Townhouse wifi coverage advice

[neonJZA]

Hey everyone, was hoping you guys could provide me with a recommendation for a good router to use to cover my town home.

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I currently have gigafiber from AT&T and the gateway they use was terrible. 5ghz band kept dropping even if we were right next to the unit. I went out and bought an Asus AC3100. While I'm happy, it's not quite performing the way I had hoped. I can be right next to the router on my iPhone XS and get only 200mbps on the 5ghz band. Overall, the speeds can change by 100-300 mbps depending on when I run the speed test. They're just super inconsistent. My other problem is not having the best signal strength on the third floor. Is there a different route I should take and return the Asus? I'm not too concerned with cost, as I just want a great performing router with good coverage.

Thank you everyone for your time.

 

[Greg72]

I have the RT-ac68u sitting in my back office and it does fine. The house is a bit larger per the Basement and first, with second floor smaller. Your speeds will vary on each floor if only using one Wireless Access Point. I would do wired AP's (That means set two in Access Point mode if you are able to use the Router behind ATT's equipment. If not, you will have to place all three in Access Point mode.), with one on each floor. Personally I would do POE (Power Over Ethernet) for the equipment with home runs from a central point to each Access Point mounted either on a wall or ceiling if you can do the later.

 

[neonJZA]

I have the RT-ac68u sitting in my back office and it does fine. The house is a bit larger per the Basement and first, with second floor smaller. Your speeds will vary on each floor if only using one Wireless Access Point. I would do wired AP's (That means set two in Access Point mode if you are able to use the Router behind ATT's equipment. If not, you will have to place all three in Access Point mode.), with one on each floor. Personally I would do POE (Power Over Ethernet) for the equipment with home runs from a central point to each Access Point mounted either on a wall or ceiling if you can do the later.

Thank you for the reply. I'm still relatively new to networking, so I'm trying to understand what you mean.
My main problem is the builder never thought to put a cat5 drop in my office, which is the first floor bedroom. I'm stuck with wifi because of this. I currently have the Asus AC3100 behind the AT&T modem, just configured for IP passthrough since they don't know have the option to bridge. This works fine. Are you saying purchase another router and set it to access point mode? Will this act as an extender, or should I theoretically get the same speed I would if I was next to the router that's plugged into the modem? I don't quite understand the difference between extending and repeating. As far as I understand, one just gives you coverage but with a weak signal from the original router, and the other actually repeats the signal of the original router with full strength? If this is the case, my ultimate goal would be to put an access point in my office on the first floor and run a cat5 from the access point to the back of my desktop, so I don't have to use wifi. Is this possible?

 

[Trip]

I know this might seem at first like total overkill, but if you want to make sure this is done right the first time and money is of little to no issue, I would first ask if you're open to hiring a high-end residential AV/networking outfit to handle all of this for you. They will ensure a solution crafted to your performance goals, and will (should, anyways) just handle everything to get you there, including a wireless site survey of the house and any special engineering solutions potentially needed for a top-of-the-line wired+wireless network, which is what you want as your first option. Typical cost for something of your size and probable requirements in my area would be $3K to $7K, depending on how many cable runs and APs are needed, plus switching, gateway/router and labor. Depending on perceived value and the availability of quality shops in your area, it could be a no-brainer.

If that's out of the question and DIY is the order of the day, then I would bypass trying to run disparate routers-as-APs, even forgoing stuff like Asus AiMesh (which could probably be made to work) and just do a purpose-built, whole-house wifi product like Netgear Orbi, specifically the RBK50 kit (1 base unit + 1 satellite), connecting the base unit to the AT&T modem on the basement/first floor, then put the satellite on the top floor. Orbi is arguably the best option for a multi-AP solution yielding top throughput combined with ease-of-use, and it can be backhauled by wire (ie. connected to the base unit by ethernet cable) or wirelessly from AP-to-AP as a true mesh. Another option for creating more of your own wired backhaul is to use MoCa 2.0 or 2.5 adapters over coaxial TV cable, if you have any runs in the house that go from the router location to an ideal spot upstairs for a second AP.

Interested to see how you respond to either of those ideas.

 

[neonJZA]

If you want to make sure this is done right the first time and money is of little to no issue, I would first ask if you're open to hiring a high-end residential AV/networking outfit to handle all of this for you. They will ensure a solution crafted to your performance goals, and will (should, anyways) just handle everything to get you there, including a wireless site survey of the house and any special engineering solutions potentially needed for a top-of-the-line wired+wireless network, which is what you want as your first option. Typical cost for something of your size and probable requirements in my area would be $3K to $7K, depending on how many cable runs and APs are needed, plus switching, gateway/router and labor. Depending on perceived value and the availability of quality shops in your area, it could be a no-brainer.

If that's out of the question and DIY is the order of the day, then I would bypass trying to run disparate routers-as-APs, even forgoing stuff like Asus AiMesh (which could probably be made to work) and just do a purpose-built, whole-house wifi product like Netgear Orbi, specifically the RBK50 kit (1 base unit + 1 satellite), connecting the base unit to the AT&T modem on the basement/first floor, then put the satellite on the top floor. Orbi is arguably the best option for a multi-AP solution yielding top throughput combined with ease-of-use, and it can be run via wired backhaul (ie. connected to the home unit via ethernet cable, if you can get the satellite to an ethernet jack upstairs) or backhauled wirelessly as a true mesh. Another option for creating more of your own backhaul is to use MoCa 2.0 or 2.5 adapters over coaxial TV cable, if you have any runs in the house that go from the router location to an ideal spot upstairs for a second AP.

Interested to see how you respond to either of those ideas.

I think the first idea will be the route I take when I have my home built. For now though I don't want to invest in something like that where I'm only living for two years.
The second option was actually what I was originally planning. One thing I don't understand, however, is how to place the Orbi properly. This is my current setup:

Third floor: no APs
Second floor: AT&T modem with Asus RT-AC3100 behind it
First floor: no APs

Are you saying replace the Asus RT-AC3100 with the Orbi, and then put a satellite unit on another floor?
If I want to get the closest to hardwired experience on my desktop on the first floor, could I put the satellite unit on the first floor and run a cat5 to my desktop? In this situation, it sounds like I may need two satellites, one for the first floor and one for the third floor. The third floor is less important, however. First floor is where my desktop is, and I want a great connection there.

 

[Val D.]

I currently have gigafiber from AT&T

Keep in mind no matter how many access points you install and no matter how expensive they are, your typical 2x2 AC client device won't be able to get more than 350-400Mbps in close to ideal conditions. For more you'll need 3x3 or 4x4 access points and corresponding 3x3 or 4x4 clients. The only sure way to see close to Gigabit connection speeds to your clients is to go wired. Higher Internet speed is not exactly "wasted" though, because only two 2x2 AC clients connected to different access points may pull 700-800Mbps at the router. It is difficult and expensive to send Gigabit speeds to a single wireless client, but it is not really necessary.

 

[neonJZA]

Keep in mind no matter how many access points you install and no matter how expensive they are, your typical 2x2 AC client device won't be able to get more than 350-400Mbps in close to ideal conditions. For more you'll need 3x3 or 4x4 access points and corresponding 3x3 or 4x4 clients. The only sure way to see close to Gigabit connection speeds to your clients is to go wired. Higher Internet speed is not exactly "wasted" though, because only two 2x2 AC clients connected to different access points may pull 700-800Mbps at the router. It is difficult and expensive to send Gigabit speeds to a single wireless client, but it is not really necessary.

I do understand this, I’m not necessarily looking for gigabit WiFi speeds, I’m more or less looking for better than 200mbps on my 5ghz band, especially because my devices I care about are capable of it, notably my desktop PC, our Apple TV, and our iPhone XS’s and iPad Pros. I’ve gotten over 200 mbps on all these devices when I lived in my apartment, so I know it’s possible.

 

[Val D.]

I know it’s possible.

Yes, it is possible indeed, but only if the WiFi channel is not busy and the clients are close to the router.

 

[neonJZA]

Yes, it is possible indeed, but only if the WiFi channel is not busy and the clients are close to the router.

So would Trip's recommendation work then?

 

[Trip]

@neonJZA - Understood regarding living plans; DIY is best for now. Regarding setup of replacement wifi, I apologize I wasn't clear on which floor the router was on. So yes, you'd potentially want an RBK53 kit (1 base + 2 satellites), putting the base unit on the 2nd floor and 1 satellite each on the 1st floor and 3rd floor. However, you might end up with too much co-interference between APs, and I'm not sure Orbi has the intelligence to automatically (or even manually) adjust it's broadcast strength. So you may want to start with just the base and 1 satellite, test for speed and coverage, then deploy the second satellite and retest.

Regarding replacing the AC3100 with the Orbi base unit, that is probably best, for a few reasons: 1) the Orbi comes preset in "router mode", so setup is generally easiest for novices by sticking with the default, 2) removal of the all-in-one will keep your airspace as unpolluted as possible and 3) you'd have your AC3100 offline, at the ready with all settings preserved, to return to service if you don't see enough benefits from Orbi to deem it worth keeping.

With your desktop, I would definitely try to wire that in if you can. If you're trying to be discrete with the cable run, you might look at some white, flat Cat6 cable, which can often be hidden under moldings/carpeting, or do regular Cat6 inside a low-profile raceway. Also, the more APs (satellites) you can wire in, the better, as that will allow for the fastest and lowest-latency backhaul possible.

One last point, per @Val D. 's comment, you can of course only expect so much throughput per client and total simultaneous bandwidth per radio. That being the case, I think with some smart trial-and-error testing, it won't take too long to see the benefits of Orbi, if there are any.

 

[neonJZA]

@neonJZA - Understood regarding living plans; DIY is best for now. Regarding setup of replacement wifi, I apologize I wasn't clear on which floor the router was on. So yes, you'd potentially want an RBK53 kit (1 base + 2 satellites), putting the base unit on the 2nd floor and 1 satellite each on the 1st floor and 3rd floor. However, you might end up with too much co-interference between APs, and I'm not sure Orbi has the intelligence to automatically (or even manually) adjust it's broadcast strength. So you may want to start with just the base and 1 satellite, test for speed and coverage, then deploy the second satellite and retest.

Regarding replacing the AC3100 with the Orbi base unit, that is probably best, for a few reasons: 1) the Orbi comes preset in "router mode", so setup is generally easiest for novices by sticking with the default, 2) removal of the all-in-one will keep your airspace as unpolluted as possible and 3) you'd have your AC3100 offline, at the ready with all settings preserved, to return to service if you don't see enough benefits from Orbi to deem it worth keeping.

With your desktop, I would definitely try to wire that in if you can. If you're trying to be discrete with the cable run, you might look at some white, flat Cat6 cable, which can often be hidden under moldings/carpeting, or do regular Cat6 inside a low-profile raceway. Also, the more APs (satellites) you can wire in, the better, as that will allow for the fastest and lowest-latency backhaul possible.

One last point, per @Val D. 's comment, you can of course only expect so much throughput per client and total simultaneous bandwidth per radio. That being the case, I think with some smart trial-and-error testing, it won't take too long to see the benefits of Orbi, if there are any.

Trip, thanks for the detailed reply. I just had an idea... I've read on these forums about people using the 86u as the base router instead of the ac3100, as it's apparently newer with a better CPU and gave them better more consistent speeds. Could I buy one, use that behind my AT&T modem, and put the AC3100 as my second mesh node in my office? I will try to run a cable somehow, even if it's ugly and out my window. I'm going to do whatever I can to fully utilize the gigabit service I'm paying for.

 

[Trip]

That is certainly an option as well. If you go that route, make sure to flash both with Merlin for maximum stability, then turn on AiMesh on both units, and lastly wire-in the AC3100 to the AC86U (right next to it) and confirm the AC3100 as a remote node and save all settings on both units, before disconnecting the AC3100 to place it in your office. Also, wiring in the AC3100 will definitely improve wireless performance for all clients.

The main things you'd be giving up by going with AiMesh would be possibly less wireless backhaul speed and possibly less wireless roaming smoothness, but much of that depends on the state of AsusWRT/Merlin code, both of which I am not familiar with, as I don't run Asus gear myself. Orbi would likely offer faster wireless backhaul (remedied by wiring in your AC3100) and potentially better wifi client roaming, but it's not immune to bugs either, and has shared some of the same core route/switch/services bugs that have crept up in some of the Nighthawk products.

All in all, I think you'd gain performance going either route, perhaps slightly more so with Orbi, but hard to determine by how much, if any margin at all.

Hope that helps!

 

[coxhaus]

I hope you are not a gamer as using wireless for your backhaul is going to add latency to your connection. Wire is always best and fastest, but wireless will work.

 

[Val D.]

I've read on these forums about people using the 86u as the base router instead of the ac3100

I would return the RT-AC3100 router, get 2 x RT-AC86U routers and use them after in the new house also. One as a router and one as a wired access point. Those are super powerful 4x4 AC routers up to 1733Mbps with excellent coverage. Wired ASUS AiMesh works well also and is easy to setup and maintain. Netgear Orbi may be a good user-friendly mesh system, but offers 2x2 AC only to clients, i.e. limited to 866Mbps max. Netgear Orbi is actually more expensive... and is not supported by Asuswrt-Merlin.

 

[neonJZA]

I would return the RT-AC3100 router, get 2 x RT-AC86U routers and use them after in the new house also. One as a router and one as a wired access point. Those are super powerful 4x4 AC routers up to 1733Mbps with excellent coverage. Wired ASUS AiMesh works well also and is easy to setup and maintain. Netgear Orbi may be a good user-friendly mesh system, but offers 2x2 AC only to clients, i.e. limited to 866Mbps max. Netgear Orbi is actually more expensive... and is not supported by Asuswrt-Merlin.

Alright I think I'll be doing that. When you say wired AiMesh, do you mean running a cat6 from the first AC86U to the second? That might not be possible for me unfortunately, as I don't have any kind of connection drops in my office.

 

[neonJZA]

That is certainly an option as well. If you go that route, make sure to flash both with Merlin for maximum stability, then turn on AiMesh on both units, and lastly wire-in the AC3100 to the AC86U (right next to it) and confirm the AC3100 as a remote node and save all settings on both units, before disconnecting the AC3100 to place it in your office. Also, wiring in the AC3100 will definitely improve wireless performance for all clients.

The main things you'd be giving up by going with AiMesh would be possibly less wireless backhaul speed and possibly less wireless roaming smoothness, but much of that depends on the state of AsusWRT/Merlin code, both of which I am not familiar with, as I don't run Asus gear myself. Orbi would likely offer faster wireless backhaul (remedied by wiring in your AC3100) and potentially better wifi client roaming, but it's not immune to bugs either, and has shared some of the same core route/switch/services bugs that have crept up in some of the Nighthawk products.

All in all, I think you'd gain performance going either route, perhaps slightly more so with Orbi, but hard to determine by how much, if any margin at all.

Hope that helps!

As always you give me very detailed replies, thank you very much Trip. I think I'm going to go with Val's recommendation and swap my 3100 for the 86U. I didn't realize the 3100 was from 2015! I also didn't realize the backhaul would increase my latency for gaming, that's definitely a negative side effect. As of now I have a cat 6 run through my windows until I get this networking guy out here to see if we can somehow hack a drop into my office.

 

[Trip]

Awesome. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out!

 

[neonJZA]

Thanks everyone for your tremendous help. I really appreciate it.

 

[Val D.]

Alright I think I'll be doing that. When you say wired AiMesh, do you mean running a cat6 from the first AC86U to the second? That might not be possible for me unfortunately, as I don't have any kind of connection drops in my office.

Yes, wired routers, one as a router and one as a node. But use what you have for now, you live in this townhouse temporary anyway. Just as an idea - is it possible to put the node inside your office? Is it going to be an acceptable location? Because you can use the wireless link between the routers much better if you plug in your computer to the node. I believe the LAN ports on the node work in AiMesh configuration. This way you'll skip the second hop WiFi and get really decent speeds to your computer. I use something similar, but in form of media bridge. I have 2 computers wired to the media bridge and it holds 1300Mbps link to the main router. I'm getting 600Mbps throughput between the two parts of the network through the WiFi link. We are talking about HDD read/write speeds here across the network, should be enough.

 

[neonJZA]

Yes, wired routers, one as a router and one as a node. But use what you have for now, you live in this townhouse temporary anyway. Just as an idea - is it possible to put the node inside your office? Is it going to be an acceptable location? Because you can use the wireless link between the routers much better if you plug in your computer to the node. I believe the LAN ports on the node work in AiMesh configuration. This way you'll skip the second hop WiFi and get really decent speeds to your computer. I use something similar, but in form of media bridge. I have 2 computers wired to the media bridge and it holds 1300Mbps link to the main router. I'm getting 600Mbps throughput between the two parts of the network through the WiFi link. We are talking about HDD read/write speeds here across the network, should be enough.

So you mean...
AT&T Modem > Router ~~~ wireless ~~~ Node > PC

Meaning the node is only receiving the connection from the router wirelessly, but I then plug my PC into the node.
This was my original thought actually.

Also, I was at costco yesterday and saw their costco exclusive nighthawk x6s 7960p for $140, I bought it for the hell of it to see how it performed vs the 3100. It's definitely better, the speeds are better and the range is better too. Now I'm just wondering if the 86u would outperform the 7960p (costco exclusive).

I've also considered going with Ubiquiti's mesh setup, as it seems like Ubiquiti's products are pretty highly regarded. I'm not sure thought how the Ubiquiti router + mesh system performs against say the Orbi.