Time machine support when AFP is removed from macOS?

[Panda]

In the recent macOS Sequoia 15.5 update, Apple has deprecated AFP: 'Apple Filing Protocol (AFP) client is deprecated and will be removed in a future version of macOS.'

Currently Time Machine support works only over AFP as Time Machine does not see SMB shares. Is there a plan to support Time Machine over SMB and if, hopefully so, when is it scheduled for, i.e. is it likely to arrive before Apple removes AFP entirely which may happen in macOS 16.

I've been using successfully Time Machine on a USB HD attached to a router running Merlin for many versions of macOS and Merlin. Currently using macOS 15.5 connecting to an Asus RT-AX86U running Merlin 3004.388.9_2. With SMB shares connected in the Finder, if I try to add a disk in Time Machine I get the error message: 'No Available Time Machine Destinations / Connect a suitable external drive or network storage device.'

P.S. As a long time lurker in this forum, I'll take this opportunity to thank everyone here for a useful forum and of course also Merlin which has improved this router for all these years.

 

[bbunge]

Time Machine does use SMB. My Mac uses a share on my NAS and works very well. If you are using your router for Time Machine you may have to reconfigure your Mac to use a SMB share.

 

[sfx2000]

TM does require SMB2 or higher to use a share provided by Samba...

Even on the old school TimeCapsule 11ac devices, they support SMB first, then AFP for older clients...

Apple has been deprecating AFP for a long time now - the recent item in the MacOS 15.5 release notes is just stating that the "walkway is nearing it's end, please watch your step"

With SMB shares connected in the Finder, if I try to add a disk in Time Machine I get the error message: 'No Available Time Machine Destinations / Connect a suitable external drive or network storage device.'

@Panda - you don't need to mount the shares first before attaching TM - so unmount them, and try again, it should just work - if the share has user credentials, you should be prompted...

Anyways - TM over the network - the best host there is another Mac, and that Mac can have a USB (or thunderbolt) drive attached.

 

[Panda]

you don't need to mount the shares first before attaching TM - so unmount them, and try again, it should just work - if the share has user credentials, you should be prompted...

Unfortunately Time Machine does not see any SMB share, whether mounted or unmounted.

My Mac uses a share on my NAS and works very well

Your NAS is likely using a different implementation of SMB as that of Asus/Merlin.

I found a very old guide, from 2016, listing requirements Apple has for SMB to work with Time Machine: Time Machine over SMB Specification and a much more recent guide about SMB configuration on Debian to work with Time Machine: Ultimate Guide to Configuring Samba for Time Machine Backups on Debian Servers. I don't know enough about SMB to understand if the Asus/Merlin implementation of SMB is compatible with Apple's requirements and some further configuration is needed or whether there would need to be a rewrite of the SMB implementation.

 

[JimbobJay]

I run OpenMediaVault on a raspberrypi, and do TimeMachine backups to its SMB share.
In OMV's settings menu for SMB shares, there's an explicit checkbox to enable TimeMachine support.

I have never known what precisely that does behind the scenes, but clearly TimeMachine is picky about which types of SMB shares it will allow to be chosen as a destination, so Asuswrt-Merlin will require changes if TimeMachine support is going to continue.

 

[bennor]

@Panda, stupid question time. Have you enabled the Time Machine option in the Asus router GUI, and selected a target backup location?

Links to the Asus support documents:

[Wireless Router] How to enable Time Machine feature on ASUS Router? | Official Support | ASUS Global

[Wireless Router] Time Machine FAQ | Official Support | ASUS Global

 

[JimbobJay]

@Panda, stupid question time. Have you enabled the Time Machine option in the Asus router GUI, and selected a target backup location?

Links to the Asus support documents:

[Wireless Router] How to enable Time Machine feature on ASUS Router? | Official Support | ASUS Global

[Wireless Router] Time Machine FAQ | Official Support | ASUS Global

I believe they already have Time Machine enabled and working on their router. Their question is whether it will continue to work in the future, now that macOS are deprecating AFP support (which is the file sharing protocol Asuswrt currently uses to enable Time Machine support).

 

[Panda]

stupid question time. Have you enabled the Time Machine option in the Asus router GUI, and selected a target backup location?

Yes. However it's using AFP. (There are no stupid questions!)

Their question is whether it will continue to work in the future, now that macOS are deprecating AFP support.

Indeed.

 

[bennor]

Yes. However it's using AFP. (There are no stupid questions!)

Your question is likely best directed at @RMerlin to see if he has any suggestions or information. Don't know if the Time Machine service is closed source from Asus. If it is, it would be up to Asus to address any problems with the Time Machine service.

From the Asus-Merlin 3004.388 blob:

asuswrt-merlin.ng/release/src/router/rc/timemachine.c at 3004.388 · RMerl/asuswrt-merlin.ng

Third party firmware for Asus routers (newer codebase) - RMerl/asuswrt-merlin.ng

github.com

Maybe have a look at the afp.conf and avahi-daemon.conf files to see if anything can be enabled or changed with respect to SMB.

And as a troubleshooting step, if one hasn't tried it already, try using a different Mac computer and see if the issue persists with that Mac computer.

But at the end of the day, the router makes a poor NAS. Might be time to consider either investing in a dedicated NAS, one that has better Time Machine support, or consider investing in a external hard drive for direct attachment to the Mac computer(s) for direct Time Machine backup.

 

[visortgw]

Your question is likely best directed at @RMerlin to see if he has any suggestions or information. Don't know if the Time Machine service is closed source from Asus. If it is, it would be up to Asus to address any problems with the Time Machine service.

From the Asus-Merlin 3004.388 blob:

asuswrt-merlin.ng/release/src/router/rc/timemachine.c at 3004.388 · RMerl/asuswrt-merlin.ng

Third party firmware for Asus routers (newer codebase) - RMerl/asuswrt-merlin.ng

github.com

Maybe have a look at the afp.conf and avahi-daemon.conf files to see if anything can be enabled or changed with respect to SMB.

And as a troubleshooting step, if one hasn't tried it already, try using a different Mac computer and see if the issue persists with that Mac computer.

But at the end of the day, the router makes a poor NAS. Might be time to consider either investing in a dedicated NAS, one that has better Time Machine support, or consider investing in a external hard drive for direct attachment to the Mac computer(s) for direct Time Machine backup.

Something as simple as Synology BeeStation would be a much better, more robust, simpler solution for Time Machine backups.

 

[Panda]

Your question is likely best directed at @RMerlin to see if he has any suggestions or information.

Thanks. If this thread goes nowhere I might DM RMerlin but will not inconvenience him at the moment as although I find this an important issue it is not urgent.

Don't know if the Time Machine service is closed source from Asus. If it is, it would be up to Asus to address any problems with the Time Machine service.

My understanding is that this has nothing to do with the Time Machine service as that seems to be about supporting AFP. The github repo you linked to has three SMB related directories: samba-3.5.8, samba-3.6.x_opwrt and sambaclient. Any needed work is likely to be for files in one or several of these.

And as a troubleshooting step, if one hasn't tried it already, try using a different Mac computer and see if the issue persists with that Mac computer.

Same.

But at the end of the day, the router makes a poor NAS. Might be time to consider either investing in a dedicated NAS, one that has better Time Machine support, or consider investing in a external hard drive for direct attachment to the Mac computer(s) for direct Time Machine backup.

Something as simple as Synology BeeStation would be a much better, more robust, simpler solution for Time Machine backups.

Sure. I can disconnect the HD I have connected to the router, reformat it and move it around to each laptop or buy another Mac or a NAS, this might be better but that's not the point. Time Machine over AFP using the router with Merlin's software has been reliable enough so far for my use case and likely for many others too. There has been a 'good enough' solution so far. A solution using SMB might be even better as SMB is a more recent and likely better protocol than AFP, but at least the continued existence of a good enough solution would be helpful to many including me.

I started this thread for two main reasons: ensuring that others using the same set up are aware it will likely no longer work when macOS 16 is released and as there's already some SMB support in Asus/Merlin it would be great to find out from those (more) knowledgeable about SMB whether the existing firmware might be configured to support whatever set up Time Machine requires for SMB or whether considering the announced planned demise of AFP (in macOS) whether whatever changes might be needed to the SMB code so that it supports Time Machine may be planned for a timely release.

 

[sfx2000]

TM has been discussed many times on the forums, and we know it works (sort of, actually most of the time)

 

[sfx2000]

And another source - very good info there...

Time Machine – The Eclectic Light Company

Posts about Time Machine written by hoakley

eclecticlight.co

 

[JimbobJay]

And another source - very good info there...

Time Machine – The Eclectic Light Company

Posts about Time Machine written by hoakley

eclecticlight.co

Beat me to it! I just opened the thread with that link literally in my clipboard already, ready to paste!
Indeed, a very good write-up

 

[sfx2000]

In the recent macOS Sequoia 15.5 update, Apple has deprecated AFP: 'Apple Filing Protocol (AFP) client is deprecated and will be removed in a future version of macOS.'

Good write up that is very urbane to OP's first post in this thread...

Check your network backups and shares, as AFP is being removed

Are you prepared for the removal of support for AFP in a ‘future version of macOS’? Here’s what you need to know, and what you should consider doing.

eclecticlight.co

TLDR

Summary​

• A future version of macOS will no longer support AFP, but it’s not being removed from current or past versions of macOS.
• AFP could well be dropped from macOS 16 due for release later this year.
• Time Capsules only support AFP and version 1 of SMB, so need to be replaced.
• Older NAS that can’t support SMB 3 should also be replaced.

 

[iTyPsIDg]

@Panda - I understand your situation and have a similar one. Mine is still working on my RT-AX86U running firmware 3004.388.9_2.

I use these Wireless settings to help with stability.

This is how I configured TimeMachine on my Macbook Pro MacOS 15.5.

 

[Panda]

Thanks to the pointers by @iTyPsIDg I now have my first backup over SMB going on.

It took me several attempts to get there as there are a few gotchas. Key ones are that the disk image must be created locally and then copied to the SMB share, and the disk image can't be added via the Time Machine dialog.

Here are the main steps that worked:

1) Create a new disk image in Disk Utility
Call it for instance ‘tm’
The size obviously needs to be bigger than what needs to be saved. I’m not sure how to choose the best size. I’ve set it to twice the amount of data I currently have.
Change the format to ‘sparse bundle disk image’
Set the encryption to 256-bit AES

Important: save it to the local hard disk, e.g., Desktop as if you save it directly to the SMB share it’ll fail.

Weirdly if you check in Disk Utility (Get Info) it’ll state that the image is unencrypted, however the following command
hdiutil isencrypted /Users/user/Desktop/tm.dmg
will show it as encrypted.

2) Move the image to the share. Open it and save its password.

3) Time Machine doesn’t see it, however you can add it with this command:
sudo tmutil setdestination /Volumes/tm/

4) Start your new Time Machine backup (preferably while physically connected to the router over Ethernet).

When that first back up is completed, I'll check the minimum needed for it to work automatically and there are good tips about this again in @iTyPsIDg earlier posts.

So it looks like I was wrong in suggesting that Time Machine backups over SMB are not supported. They're not supported from the GUI of Time Machine but they're possible with the current firmware which is a good news. Of course for better reliability you may opt out to purchase another Mac or a NAS, but it's possible *currently* to do Time Machine backups over SMB to a disk connected to an Asus router.

 

[Panda]

To get the share re-mounted and the sparse bundle re-opened for Time Machine to do its thing, I tried some mix of Automator and launch agent but didn't get that right. I then tried ConnectMeNow and that is doing the trick so far. (I found this software as free alternative of AutoMounter which was recommended by Eric Park.)

In ConnectMeNow, I used the IP address of the Asus router for the 'Server address', the share for the 'Path'. In the Advanced tab, I selected 'Auto Mount' 'On Network Change' 'but only if Default Gateway MAC is:' <MAC of the router> and I 'Run a script after mount' which is:
sleep 5; open /Volumes/<share name>/<sparse bundle name>.dmg.sparsebundle/

Hopefully some of this post and the one above may help others with the same concern. I get the feeling that Time Machine over SMB is faster than over AFP too, but I didn't do any measurement so this may prove not to be the case.

Edit: added the sleep 5 command. See post further below for more on this change and another.

 

[Panda]

Of course there's still scope for Asus/Merlin (not sure which piece of software implements support for SMB) to make it as easy to use Time Machine over SMB than it currently is over AFP, but in the meantime those keen to get it to work can without any additional hardware (apart from a connected disk obviously).

 

[iTyPsIDg]

I just upgraded to the RT-AX86U Pro and 3006. My SMB was pegging one CPU for well over an hour and not allowing me to connect. Because of this, I looked into setting up Samba4 from Entware (version 4.18.8). I got it to work, and now I'm trying to set up better TimeMachine broadcasting (avoid sparsefiles). Once I get all of it working, I'll post what I did in case you want to try it on 3004 with the non-Pro model.