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Problem getting MoCA adaptor to work with splitter

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eisenb11

Occasional Visitor
Hello, I recently picked up a pair Netgear MoCA adaptors. I seem to be having issues getting them up and running. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Some background info: My TV service is FIOS. The coax from the ONT is backfeeding into the house. Internet access is being supplied via CAT5 from the ONT running directly into my firewall/router. The Verizon supplied router is not being used, nor any Verizon STBs. TV access is being done via a Tivo Series 3 with cablecards.

Here are some of the things I've tried and the outcome, hopefully these will provide some clues. I've been partially successful in getting things to work.

1. Attempt 1
I switched both MoCA adaptors to D-Band mode (All Pass would do bad things). Hooked one up to the network and one upstairs to the TV. The result was no TV signal (no video or sound) and no Coax LEDs lighting up on the adaptors.

2. Attempt 2
Found a splitter in the attic. It was 5-1000 MHz. Figured this was stripping out the MoCA info. Replaced it with a new splitter: 5-2300 MHz. The result was that the TV started working (when the unit was off). Turning the unit on, resulted in no Coax LEDs, so the 2 adaptors still couldn't see each other. Also interesting, turning the unit on resulted in the TV signal being lost as well. Turning the unit off brought the TV signals back... weird, but I think this may be important to figuring out what's wrong...

3. Attempt 3
Removed splitter and used a coupler in its place. This essentially just knocked out all cable outlets upstairs except for the one going to the adaptor / TV. The results, I have a TV signal *and* Coax LEDs light up and the adaptors can now see each other and function.

So the problem seems to happen with the splitter in place *and* the MoCA adaptor turned on.

Does anyone know what could be causing this? Is there too much attenuation when the MoCA adaptor is turned on? Something with the splitter that the adaptor doesn't like when it's turned on?

I was thinking about picking up a MoCA point of entry filter, but:

1. I can't figure out where to buy one
2. Is one even needed? Since the coax is going directly into the ONT, it's not like there is any "outside" for the signal to leak to or signals to leak in from. If I understand things correctly, the ONT should be acting as a POE filter, so this may be a non-issue?

Thanks in advance for the help!
 
Please post a diagram of your installation.

Attached is a diagram of that portion of my network. Please forgive my MS Paint skills!
 

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Thanks for the diagram. Is there a reason why you aren't using the FIOS router, which I believe (if it's an Actiontec) supports MoCA?

As the review noted, using All Pass mode will block all signals from the Coax Out. You want MoCA D band.

Let's roll back. Did you have TV access using the same signal path (and all the same splitters) before you put the MoCA adapters in?

Have you tried a reset to factory defaults on both adapters? Do you have the connections made properly to Coax In and Out on both adapters (following the instructions in the setup guide)?
Removed splitter and used a coupler in its place. This essentially just knocked out all cable outlets upstairs except for the one going to the adaptor / TV.
Outlets? How are you getting multiple outlets off one leg of the splitter?
 
Hi thiggins,

I have a hardware firewall that separates my internal network from the internet. The firewall is connected directly into the ONT via Cat5 and acts as my router & gateway server. With this, I'm able to function without using the Actiontec.

Correct, I did have TV access prior to getting the MoCA adaptors. The original splitters were 2-way @ 5-1000 MHz and worked fine for TV. I recently replaced it with a 2-way @ 5-2300 MHz for the MoCA adapters. The pre-MoCA wiring would be the same as pictured, just without the adapters.
 
Oops, looks like I missed an edit. Let me answer the rest of your questions:

As the review noted, using All Pass mode will block all signals from the Coax Out. You want MoCA D band.

Correct, I'm currently using both adaptors in D band.

Have you tried a reset to factory defaults on both adapters?

No, but I did go in and check all options available in the config screen to make sure they're what I *think* I want.

Do you have the connections made properly to Coax In and Out on both
adapters (following the instructions in the setup guide)?

I think it's correct. Here are my connections:

Adaptor 1 (downstairs)
ONT Coax -> IN
OUT -> wall jack

Adaptor 2 (upstairs)
wall jack -> IN
OUT-> TV

Outlets? How are you getting multiple outlets off one leg of the splitter?

I have 3 outlets. Per the diagram:

1. Jack 1 to splitter IN
2. splitter OUT1 to Jack 2
3. splitter OUT2 to Jack 3

Currently, I have the Jack 1 and Jack 2 removed from the splitter and connected to each other via a Female-to-Female coax coupler.

Hope this helps!
 
Everything looks like it's connected correctly. I guess I'd still try a reset-to-defaults on both MoCA adapters. They should work with out-of-the-box settings.

What if you put the splitter back in and disconnect whatever you have connected to the splitter output that isn't being fed to the second MoCA adapter (I guess that's Jack 3...I don't see numberings on the diagram.)
 
Hi thiggins,

Everything looks like it's connected correctly. I guess I'd still try a reset-to-defaults on both MoCA adapters. They should work with out-of-the-box settings.

The out-of-box settings were surprising. One adapter was set for D band, the other was set for All Pass. A google search showed that this is how they ship which is pretty strange.

What if you put the splitter back in and disconnect whatever you have connected to the splitter output that isn't being fed to the second MoCA adapter (I guess that's Jack 3...I don't see numberings on the diagram.)

I'll give that a try when I get home tonight and will post the results on here (it'll be late... about 10:30 PM PST).

One thing that I find strange, however:

With the splitter in place (but the adapter hooked up, but turned OFF) I have video and, obviously no network.

Turn the adapter ON by plugging it in and I suddenly have no video and no network.

Any idea what could cause this?
 
The out-of-box settings were surprising. One adapter was set for D band, the other was set for All Pass. A google search showed that this is how they ship which is pretty strange.
Damned strange. I don't remember that being the case with my review units. You want both set to MoCA D band, Channel=SCAN and no encryption set.

With the splitter in place (but the adapter hooked up, but turned OFF) I have video and, obviously no network.

Turn the adapter ON by plugging it in and I suddenly have no video and no network.

Any idea what could cause this?
But you also get TV and MoCA by removing the splitter, which also removes any load on the second splitter leg or source of possible interference.

Anyway, you could have a bad splitter. I don't think you have one of the MoCA adapters in Config mode (the switch on the back) or you wouldn't be getting a working MoCA connection at all.

Don't rush to post the results on my account! I'm on ET and will be asleep! :)
 
Damned strange. I don't remember that being the case with my review units. You want both set to MoCA D band, Channel=SCAN and no encryption set.

Currently I have, D band, SCAN, encryption set. Confirmed that both adapters have the same settings.

But you also get TV and MoCA by removing the splitter, which also removes any load on the second splitter leg or source of possible interference.

Anyway, you could have a bad splitter. I don't think you have one of the MoCA adapters in Config mode (the switch on the back) or you wouldn't be getting a working MoCA connection at all.

True, perhaps I should pick another splitter up from HomeDepot on my way out tonight?

This is the splitter that I'm using, does it look ok?

link

Don't rush to post the results on my account! I'm on ET and will be asleep! :)

Haha, sounds good, thanks for the help, it'll be ready for you in the morning :)
 
Hi thiggins,

Picked up a different splitter (also 5-2300 MHz) on the way home and it didn't make a difference.

Interestingly enough, I wasn't able to reproduce the video drop with an activated MoCA adaptor this time.

For the sake of clarity let's used this key:

Jack1 = goes to ONT (video source) & Adaptor 1
Jack2 = goes to TV & Adaptor 2
Jack3 = goes to another TV

Using the 2way splitter I tried:

IN: J1
OUT1: J2
OUT2: J3
RESULT: video works, no network

IN: J1
OUT1: J2
OUT2: NOTHING
RESULT: video works, no network

IN: NOTHING
OUT1: J1
OUT2: J2
RESULT: video works, no network

It would seem that my MoCA adapters stop working if I have a splitter involved. The only thing that works is if I use the coupler so J1 & J2 are directly connected.

Both splitters that I tried are 5-2300 MHz.

Hopefully this information may prove useful...?

Thanks again, have a good sleep and catch you tomorrow (well, later today for you I guess) :)

-- EDIT --

Just finished doing some more testing. Finished setting up a laptop as a bandwidth testing rig and ran some benchmarks on the working MoCA system. Throughput seems extremely low at about 16-24 Mb/s. With a theoretical max of 270 Mb/s, I was hoping to see something closer to the 100 Mb/s mark, although I'd be happy with even half that.

I'm now wondering if the reason the units are not working on the splitter is because the signal is too weak and the splitter is the straw that breaks the camel's back?

Some Googling seemed to suggest that the 2300 MHz splitter has a high loss in the higher frequencies and that I should try a 1000 MHz splitter. Since they're $5.00 I guess it wouldn't hurt to pick one up from Frys on the way home on Friday...?

Just some food for thought, but maybe this information will help a bit!

-- EDIT 2 --

Just hooked the laptop directly to a MoCA adapter to run the diagnostics from within the configuration software. The Netgear software claims that the units are transferring at 72-74 Mb/s, however my testing using PCATTCP & iperf is about 1/3 that at 16-24 Mb/s.
 
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I suspect your splitter-signal-loss theory is correct. But how long is your total run? RG-58 or RG-6? Maybe there's a loose connector or bad crimp?

Maybe you should back up again, put the MoCA adapters side by side with just a short coax and run your throughput tests as a benchmark. Then stick your splitter(s) in and see what happens. Be sure to test in both directions.

iperf can give low results depending on Window size and buffer length settings. Transferring a large file and using NetMeter to measure throughput will probably give you a more realistic read.
 
I suspect your splitter-signal-loss theory is correct. But how long is your total run? RG-58 or RG-6? Maybe there's a loose connector or bad crimp?

I'm actually not sure what the cable is. It's not the greatest stuff like the cable coming out of my ONT. I'd love to replace all that wiring, but not sure how difficult it'll be (don't know if it was stapled in... if it's loose, a pull-through would be a cinch probably). The original cable is likely pretty old.

Total run is about 50 ft or so.

Maybe you should back up again, put the MoCA adapters side by side with just a short coax and run your throughput tests as a benchmark. Then stick your splitter(s) in and see what happens. Be sure to test in both directions.

True, that would be an interesting test! Will do that and post results later.

iperf can give low results depending on Window size and buffer length settings. Transferring a large file and using NetMeter to measure throughput will probably give you a more realistic read.

I'll give NetMeter a try. It's strange that the adaptors claim 72 Mb/s while I'm seeing only up to 24 Mb/s. But then again, my Belkin Gigabit powerline adaptors (which I'm returning) claim to be connected at over 200 Mb/s and I'm only getting about 16 Mb/s out of them. Sounds like a lot of that "new math" going around.

Another thing I read was to put diplexers all over the place. If I understand this correctly, I think the diplexers are being used as a point of entry filter in a sense. Being that I can't find a POE filter anywhere to put on my main tap, I'm considering picking up some diplexers to see if they'll do the trick.
 
50 feet of either coax and one splitter should be a piece of cake for MoCA.

Don't bother futzing with diplexers. Those are used when you need to separate MoCA and satellite frequencies.
 
I'm pretty sure I have RG-59 since my place is older, I have a short run (a few feet) of RG-6 at home, I'm curious to see if there is a big performance difference if I use that. I wonder if getting my house rewired is expensive? I'd imagine this could improve my TV quality (which is already pretty good) as well possibly?

Ok, no diplexers... guess the only things that leaves to play with is a 1000 MHz splitter instead of my 2300 MHz one (I had a typo, I believe my original splitter was 900 MHz) and a POE filter if I can ever manage to get my hands on one (turning out to be very difficult).

If the splitter / POE filter don't cut it, I'd imagine that nothing short of a home rewire is left to try...?
 
Hi thiggins,

Just finished running those tests. You're right that NetMeter was a much better testing tool.

I also believe you're also correct about the coax. From what I see from online charts, RG59 loses about 8.8 dB / 100 ft while RG6 loses about 8.2 dB / 100 ft @ 1000 MHz. Pretty much insignificant for the length of my run.

Here are the test results...

Test 1: This is how things were:
Adapter->RG6->Jack->RG59->coupler->RG59->Jack->RG6->Adapter
PHY: 75 Mb/s
Tested: 24-32 Mb/s

Test 2: Units connected to each other (6 ft cable between them)
Adapter->RG6->Adapter
PHY: 224 Mb/s
Tested: 80 Mb/s

It appears I lost about 1/2 my speed in that 50 ft run, which is really unfortunate. The losses currently are so great, that it appears I can't put a splitter in.

Is there such a thing as a MoCA compatible amplifier? Any ideas on what else I can do here?

Thanks again for the help!
 
Problem Solved

Well thiggins,

Most of life's problems can't be solved at 1:00 in the morning with a Red Bull-and-vodka... fortunately this problem isn't one of them! ;)

I was thinking about the two sets of adapter inputs and outputs when it struck me... everything on the adaptor is wired up wrong and I'm messing up the backfeed from the ONT!

Attached is a new diagram containing only the downstairs part. It was lifted from the first diagram that I posted. The top picture is how everything was originally wired (as shown in the original post) and the bottom part is how I fixed it.

You can see from the top that originally, the ONT was feeding into the adaptor (IN) and was then going (OUT) into the jack. This is the key thing. The adaptor is supposed to be plugged into an active jack, not be connected directly to the tap (which is the ONT in my case).

The jack needs to serve as both the backfeed for the ONT and the connection point for the adapter.

I solved this problem by simply using a 2.3 GHz splitter backwards.

Splitter:
IN: Wall Jack
OUT1: ONT (tap)
OUT2: MoCA Adapter

The MoCA adaptor then went from:

IN: ONT
OUT: Wall jack

To:

IN: Wall jack
OUT: nothing

I then went back into the attic and hooked the 2.3 GHz splitter up there back up to connect all the jacks in my home.

Network LED went on, Video on the TV went on... looking good.

Checked the PHY speed with the diagnostics tool and I was connected at 245 Mb/s!

Ran a test with NetMeter and a 600 MB file and I had sustained transfer rates of 80-90 Mb/s!

I think we can mark this one as solved. :)

Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate your time and consideration.
 

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Glad you got it sorted. Damned odd, though, since you really shouldn't need the new splitter and the coax doesn't need to carry any signal besides its own MoCA signal.

If you're up for one more experiment, can you try taking the new splitter out and just reversing the connections to the first MoCA adapter, i.e. ONT out to MoCA Adapter OUT and MoCA adapter IN to wall outlet?

The problem could have been that the ONT was overloading the MoCA adapter. Using the splitter prevents that.

Anyway, I'm sure this thread will be useful to others! Thanks for your patience in working through it.
 
Yeah, one of things that struck me last night was that IN and OUT really aren't IN and OUT.

My flow is ONT -> ADAPTER -> Jack -> Jack -> ADAPTER ->TV...

So you'd think that would be ONT (IN), Jack (OUT), Jack (IN), TV (OUT), but that's not the case.

The "IN" port really should just be labelled "JACK" or something along those lines because that's what always needs to be plugged into the wall. So instead, we have: ONT (OUT), Jack (IN), Jack (IN), TV (OUT).

I just tried your experiement and everything is continuing to work. In fact, I'm now up to 250 Mb/s on the PHY from 245 Mb/s, so there's a slight improvement from getting rid of the second splitter!

So, I guess the conclusion is that the adapter was wired up backwards! :p

Thanks again!
 
Thanks for running the experiment. Guess it was worth it! :)
 

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