Trying to get my IPTV working with Asus RT-AX86U

[Mb11]

I'm new to networking and all this magic you are all very well familiar with, so please bear with me.

I just switched my ISP and got from an old coax to fiber. I received ISP's modem/router and I have RT-AX86U router which I used as a main router with my previous ISP, and one less capable RT-AX68U backhauled as AP. I want to use the same setup now, but I have some difficulties setting this up.

We have 3 different TV users in my house and until now each of them used STB hooked on coax cable and that was just fine as it bypassed modem. Since I switched to fiber, new STBs supposedly require tagged and untagged VLAN. This is where the problem occurs: I cannot get my RT-AX86U to set VLAN. If there was some "GUI" how to do, I would at least give it a try, but there is absolutely no option to set it - not even in Merlin.
What I'm left with now is:
1. Modem that works as a router.
2. RT-AX86U connected to Modem LAN1 as AP1.
3. RT-AX68U connected to modem LAN2 as AP2.
3. 1st STB Connected to Modem LAN3.
4. 2nd STB connected to modem LAN4.
5. 3rd STB currently not connected to anything, as I have run out of modem ports.

What I'm testing now is whether STBs work any better connected directly to Modem rather than through AP via UTP.

I have some concerns though...
I could put another switch after modem and connect all 3 STBs to that dumb switch. However, this would still leave me with ISPs modem working as main router? If I put modem in bridge mode, establish PPPoE session on my RT-AX86U, could I still connect STB's directly to modem, or would they no longer work? (remember, STBs require untagged and tagged VLAN to work (Tv+internet)). Is there any downsides keeping my ISPs modem as main router, other than wasting 2 "not-so-cheap" routers as access points? I would definitely prefer using my own router (RT-AX86U), however I haven't found a very noob friendly guide how to enable VLAN on this router.

Any suggestions, recommendations or other comments would be very well appreciated.

 

[ColinTaylor]

LAN > IPTV

Asus only supports VLANs for IPTV boxes on a dedicated LAN port.

 

[drinkingbird]

I'm new to networking and all this magic you are all very well familiar with, so please bear with me.

I just switched my ISP and got from an old coax to fiber. I received ISP's modem/router and I have RT-AX86U router which I used as a main router with my previous ISP, and one less capable RT-AX68U backhauled as AP. I want to use the same setup now, but I have some difficulties setting this up.

We have 3 different TV users in my house and until now each of them used STB hooked on coax cable and that was just fine as it bypassed modem. Since I switched to fiber, new STBs supposedly require tagged and untagged VLAN. This is where the problem occurs: I cannot get my RT-AX86U to set VLAN. If there was some "GUI" how to do, I would at least give it a try, but there is absolutely no option to set it - not even in Merlin.
What I'm left with now is:
1. Modem that works as a router.
2. RT-AX86U connected to Modem LAN1 as AP1.
3. RT-AX68U connected to modem LAN2 as AP2.
3. 1st STB Connected to Modem LAN3.
4. 2nd STB connected to modem LAN4.
5. 3rd STB currently not connected to anything, as I have run out of modem ports.

What I'm testing now is whether STBs work any better connected directly to Modem rather than through AP via UTP.

I have some concerns though...
I could put another switch after modem and connect all 3 STBs to that dumb switch. However, this would still leave me with ISPs modem working as main router? If I put modem in bridge mode, establish PPPoE session on my RT-AX86U, could I still connect STB's directly to modem, or would they no longer work? (remember, STBs require untagged and tagged VLAN to work (Tv+internet)). Is there any downsides keeping my ISPs modem as main router, other than wasting 2 "not-so-cheap" routers as access points? I would definitely prefer using my own router (RT-AX86U), however I haven't found a very noob friendly guide how to enable VLAN on this router.

Any suggestions, recommendations or other comments would be very well appreciated.

Many dumb switches will not pass VLANs so you'd have to either find one that does (essentially violating the spec) or get a smart switch and figure out what VLANs your ISP is using.

But have you gone into the LAN -> IPTV settings on the router and set it up? You will need to find out what VLANs and settings your ISP requires. Typically this is used for connecting directly to ISP modem or ONT but it should work off their router LAN too.

The STBs won't work via AP/wireless as it won't pass the VLANs (assuming the ISP is in fact passing VLAN tags from the modem LAN ports). Hardwired will be better anyway. Or do you mean just using the switch on the asus to pass the traffic from wired to wired? That likely will not work since the switch in the Asus is VLAN aware and will drop VLANs not configured on the port. You would have to get into scripting on the asus and enable those vlans on the ports (which isn't all that hard).

I don't believe the IPTV screen/configs are available in AP mode, you'd have to run it in router mode. Then you could configure the VLAN off 1 or 2 ports to feed to the STBs.

Another option is to chain the second asus off the first asus (keeping them both in AP mode for data only), freeing up another modem port for that STB. Additional latency will be tiny. They will share a 1G link back to the modem but unless your internet service is over a gig that shouldn't matter.

 

[Mb11]

Many thanks for such detailed reply, much appreciated.

Many dumb switches will not pass VLANs so you'd have to either find one that does (essentially violating the spec) or get a smart switch and figure out what VLANs your ISP is using.

This is where I have difficulties with comprehension. I was told by multiple users being on the same ISP as me, that dumb switch should let VLANs pass through and that it works for most of the users. That is, installing it right after modem and connecting STBs to this dumb switch. Like I said, I'm really an amateur on this topic, but I read many different replies which makes it a little bit confusing.

But have you gone into the LAN -> IPTV settings on the router and set it up? You will need to find out what VLANs and settings your ISP requires. Typically this is used for connecting directly to ISP modem or ONT but it should work off their router LAN too.

Yes, I have tried that, however as discussed with different users using the same ISP, this doesn't work setting it up in LAN->IPTV. My ISP is supposedly using (and now I'm translating quote from other users) "For watching "catch-up" TV STBs use internet stream (VLAN1) and VLAN3999 for watching Live-TV"

The STBs won't work via AP/wireless as it won't pass the VLANs (assuming the ISP is in fact passing VLAN tags from the modem LAN ports). Hardwired will be better anyway. Or do you mean just using the switch on the asus to pass the traffic from wired to wired? That likely will not work since the switch in the Asus is VLAN aware and will drop VLANs not configured on the port. You would have to get into scripting on the asus and enable those vlans on the ports (which isn't all that hard).

I meant using the "switch on the Asus". I connected AP (RT-AX86U) to modem, and then connected my STB to AP (RT-AX86U) with ethernet cable. I tested this and it work, as long as RT-AX86U was set in AP mode. In router mode this doesn't work. To my understanding, because it cannot handle VLANs or in other words supposedly "doesn't know what to do with them"? Anyway, I tested this and found that STBs were kind of laggy when changing channels or sometimes froze for a second when watching catch-up programme (not really sure what's the correct english word for watching shows after they have been broadcast). Due to this reason I plugged STB directly to modem to see whether the STBs are laggy, or AP between modem and STB is causing the problem.

I don't believe the IPTV screen/configs are available in AP mode, you'd have to run it in router mode. Then you could configure the VLAN off 1 or 2 ports to feed to the STBs.

For now, as said, STBs do work when connected to AP with ethernet cable, but like I said in paragraph above, I'm not sure whether it works as intended. Ideally I would want to put my main RT-AX86U in router mode and let it do its magic with VLANs, but I haven't found any good source on how to do it on my RT-AX86U (or I'm missing comprehension on posted tutorials)

Another option is to chain the second asus off the first asus (keeping them both in AP mode for data only), freeing up another modem port for that STB. Additional latency will be tiny. They will share a 1G link back to the modem but unless your internet service is over a gig that shouldn't matter.

If dumb switch really does work as "letting everything through the ports" I would just place one dumb switch after the modem and then connect all the STBs to that dumb switch. This way I would free some modem ports.

 

[r3ll]

Can You draw Your network?
most probably now it looks something like this:
Gpon ONT -> modem/router from Orange -> Asus -> STB
This way it will work as long as the asus is not set to the router mode.
Try readin this threads (in polish, sorry!)

Orange FTTH Triple Play na własnym sprzęcie - Trzepak.pl

https://www.hejdom.pl/blog/28-smart-rozwiazania/321-swiatlowod-orange-i-wlasny-router-ont.html

 

[drinkingbird]

Many thanks for such detailed reply, much appreciated.

This is where I have difficulties with comprehension. I was told by multiple users being on the same ISP as me, that dumb switch should let VLANs pass through and that it works for most of the users. That is, installing it right after modem and connecting STBs to this dumb switch. Like I said, I'm really an amateur on this topic, but I read many different replies which makes it a little bit confusing.

Dumb switches passing VLANs is a bit of a crapshoot. Technically, ones that follow the ethernet spec correctly should not pass them (they are a totally different "ethertype" than normal frames). However, I will say that now that most switches support jumbo frames, it is more likely it will pass the VLAN tags (the main issue was tagged packets are 4 bytes larger and switches without jumbo support would drop them) but some will still see it at a malformed frame and drop it. Given that you can get a "smart managed" switch with VLAN support for $20 to $30 (netgear and tp link both have them in this range) that may be the way to go, especially if you know which VLANs need to be configured. Those also have multicast features like IGMP snooping which can help things be more efficient to the 3 set top boxes. However if you want to go with a dumb switch ($15 range for a small one from tplink or netgear) try googling the model number with "pass vlan tags" and just find one that someone has confirmed does it.

Personally I'm using TP-Link 8 port TL-SG108E which is $27 on amazon right now and it works well. The equivalent Netgear was a couple dollars cheaper at the time (but now it is $1 more) but the TP-Link had some better specs, and I'm not a big netgear fan. The 5 port versions are a bit cheaper, netgear dumb 5 port is $15, smart is $21, tplink 5 port dumb is $15 and smart is $23.

Both 5 port dumb ones support jumbo frames so just google them both and see if anyone has had success with them passing vlans. GS305 and TL-SG105 are the models for the 5 port dumb ones.

One of the comments here seems to imply the netgear 305 (dumb version) passes tags (though its just reddit, who knows)

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/rqmqys

I guess to be certain I'd rather have a smart switch and just configure the VLANs (assuming the ones you've read are correct). VLAN 1 is default on every port so you'd just need to add VLAN 3999 tagged on every port and that should work.

Yes, I have tried that, however as discussed with different users using the same ISP, this doesn't work setting it up in LAN->IPTV. My ISP is supposedly using (and now I'm translating quote from other users) "For watching "catch-up" TV STBs use internet stream (VLAN1) and VLAN3999 for watching Live-TV"

In that case you would set the IPTV page to VLAN 1 for internet and 3999 for the STB ports. Is that what you tried? 3999 is in the newer/higher VLAN range but most support that now. Haven't tried it on the Asus but probably supported, if it didn't give you an error. The question is does the ISP want VLAN 1 tagged or not. Per spec, VLAN 1 should never be tagged, but I have seen it done. Not sure how the asus will deal with that since VLAN 1 is the LAN also, and it typically tags anything you put on the IPTV tab. Maybe if you leave the internet field blank it will leave it untagged. Not sure.

If all you want is to split a port off the ISP's router to the STBs and have no need to feed them through the Asus, then using one of the switches above is the easiest and most foolproof way to go.

I meant using the "switch on the Asus". I connected AP (RT-AX86U) to modem, and then connected my STB to AP (RT-AX86U) with ethernet cable. I tested this and it work, as long as RT-AX86U was set in AP mode. In router mode this doesn't work. To my understanding, because it cannot handle VLANs or in other words supposedly "doesn't know what to do with them"? Anyway, I tested this and found that STBs were kind of laggy when changing channels or sometimes froze for a second when watching catch-up programme (not really sure what's the correct english word for watching shows after they have been broadcast). Due to this reason I plugged STB directly to modem to see whether the STBs are laggy, or AP between modem and STB is causing the problem.

The switch is VLAN aware in both cases, my guess is it was seeing the tags and passing them but getting a bit confused. Also without IGMP snooping support (efficient multicast) that can cause some lag. That may be a disadvantage of a dumb switch, the ISP router may have IGMP snooping configured, and smart switches above will let you do this too. When you had the asus in router mode, were you plugging both the ISP router and your STP into LAN ports (not WAN)? It should work the same in that case as it does in AP mode. But again, because the switch in the Asus is VLAN aware, I'm actually surprised it worked, but that may be the reason for the lag you saw, it was getting a bit confused on how to process stuff, and maybe even dropping a lot of the packets due to being oversized (the switch dosn't support jumbo by default, you have to configure it in the GUI).

For now, as said, STBs do work when connected to AP with ethernet cable, but like I said in paragraph above, I'm not sure whether it works as intended. Ideally I would want to put my main RT-AX86U in router mode and let it do its magic with VLANs, but I haven't found any good source on how to do it on my RT-AX86U (or I'm missing comprehension on posted tutorials)

If dumb switch really does work as "letting everything through the ports" I would just place one dumb switch after the modem and then connect all the STBs to that dumb switch. This way I would free some modem ports.

If all you need is extra ports off the ISP router for STBs, your best bet is to skip the Asus all together (just use them as APs or switches for other stuff that doesn't use VLANs) and get one of the 5 port switches I listed. Again your call as to whether you want to try a dumb switch or use a smart. I think the smart is a better idea as it will let you test performance with IGMP snooping on and off, plus it is guaranteed to be able to handle VLANs (assuming you can find the correct VLAN, hopefully 3999 is correct). They have some other nice features like being able to configure a port for sniffing traffic etc but doesn't sound like that's something you'd ever use.

 

[Mb11]

Can You draw Your network?
most probably now it looks something like this:
Gpon ONT -> modem/router from Orange -> Asus -> STB
This way it will work as long as the asus is not set to the router mode.
Try readin this threads (in polish, sorry!)

Orange FTTH Triple Play na własnym sprzęcie - Trzepak.pl

https://www.hejdom.pl/blog/28-smart-rozwiazania/321-swiatlowod-orange-i-wlasny-router-ont.html

You can find my network below. I don't know what Orange is, I would assume it's an ISP provider, however I state owned national ISP Telecom provider. I tried opening the first link, however I get the message that my access is blocked.

 

[Mb11]

Dumb switches passing VLANs is a bit of a crapshoot. Technically, ones that follow the ethernet spec correctly should not pass them (they are a totally different "ethertype" than normal frames). However, I will say that now that most switches support jumbo frames, it is more likely it will pass the VLAN tags (the main issue was tagged packets are 4 bytes larger and switches without jumbo support would drop them) but some will still see it at a malformed frame and drop it. Given that you can get a "smart managed" switch with VLAN support for $20 to $30 (netgear and tp link both have them in this range) that may be the way to go, especially if you know which VLANs need to be configured. Those also have multicast features like IGMP snooping which can help things be more efficient to the 3 set top boxes. However if you want to go with a dumb switch ($15 range for a small one from tplink or netgear) try googling the model number with "pass vlan tags" and just find one that someone has confirmed does it.

Personally I'm using TP-Link 8 port TL-SG108E which is $27 on amazon right now and it works well. The equivalent Netgear was a couple dollars cheaper at the time (but now it is $1 more) but the TP-Link had some better specs, and I'm not a big netgear fan. The 5 port versions are a bit cheaper, netgear dumb 5 port is $15, smart is $21, tplink 5 port dumb is $15 and smart is $23.

You can check my current network on the post above and possible network if I invested additional 50$ for 1 5-port smart switch, and 1 dumb switch to extend my internet to smart tv.

Both 5 port dumb ones support jumbo frames so just google them both and see if anyone has had success with them passing vlans. GS305 and TL-SG105 are the models for the 5 port dumb ones.

One of the comments here seems to imply the netgear 305 (dumb version) passes tags (though its just reddit, who knows)

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/rqmqys

I guess to be certain I'd rather have a smart switch and just configure the VLANs (assuming the ones you've read are correct). VLAN 1 is default on every port so you'd just need to add VLAN 3999 tagged on every port and that should work.


In that case you would set the IPTV page to VLAN 1 for internet and 3999 for the STB ports. Is that what you tried? 3999 is in the newer/higher VLAN range but most support that now. Haven't tried it on the Asus but probably supported, if it didn't give you an error. The question is does the ISP want VLAN 1 tagged or not. Per spec, VLAN 1 should never be tagged, but I have seen it done. Not sure how the asus will deal with that since VLAN 1 is the LAN also, and it typically tags anything you put on the IPTV tab. Maybe if you leave the internet field blank it will leave it untagged. Not sure.

I have checked with my ISP... Internet data should be untagged and VLAN 3999 should be tagged for STB to work as intended.
Regarding the IPTV tag I assume you're talking about this:

I read posts from some of the other users on the same ISP, and they mentioned this doesn't work, but maybe the settings they've tried are a bit different. So as per your instructions, I should try putting the following:

Internet VID 1 PRIO 0
LAN Port 3 VID 3999 PRIO 0?

I haven't really tried that yet, as I have currently all connected to modem/router. To try that I would have to call ISP to change to modem to bridge mode, and set PPPoE on Asus router first, before fiddling with IPTV tags, I assume?

If all you want is to split a port off the ISP's router to the STBs and have no need to feed them through the Asus, then using one of the switches above is the easiest and most foolproof way to go.

That is something I will do definitely. I will buy TL-SG105E to work as a smart switch. Even better would be if I could at some point set my Asus RT-AX86U as a router rather than AP, as I have many wifi devices at home and I feel like ISPs modem/ruter is struggling with keeping all devices connected.

 

[drinkingbird]

You can check my current network on the post above and possible network if I invested additional 50$ for 1 5-port smart switch, and 1 dumb switch to extend my internet to smart tv.


I have checked with my ISP... Internet data should be untagged and VLAN 3999 should be tagged for STB to work as intended.
Regarding the IPTV tag I assume you're talking about this:
View attachment 50009
I read posts from some of the other users on the same ISP, and they mentioned this doesn't work, but maybe the settings they've tried are a bit different. So as per your instructions, I should try putting the following:

Internet VID 1 PRIO 0
LAN Port 3 VID 3999 PRIO 0?

I haven't really tried that yet, as I have currently all connected to modem/router. To try that I would have to call ISP to change to modem to bridge mode, and set PPPoE on Asus router first, before fiddling with IPTV tags, I assume?


That is something I will do definitely. I will buy TL-SG105E to work as a smart switch. Even better would be if I could at some point set my Asus RT-AX86U as a router rather than AP, as I have many wifi devices at home and I feel like ISPs modem/ruter is struggling with keeping all devices connected.

You shouldn't need to have them switch to bridge mode unless you want to remove their routing functionality. They are sending the VLAN tag out the LAN ports so you can plug your router into the LAN and configure the settings. If nothing else, just to test to see if it works.

For internet I'm not positive if you want to put "1" in there or just leave it blank. You may have to try both and see. As far as the priority, that is something your ISP is supposed to give. You can try 0 to start.

Changing your Asus from AP to router won't make any difference for wireless devices, if your ISP's router is having trouble with too many wifi devices then simply moving them to your Asus in AP mode would solve that, no need to make it a router. It looks like you've already done that. If you're having wifi issues, it isn't to do with their router. Now if they're having trouble with managing NAT tables or routing that's a different story but it seems unlikely these days.

Rather than buying 2 switches, can you not just do a second home run to the main switch? You will have 4 ports on that switch so you have one free for the TV. There is no guarantee the dumb 105 is going to pass the VLAN tag to the STB.

Honestly given all the trouble people seem to have getting IPTV working right through 3rd party routers, I think keeping the STBs connected to their device directly is probably your best bet. You have two options for that - use a switch, which does still introduce some uncertainty but pretty easy to tweak, as long as you have the right VLAN IDs, then you can just test IGMP snooping on and off and see which is better. Or daisy chain your two Asus so they are only consuming one port on the ISP device and plug all the STBs directly into it with no switch.

But if you want to try it in the meantime, you can try setting up IPTV on the Asus currently connected to the STB and see if it works. Should not require any changes to the ISP router.

 

[Mb11]

You shouldn't need to have them switch to bridge mode unless you want to remove their routing functionality. They are sending the VLAN tag out the LAN ports so you can plug your router into the LAN and configure the settings. If nothing else, just to test to see if it works.

For internet I'm not positive if you want to put "1" in there or just leave it blank. You may have to try both and see. As far as the priority, that is something your ISP is supposed to give. You can try 0 to start.

Changing your Asus from AP to router won't make any difference for wireless devices, if your ISP's router is having trouble with too many wifi devices then simply moving them to your Asus in AP mode would solve that, no need to make it a router. It looks like you've already done that. If you're having wifi issues, it isn't to do with their router. Now if they're having trouble with managing NAT tables or routing that's a different story but it seems unlikely these days.

Rather than buying 2 switches, can you not just do a second home run to the main switch? You will have 4 ports on that switch so you have one free for the TV. There is no guarantee the dumb 105 is going to pass the VLAN tag to the STB.

Unfortunately running another cable is currently not an option. I installed TP-Link's smart switch TL-SG105E yesterday (without configuration, just plug and play) and all the TVs work fine.

Honestly given all the trouble people seem to have getting IPTV working right through 3rd party routers, I think keeping the STBs connected to their device directly is probably your best bet. You have two options for that - use a switch, which does still introduce some uncertainty but pretty easy to tweak, as long as you have the right VLAN IDs, then you can just test IGMP snooping on and off and see which is better. Or daisy chain your two Asus so they are only consuming one port on the ISP device and plug all the STBs directly into it with no switch.

But if you want to try it in the meantime, you can try setting up IPTV on the Asus currently connected to the STB and see if it works. Should not require any changes to the ISP router.

Like you already proposed, I will try to set my Asus to router mode instead of AP, and try running STBs. If for some reason doesn't work and there's too much fiddling with it I'll just let it be connected to the ISP's modem as an AP. If AP/Router mode make no difference in dropping clients (which for now is actually pretty stable without clients dropping) I see no other benefit running it in Router mode rather than AP. Especially since I don't need or use any advance features of the router.

I really appreciate all your detailed replies, many thanks!

 

[drinkingbird]

Unfortunately running another cable is currently not an option. I installed TP-Link's smart switch TL-SG105E yesterday (without configuration, just plug and play) and all the TVs work fine.

Like you already proposed, I will try to set my Asus to router mode instead of AP, and try running STBs. If for some reason doesn't work and there's too much fiddling with it I'll just let it be connected to the ISP's modem as an AP. If AP/Router mode make no difference in dropping clients (which for now is actually pretty stable without clients dropping) I see no other benefit running it in Router mode rather than AP. Especially since I don't need or use any advance features of the router.

I really appreciate all your detailed replies, many thanks!

Some VLAN aware switches require you to set up the VLANs, others default to "dumb mode" but will pass the tags since they are VLAN aware. Since the TP Link is advertised as "plug and play" I'm assuming it is defaulting to dumb mode. If you're not seeing any issues/lag/etc you can probably just leave it as is, but you can also try enabling/disabling IGMP snooping on it and/or adding the 3999 VLAN to see if anything works better or worse.

Clients dropping (assuming you mean wireless) should not have anything to do with your ISP router at this point as it is only doing DHCP and routing/NAT, which it should be more than capable of doing for dozens of clients.

 

[drinkingbird]

If you prefer using your RT-AX86U as the primary router, you should check if there's a firmware update for your router that includes VLAN support.

The only VLAN support on non-Pro routers is for IPTV on the WAN. They will almost certainly never release the full VLAN support to these routers as they want people to upgrade to the Pros.