Powerline adaptors unstable after house rewire

[CallMeBen]

Hi all


The network at my mums house consists of 3 AIO MODEM / switch / access point type devices (2 of which are just operating as APs / switches) connected together using some cheap Sumvision Powerline adaptors (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00NI2BYOI/?tag=smallncom-21). It was definitely built to a budget but conceptually it's worked fine for about 9 years during which time everything's been replaced multiple times.


A month or so ago she had the house rewired. Ever since then I've found that any one of the Sumvisions will lose its connection at random which of course then means that all the devices that are connecting (be it wired or wirelessly) to the network using it also loos connectivity. Obviously this isn't ideal in any situation but it's proving hard for her to manage as I no longer live with her & she's struggling to bring everything back up when it happens. Some bits of information that may be of interest:


I've observed the same behaviour with the APs removed from the network - E.G. the same thing happens with 3 Powerline adaptors with a laptop connected to each of them.

Power cycling the offending adaptor solves the issue although sometimes multiple tries are required.

Anecdotally it seems to happen less when only 2 adaptors are in use (unfortunately this isn't an option in the long term).

The equipment, its locations, all the external cabling & other pieces of equipment that are around it haven't changed - to the best of my knowledge the only thing that's changed is the internal wiring of the house.


Does anyone have any ideas about what I could do to resolve it? The electrical side of things is really at the edge of my knowledge so whilst I can quite easily graph the outages even if the electrician who did the work agreed to attempt a fix I wouldn't have a clue what to suggest he did & I have no reason to suspect he knows anything about networking either.

Unfortunately using Ethernet, WiFi or making any (drastic) changes to where things are located are all pretty much out of the picture.


Any suggestions of things to try would be very much appreciated.


Cheers.

 

[degrub]

if the wiring was replaced, then the breaker box should have been replaced as well. Current US code generally requires Arc Fault breakers. AFBs are not good for power line systems.
Also, it could be the path changed from being on circuits on a single phase to now on both phases in the breaker box backplane. So a longer, more complex route for the signal.

You might try upgrading the powerline units to a more recent powerline std. Take a look at the powerline reviews on the site.

 

[sfx2000]

if the wiring was replaced, then the breaker box should have been replaced as well. Current US code generally requires Arc Fault breakers. AFBs are not good for power line systems.
Also, it could be the path changed from being on circuits on a single phase to now on both phases in the breaker box backplane. So a longer, more complex route for the signal.

I would agree...

One thing to test is put two adapters on the same circuit and see if the problem continues...

 

[CallMeBen]

Hi

I should have clarified that I'm in the UK but your theories sound sensible enough to me regardless.
I had a Google and I can't find any information about the chipset or even the standard that the adaptors I'm using (Sumvision HP-1000M-SV linked above) use which I suppose in one way tells me all I need to know.

I've read the Powerline FAQ from 2015 (https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/basics/lanwan-basics/32768-smallnetbuilders-powerline-faq-2015) is that still relatively up to date?
Do you think buying some adaptors that definitely support AV2 MIMO would be a good idea? I don't mind buying things but I don't like blindly throwing money at problems and just hoping they get solved.

Thanks for all your help so far.

 

[degrub]

try sfx2000's experiment above before you start replacing.
It can help you pin down if the issue is the adapters or something else.
i would expect they were using the "homeplug' standard.

http://www.homeplug.org/tech-resources/techoverview/

 

[rnatalli]

As others have mentioned, the breakers are probably the issue. I have a new home and found that the AV2 MIMO adapters AC1200 and up are able to work, but the only way to know for sure is to try them as every home is different.

 

[CallMeBen]

After a bit of testing I've discovered that each adaptor is indeed on a different circuit. I don't think getting someone in to change this is an option so is getting some AC1200's my only option or are there some other things I could try? Thanks again.

 

[Fingers]

I have exactly the same issue with plugs. I have tried loads of different brands and I have tried Broadcom and Qualcomm devices to rule out compatability. Mine is a newish build so the wireing is also recent. The problem must be the breakers as it works fine on the same circuit. The problem only happends when one device is on the ground floor and another is upstairs. The dropout can last from a few seconds to 1 minute, then everything works fine again. It is totally random and happends anytime. Its very frustrating. I can either wait for it to connect itself again or I have to reset the ethernet connection in Windows to reconnect. I have yet to find a soloution.

 

[thiggins]

After a bit of testing I've discovered that each adaptor is indeed on a different circuit. I don't think getting someone in to change this is an option so is getting some AC1200's my only option or are there some other things I could try? Thanks again.

Did you read this troubleshooting article?
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/bas...69-how-to-troubleshoot-your-powerline-network

According to this article,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_United_Kingdom, you likely have a single phase circuit. So you are not dealing with signal loss across phases.

If the rewiring replaced fuses with RCDs or RCBOs (see above article), then you could be dealing with signal loss issues similar to those with AFCIs in the U.S. The experiment you need to do is put two adapters on the circuit behind the same breaker and see if your throughput improves.

If your problems are due to RCD/RCBO signal loss, there isn’t much you can do except try devices from a different manufacturer. But you are flying blind unless you can get technical details about the internal design of the breaker, which are near impossible to get.

 

[degrub]

If you have coax (cable tv) RG-59 or RG-6 you may be able to use MOCA instead of powerline.

 

[sfx2000]

I just always wonder with our friends at the UK...

Is it that the Broadband Providers just have a poorly located demarcation point - as we see a lot of PLC issues as folks try to get a better placement for their primary wireless AP?

 

[thiggins]

I just always wonder with our friends at the UK...

Is it that the Broadband Providers just have a poorly located demarcation point - as we see a lot of PLC issues as folks try to get a better placement for their primary wireless AP?

I wouldn’t say U.S. providers are any better. Whatever is easiest for them, which is usually on the other side of an exterior wall.

Stone/concrete construction is more common over there, which is the larger issue.

 

[Fingers]

I just always wonder with our friends at the UK...

Is it that the Broadband Providers just have a poorly located demarcation point - as we see a lot of PLC issues as folks try to get a better placement for their primary wireless AP?

New builds that dont have FTTP almost always have the Copper phone line master socket in the hallway very close to the front door, because Openreach are lazy! it's the quickest and easiest place to fit the socket, leaving people in a mess as it is not practical to have a AP behind the front door. They have two choices either pay a fortune to have them come out and relocate it or move it illegally and hope for the best. Not forgetting the socket is never close to a power supply.

 

[CallMeBen]

Hi all


A few updates:


I started experimenting with putting the adaptors on the same / different circuits and running some speed tests using iperf although this flushed out an issue with the Sumvisons which were only hitting just under 100Mbps even when AFAIK they were both on the same circuit. The setup was laptop > Sumvision > mains wiring > Sumvision > laptop - the 2 laptops had no problem hitting Gigabit when connected directly together which made me start to suspect the adaptors.

The Sumvisions are rated at 1Gbps which is what the laptops showed they were connected at but the actual transfer speeds suggested that the adaptors were only compliant with Homeplug 1.0 - E.G. 85Mbps. It's an assumption but I'm putting this down to some skullduggery from Sumvision - E.G. the chipset within the adaptor probably only supports Homeplug 1.0 but they've put something in front of it that supports Gigabit. For the purposes of Google the models I have are the HP-1000M-SV.

It was an oversight on my part not to have tested this in the first place. My mum only has DSL and does very little internal data transfer so I hadn't spotted this previously.


I ended up picking up a pair of TP-Link TL-PA7010PKIT (AV2 MIMO) adaptors. Performance on the same circuit is close to Gigabit although given the layout constraints I'm dealing with in practice once everything's set up I'm only averaging around 160Mbps which is a shame but as per above in this instance the throughput isn't incredibly important. The noise filters built into the pass through sockets combined with some shuffling around of appliances appears to have solved the reliability problems (fingers crossed) though which was the original aim so I'm classing it as a success.


Many thanks for all the help.


Cheers.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for reporting back. Glad you got it sorted.