here is that if someone wants to use one of my two mini-network coax runs for CATV in the future, they would be unable to do so unless they physically reconnect them (disconnecting the ethernet network in the process).

So, does the coax network that uses MOCA adapters for wireless APs really need to be downstream of my router? Because the router obviously needs to be downstream of the cable modem, and the cable modem obviously need to be downstream of the coax source of my data connection... this circularity is what I just can't wrap my head around. Could my cable modem and router theoretically go in any room? Taking the overall cable feed from the coax network, and sending an (MOCA-converted) ethernet signal back through that same coax network? That would explain why a POE filter would be necessary back at the main feed into the house...

Am I just talking myself into understanding what seems obvious to everyone else?

 

[degrub]

I guess I don't understand how MOCA works at a basic level. Does the signal run bi-directionally?

Yes

I think I've seen some diagrams where people put a splitter on an end-point coax cable and run one line to a cable modem, which sends ethernet to a router, which sends ethernet to a MOCA adapter, which sends coax back into the other end of that splitter... which then sends the signal back into the wall and out to the rest of the coax network? Could that be right?

I've got, basically, the main cable line coming into the garage and it then gets split into eight separate lines, one of which goes to each room in the house. I was going to try to disconnect three of those lines from the CATV network and set them up as a physically separate little network - because I'm a noob and I can wrap my head around that pretty easily. In that case the new, separate coax network would be "downstream" of the router and cable modem; and those along with 5 other coax runs would all be "downstream" of the main cable feed.

ethernet from router>>>moca adapter>>>4 way bi-directional MOCA 2 rated splitter/combiner
>> three cables from splitter/combiner
each cable end>>>moca adapter>>>ethernet to device or switch or AP or whatever ethernet device

total 3 moca adapters + 1
isolated moca network over coax.

BUT 1) this involves 2N MOCA adapters, as Samir says, not N+1; and 2) it might be pretty difficult to physically separate the two coax networks - it's a real bad rat's nest where the coax runs emerge from the walls into the garage. And 3) I can't be 100% sure that there aren't splitters in the walls which would make separating the networks impossible. I need to preserve the basic CATV capabilities of the five untouched coax runs. And 4) a final downside here is that if someone wants to use one of my two mini-network coax runs for CATV in the future, they would be unable to do so unless they physically reconnect them (disconnecting the ethernet network in the process).

So, does the coax network that uses MOCA adapters for wireless APs really need to be downstream of my router? Because the router obviously needs to be downstream of the cable modem, and the cable modem obviously need to be downstream of the coax source of my data connection... this circularity is what I just can't wrap my head around. Could my cable modem and router theoretically go in any room? Taking the overall cable feed from the coax network, and sending an (MOCA-converted) ethernet signal back through that same coax network? That would explain why a POE filter would be necessary back at the main feed into the house...

Am I just talking myself into understanding what seems obvious to everyone else?

 

[sdrubbins]

ethernet from router>>>moca adapter>>>4 way bi-directional MOCA 2 rated splitter/combiner
>> three cables from splitter/combiner
each cable end>>>moca adapter>>>ethernet to device or switch or AP or whatever ethernet device

total 3 moca adapters + 1
isolated moca network over coax.

Yes - this is my initial noob idea (or, at least it sounds noobish to my own noobish ears). A physically separate coax network completely downstream of my router.

But my issue is, whenever I see people describe these things they start with "ethernet from router" and completely gloss over how you get the internet to the router. Because that comes from a cable modem, which comes from the house's coax network.

Is this what people do - have an all-CATV network or an all-MOCA network, or both side-by-side but still isolated? Or can I use the same coax network for both?

Btw here's that nest of cables. (At least two of them say RG-6 so hopefully they all are.)

EDIT - it looks like that splitter is this one... which means the main feed into the house is probably that wire in the center. That's good that I can identify it! I wonder if this thing works with MOCA...

 

[sdrubbins]

Okay, sorry to spam, but if I have identified the main cable feed into the house, should I just tap that one?

I found this diagram... maybe I could put a POE filter and then a MOCA-compatible splitter on the main line, then add the cable modem and router and MOCA adapter along one half of the split (the red line in that diagram), then bring the two lines back together with another diplexor/bi-directional splitter, and then have the unified line feed into that 6-way splitter.

Then I could put a wireless AP at the location of the router, and add more APs anywhere there is a coax plug in the house.

?

 

[CaptainSTX]

You are making this way to complicated and over thinking it.

1. MOCA and CATV can coexist on the same coaxial run, just be sure that any splitters in your network will pass frequencies over 1000 Mhz.

2. To make MOCA work you need two adapters. A few routers have MOCA built in, but not many.

3. Simple setup: Your first MOCA adapter needs to be near your router. Take an Ethernet cable and connect it between this adapter and a LAN port on your router. Then connect the f-fitting on the MOCA adapter to a coaxial cable that goes to the location where you want to install your AP.

4. At the location where you want the AP attach the f-fitting on the Second MOCA adapter to the coaxial cable. Then run an Ethernet cable from the RJ-45 port on the adapter to what is probably a LAN port on your AP. DONE

For best results the fewer splitters the better. Avoid your 8 port splitter if possible. Use a splitter if you have a location where you want to have both MOCA/DATA and CATV.

 

[sdrubbins]

3. Simple setup: Your first MOCA adapter needs to be near your router. Take an Ethernet cable and connect it between this adapter and a LAN port on your router. Then connect the f-fitting on the MOCA adapter to a coaxial cable that goes to the location where you want to install your AP.
...
For best results the fewer splitters the better. Avoid your 8 port splitter if possible. Use a splitter if you have a location where you want to have both MOCA/DATA and CATV.

This is the part I don't quite get. I don't know what coax cable goes to the location where I want the AP. There is coax cable running into every room; but I don't think one runs to another, rather, it seems like they all run individually to the "main trunk" i.e. the coax line from the street into the garage. (That's what it seems like, from that picture... there's not an easy way to confirm.) Which means they all run to that 6-port splitter...

The router has to be connected to a cable modem, which has to be connected to a coax port in the wall. And unfortunately when they ran coax through the house they only ran one line. So to do as you said, and connect [ router --> ethernet --> MOCA adapter --> coax network ], I will need to feed that coax line from the MOCA adapter back into the same coax wall plug that is feeding the cable modem. Which would require a bi-directional 2-port splitter at that plug.

And then, the only way to follow the coax from that room to another one will be to pass through that 6-port splitter.

EDIT - in which case, maybe I need to replace the existing 6-port splitter with a new one...? Is 5-2300MHz what you want for MOCA networking?

 

[CaptainSTX]

This is the part I don't quite get. I don't know what coax cable goes to the location where I want the AP. There is coax cable running into every room; but I don't think one runs to another, rather, it seems like they all run individually to the "main trunk" i.e. the coax line from the street into the garage. (That's what it seems like, from that picture... there's not an easy way to confirm.)

And the router has to be connected to a cable modem, which has to be connected to a coax port in the wall. And unfortunately when they ran coax through the house they only ran one line. So to do as you said, and connect [ router-->ethernet-->MOCA adapter-->coax network ], I will need to feed that coax line from the MOCA adapter back into the same coax wall plug that is feeding the cable modem.

And then, the only way to follow the coax from that room to another one will be to pass through that 8-port splitter.

Buy a cable tester that tests both Ethernet and coaxial cable and test and identify all cables. With two people it should not take you more than fifteen minutes. The tester I have cost me less than $10.

 

[degrub]

If the identification of the splitter is correct, it will not work with MOCA 2.
Avoid trying to pass through it.

 

[Samir]

I guess I don't understand how MOCA works at a basic level. Does the signal run bi-directionally? I think I've seen some diagrams where people put a splitter on an end-point coax cable and run one line to a cable modem, which sends ethernet to a router, which sends ethernet to a MOCA adapter, which sends coax back into the other end of that splitter... which then sends the signal back into the wall and out to the rest of the coax network? Could that be right?

I've got, basically, the main cable line coming into the garage and it then gets split into eight separate lines, one of which goes to each room in the house. I was going to try to disconnect three of those lines from the CATV network and set them up as a physically separate little network - because I'm a noob and I can wrap my head around that pretty easily. In that case the new, separate coax network would be "downstream" of the router and cable modem; and those along with 5 other coax runs would all be "downstream" of the main cable feed.

BUT 1) this involves 2N MOCA adapters, as Samir says, not N+1; and 2) it might be pretty difficult to physically separate the two coax networks - it's a real bad rat's nest where the coax runs emerge from the walls into the garage. And 3) I can't be 100% sure that there aren't splitters in the walls which would make separating the networks impossible. I need to preserve the basic CATV capabilities of the five untouched coax runs. And 4) a final downside here is that if someone wants to use one of my two mini-network coax runs for CATV in the future, they would be unable to do so unless they physically reconnect them (disconnecting the ethernet network in the process).

So, does the coax network that uses MOCA adapters for wireless APs really need to be downstream of my router? Because the router obviously needs to be downstream of the cable modem, and the cable modem obviously need to be downstream of the coax source of my data connection... this circularity is what I just can't wrap my head around. Could my cable modem and router theoretically go in any room? Taking the overall cable feed from the coax network, and sending an (MOCA-converted) ethernet signal back through that same coax network? That would explain why a POE filter would be necessary back at the main feed into the house...

Am I just talking myself into understanding what seems obvious to everyone else?

The circular thing threw me for a loop initially as well. Think of it this way--CATV and Moca signals can simultaneously exist on a single cable. So when you are feeding the moca back into the same coax that is also going into the cable modem, the cable modem is seeing the CATV, not the Moca, and both the CATV and Moca are being distributed to every endpoint (assuming the splitters are good enough for this) where either a CATV receiver or Moca device (or both) pick up the signal they want. Moca and CATV are both broadcast over the same cable and the Ethernet traffic over Moca is bi-directional.

 

[sdrubbins]

Okay. If I could simply add the MOCA adapters and the modem/router in any rooms with a coax port, without regard to "upstream" or "downstream," then that would make this all a LOT easier.

Another question: that 6-port splitter will have to be replaced, as I mentioned earlier. (There is no getting rid of it, of course, because that's the only way to get coax into 6 rooms from a single feed from the street.) The MOCA-compatible splitters I'm seeing all say "-11db" at each port, whereas the existing one is "-9db." Is that something to be worried about?

 

[degrub]

maybe. That is significant signal reduction. Do you have analog or digital cable provided to TVs ? i am guessing digital. you can try the splitter or talk with your cable company installer tech about what to replace it with.

 

[sdrubbins]

maybe. That is significant signal reduction. Do you have analog or digital cable provided to TVs ? i am guessing digital. you can try the splitter or talk with your cable company installer tech about what to replace it with.

Digital cable... and I'm pretty sure that the cable modem and main living room TV are both attached to a 2-way splitter at the coax port in the living room. Which would mean that, after the -9db 6-way splitter, they must both be suffering a cumulative -12.5db, not including loss from a ~100-foot run of RG6 cable.

If they both work now at a total of -12.5 db, that gives me hope that I can use a MOCA-compatible 8-way splitter in the garage. Replacing the existing 6-way splitter with that would mean I could use the 7th plug for the cable modem, and then run ethernet from the modem through a router through a MOCA adapter, and then feed that back in to the 8th plug in the splitter. If I'm figuring correctly, then the cable modem and TV will both have *less* signal loss than they currently do.