"Tacoma Narrows" bridge - need OpenWRT bridge advice, fast!

[coop4lyfe]

Hey there! I'm new, sorry if this is the wrong place for this.

I am starting to share Internet access with neighbors because of the expense in our area and the fact that we don't have a lot of money. I only have one pilot project going now, but 2 to 3 other LANs worth of neighbors interested.

Problem is... well, this is my pilot project, where I learn stuff, right? Well things are breaking and it's threatening the project. My pilot project is a point-to-point link from a "head end" (for the neighbors) router in my house to a wifi-to-ethernet bridge in a good spot on the neighbors' house, which then sends traffic via ethernet cable to an access point.

The problem is that the bridge I have has god-awful proprietary firmware. I used it fine for years as an access point, but as the reverse, it locks up every 8-12 hours and needs to be power cycled. I need to replace this FAST because they are getting unhappy.

• The "head end" is a D-Link DIR-655 running latest stock firmware (it can't run open firmware). It has two 2.4GHz yagis aimed at the bridge.
• The bridge is what I need to replace. My existing option for that is a D-Link DIR-615; everything else spare is 802.11g and n is performing quite well WHEN the bridge isn't locked up.

The stock firmware for the DIR-615 (the potential replacement bridge) does not do any kind of "WDS." The DIR-655 also doesn't include "WDS" function in its firmware. I need the bridge to relay broadcast traffic such that the equipment on my side and on their side is all on the same subnet. Does anyone know how hard this may be on the DIR-615 running OpenWRT? I tried a relayd-based bridge on some other piece of equipment and the networks were still separate; I'm not sure why, but I've had so much bad luck so far with this project (plus noob mistakes) that I'm sure I set it up wrong.

If a DIR-615 can't handle the job, we need an INEXPENSIVE used N300 option which can, and which can survive existing in a damp basement - running hot is actually a good thing in this case. I would like to use OpenWRT on it as a "STA bridge" no matter what I get, unless there is something out there I can get used that is known to work w/stock firmware as a STA bridge with the DIR-655 and is extremely reliable. My current device has such a mode but locks up as I mentioned. External antennas preferred but I can deal if not available.

I have a Netgear WNR2000 v3 laying around (OpenWRT support seems really dodgy) and a Rosewill RNX-N360RT (it's some kind of clone of a TP-Link, thought there was OpenWRT and now confused), and also I could use a Raspberry Pi + a USB N300 device, if there were a compelling reason to do so, though I'd need to wait on shipping for said USB device.

Can anyone advise? These folks aren't really techies and have no idea what a learning curve this is (and I've already done some hotspots and things before) - to them it's wireless, it should Just Work.

 

[L&LD]

I think what you're asking for is illegal?

 

[fistv]

How close is the neighbors house ? Is it close enough that you can run a cable ? I'm big on the kiss principle.

 

[sfx2000]

May or may not be illegal, but could violate the terms and conditions of the broadband provider - worst case there is that they may yank the plug.

But there is a possible issue that could get you into trouble - as the primary account holder - you'd be liable for any, erm, inappropriate, content and behavior that the neighbors do - think media piracy (bittorrernt or other), software piracy, kiddie porn, etc...

And... a distinct lack of privacy across your extended LAN/WLAN if not properly set up...

So it depends on how much you guys trust each other

As for your HW, stuff you have probably isn't up to snuff - you're better off keeping the "bridge net" gear all one vendor... so time to hit up the neighbors for some cash perhaps...

Set up four networks - the primary is the "bridge net" - One main router, three bridge - one for each household - use dedicated SSID/WPA2 passwords - desktops/laptops/tablets, etc... they don't login to this WLAN, instead, they connect to either AP's attached off the bridges, or ethernet ports on the bridges

basically - a hub and spoke network... I wouldn't suggest WDS due to performance and stability issues - they're finicky to set up, and brittle to maintain, and can fall apart in a heartbeat. And WDS cuts your bandwidth in half for every hop...

WLAN1 - the bridge net - it's the backbone and main network
WLAN's 2, 3, 4, 5 are you and your three neighbors

Location is everything in wireless - esp on longer links - basically you have to see the other end - I mean nothing in the direct line of sight - and this goes for both ends of the bridge (and each bridge). This means that Wireless cannot be in the basement...

anyways, you didn't mention what the environment is like - is this an apartment complex or separate homes - and what the expected ranges would be to each neighbor.

First step would be to do the planning - get some paper and write down what your requirements are and draw some pictures (I'm being very serious here) - do this first - once that's done, then you can either repurpose existing HW, or buy the right gear...

quick note - if income is a problem, a number of states actually do have lifeline programs for broadband - might have some restrictions around this, but the lifeline programs provide subsidies that will either cover the cost, or significantly reduce the cost of the broadband access -- this is an extension of the successful Wireless Lifeline programs that we've seen recently for Cellular access

I'm not making any assumptions here, but just bringing it up as a point of interest for the forum

 

[L&LD]

sfx2000,

illegal is definitely the wrong term here. But I'm sure there is no ISP that would allow this to happen. Just not in their best interests ($$$). Depending on how the contract was worded though, a lawsuit may be a possibility.

To not have the cash to have broadband; but, have the cash (assuming) to buy commercial grade equipment to 'borrow it' doesn't sit right.

Can this be done? Easily. Should it? I would say no.

As you mention, there are possible alternatives available to do this right.

 

[sfx2000]

sfx2000,

illegal is definitely the wrong term here. But I'm sure there is no ISP that would allow this to happen. Just not in their best interests ($$$). Depending on how the contract was worded though, a lawsuit may be a possibility.

To not have the cash to have broadband; but, have the cash (assuming) to buy commercial grade equipment to 'borrow it' doesn't sit right.

Can this be done? Easily. Should it? I would say no.

As you mention, there are possible alternatives available to do this right.

We don't know his whole situation - but as you mention, it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

It's a bit like teaching how to pick locks - in the wrong hands, knowledge can enable people to do bad things.

sfx

 

[coop4lyfe]

No, it is not illegal (?!) and the ISP's TOS is not an issue in this particular case based on the service I'm paying for - that's why there's no spare cash; aside from us all not having a lot of money, I clawed out a hole in my budget to pony up for non-consumer service, now I need to deliver in the next few months or give up. We will see; it's an adventure. Right now we are in a test phase, I cannot emphasize this enough.

The first point-to-point link is to a *window* in the basement (and not a deadly triple-pane window, this one is pretty transparent to RF) - the only path clear of foliage. It's about 30 yards with a small amount of foliage in the way.

With the DIR-655 with two of its three antennas as Yagis aimed at the bridge (a currently failing WLAE-AG300N, which is tiny and has internal antennas - test phase), the link is stable when the bridge isn't frozen at a base rate of 26 to 39Mbps and a minimum reliable goodput rate of about 15Mbps. I expect this to improve even with a DIR-615 running OpenWRT to replace the failing bridge, because it's got external, though non-detachable antennas. Once the link is stable we will put antennas on the side of the house at the best line-of-sight point (i.e. right next to the window) but we are not there yet - test phase.

There is no way to run a cable between THESE two houses that doesn't involve digging, sadly. I have a couple neighbors situated such that cables are possible, but they're next - I need to get this working first.

Other odds and ends:

• No way in heck I'm using WDS, you got that right. In the last 2 weeks I've learned exactly how crappy (and how much of a non-standard) it is. A STA-to-Ethernet transparent bridge (which passes broadcast traffic, DHCP etc if needed, or not if not) suffers none of the problems of WDS.
• I prefer to use (which means learning more about) OpenWRT where possible.
• Until we can afford some probably 900MHz Ubiquiti gear, I'm limited to 2.4GHz gear for point-to-point, and I can get a lot of used 802.11n gear for next to nothing, so it's a matter of figuring out what runs OpenWRT or has stock firmware that isn't god-awful, and of finding gear with detachable antennas where directionality is a concern.
• Not having neighbors able to interact with each others' or my home networks is a definite. Currently there are only 2 so this is kludged. The solution will involve VLANing everyone, then their backhaul (wireless or wired) to their house is provided by a VLAN-aware managed switch, of which I have enough lying around from past lives to provide 100Mbps service, which for now is all that's needed on each 'spoke'.

 

[chadster766]

If you are trying to distribute wireless N protocol you must use a special kind of antenna. Link below show some:

MIMO Yagi Antennas

For B and G you can use standard antenna as long as they are for the right frequencies. (2.4 - 5Ghz)

 

[jlake]

We don't know his whole situation - but as you mention, it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

It's a bit like teaching how to pick locks - in the wrong hands, knowledge can enable people to do bad things.

sfx

You mean like the hundreds of people that ask how to setup VPN, or Torrent, Transmission, etc....on this forum? I'm sure there's no illegal activity going on there.

All VPNs, Torrents, Transmission inquiries are for legal, legitimate purposes.

 

[coop4lyfe]

If you are trying to distribute wireless N protocol you must use a special kind of antenna. Link below show some:

MIMO Yagi Antennas

For B and G you can use standard antenna as long as they are for the right frequencies. (2.4 - 5Ghz)

Thanks! I believe I'm getting around this by limiting the 802.11n 'backhaul' links to 2.4GHz and using a single Yagi on each antenna connector, spaced a certain number of inches apart (don't remember off the top of my head, it's something to do with the wavelength obviously). Is that not correct? I'm not using 5GHz for backhaul.

 

[coop4lyfe]

You mean like the hundreds of people that ask how to setup VPN, or Torrent, Transmission, etc....on this forum? I'm sure there's no illegal activity going on there.

All VPNs, Torrents, Transmission inquiries are for legal, legitimate purposes.

lol right? Back when I lived in the city it wasn't uncommon to share wireless and VPN the aggregate traffic to a cheap VPN box somewhere off Comcast's network, at least among techies. But depriving Comcast of potential revenue - heaven forfend!

One of my reasons for attempting this project, aside from being "the tech guy" here and having a little more seed money than anybody else, and being sick of crap service and speed at a 'consumer' level out here, is that I use a lot of outbound bandwidth ... guess what, seeding open source torrents and running a Tor middle relay, both of which ARE 100% legal activities unless and until the US Government in its infinite wisdom decides to declare them otherwise.

I'm well aware of what I'm doing. I give back to the open source community by seeding torrents for Linux install discs, etc. and I run a Tor middle node because I believe it does more good than harm. Betcha can't say that for most of the people asking "how does I torrented Honey Boo Boo" questions.

 

[azazel1024]

Dunno, unless it is against a home owners compact, HOA, local codes or you'd have to go under pavement, I'd still bury cable. 30 yards is nothing. You might pay $100 for some direct bury cable for all your neighbors to do it if they are all within 30 odd yards of you. You can find direct bury cat5e for something like $150 for a 500ft spool.

A heck of a lot simpler to do that and place a router in every home with the WAN port back to your router and then out ot the internet.

Pretty bullet proof and cheaper than all of these bridges and such forth.

Not sure how the Netgear 2000 goes, but the 3500l that I have works pretty danged well. I've only played with bridge mode briefly (because I don't need a wireless bridge), but it seemed to work well. Other than one of my 3500L slowly kicking the bucket and the routing end of it not working, my other 3500L has been rocksteady as a router for the last 4 years and the other one still works great as an access point after 18 months (both were gotten refurb).

 

[coop4lyfe]

Dunno, unless it is against a home owners compact, HOA, local codes or you'd have to go under pavement, I'd still bury cable. 30 yards is nothing. You might pay $100 for some direct bury cable for all your neighbors to do it if they are all within 30 odd yards of you. You can find direct bury cat5e for something like $150 for a 500ft spool.

A heck of a lot simpler to do that and place a router in every home with the WAN port back to your router and then out ot the internet.

Pretty bullet proof and cheaper than all of these bridges and such forth.

Absolutely agree. I picked the house needing wireless first because they were the first interested due to losing free Internet - they had a tenant who WFH and thus got their access free until he moved out. tl;dr: there's pavement in the way, making burying cable a huge pain for this particular link

Not sure how the Netgear 2000 goes, but the 3500l that I have works pretty danged well. I've only played with bridge mode briefly (because I don't need a wireless bridge), but it seemed to work well. Other than one of my 3500L slowly kicking the bucket and the routing end of it not working, my other 3500L has been rocksteady as a router for the last 4 years and the other one still works great as an access point after 18 months (both were gotten refurb).

Cool, thank you for the information. I may try the Netgear WNR2000 v3 with stock firmware just to get them up and running for now. It is allegedly supported by DD-WRT and maybe/dodgily supported by OpenWRT - I think that's a work in progress.