Upgrading Wireless network, maybe AX?

[Yulian]

So, I am currently planning an upgrade from a 3 node first gen google wifi mesh. One to get off google's locked down stuff, but 2 is that its not handling some of our use-cases.

I have a 2100 sqft house, large first story, and half-sized second story for bedrooms. 2 ends of the house are probably 1400 sqft apart. I just moved in a few months ago.

Reason I bring this up is my only option is Comcast cable, I have the gigabit option (I get about 600-800 depending on the time of day), and the only 2 entry points that work (I have 3, but one does not seem to let the internet come up) are on opposite ends of the first story, in opposite corners.

Currently the Google wifi handles most of what we need, but I wanted to do some game streaming from a gaming PC in an office room on the 2nd story, down to the first story family room.

Up till now I have been using a Shadow for game streaming, while watching 4k Netflix, and wife also playing online games. For some reason the google wifi isn't handling this and dropping connections. Also I just moved to this house and had to go from gigabit fiber with no caps, to gigabit cable with a 1TB cap, and between the Game streaming and TV streaming, I burn through the entire thing in half a month, hence moving to a home solution.

The google wifi can't handle low latency streaming from the gaming computer to another machine. It causes artifacts and other problems.

I was considering doing some kind of MOCA setup with the coax cables in the first story (second story does not have coax cables in any room). But I don't even know how good the coax cabling is in the house to even use MOCA. I can't find a cheap way to test it except buy 2 MOCA adapters, set them up, and use 2 computers to test the throughput.

My current solution options are as follows:

1. Get a AX router, put it in the corner of the house with the bedrooms and family room, and just deal with shirtty signal in the main living room and other areas. (would probably get a good AX usb adapter for the gaming computer at least.)
2. Get 2-3 MOCA 2.5 adapters and use that as a backhaul for Ubiquiti nanoHD APs and a security gateway.
3. same moca setup, but with 2 cheap AX1500 TPLink routers, one as an AP
4. same moca setup, but with my existing google wifi
5. Move to an alternate mesh wifi setup (eero, or aplifihd, or something)
6. Get a 2pack of AX92U asus routers (same price as AX11000 router) and use those.

The important part is stability of the connection, and being able to stream low latency 40-50mbit stream from a gaming computer on the 2nd story to another room over wifi. Walls are made of standard plaster and studs/wood/etc.

My budget is around $400, but i can push it to $500 for something like a good Ubiquiti setup.
The house is not wired for ethernet, and I rent. While the landlord is chill with anything I want to do, running ethernet would be a pain in the butt, time consuming, and probably not cost effective.

Any suggestions on what I should do? I am at a loss of which option would best suite me.

 

[thiggins]

How are the two devices that you are gaming between connected? Ethernet or WiFi. If WiFi, what kind of adapter (1x1 N? 2x2 AC)?

I'm no gamer, but 50 Mbps seems like a pretty high data rate requirement for gaming. Or is that for your 4K stream(s)?

 

[avtella]

Games usually use less than 1 megabit/s of data for multiplayer/online play, I’m guessing it’s 4K streaming he wants it for.

 

[Yulian]

For your first question, it's currently WiFi with 2x2 AC for both computers. Desktop has Intel 8265 built in. I believe the laptop uses the same chip.

And the answer is 4k, low latency stream of the game. The game runs on the gaming computer, and I stream the game to another computer where I actually play. So like remote desktop for games. My controls are sent to the gaming computers, gaming computer sends video and audio back.

Hence the high megabit, it's effectively a 2nd or 3rd 4k stream.

 

[coxhaus]

Even though you don't want to hear it wire is the best when it comes to low latency. Wireless is a shared media with higher latency. I am not saying you won't find a wireless solution but Ethernet wire will have lower latency in all cases over wireless.

 

[Yulian]

Even though you don't want to hear it wire is the best when it comes to low latency. Wireless is a shared media with higher latency. I am not saying you won't find a wireless solution but Ethernet wire will have lower latency in all cases over wireless.

Totally agree, but I need to also keep visible cables to minimum as a mandate by the wife and while the gaming computer might be able to get on wired, wireless for the other devices is pretty much required.

I just want to confirm that a wired backhaul with some APs is the right approach and if I can future proof a bit with AX

 

[Trip]

Hi Yulian, welcome to SNB.

So, just moving to AX (mesh-capable APs and/or or all-in-ones) likely isn't going to solve your issues alone (I'm sure you sense this already). Besides the fact that the true differentiating features (OFDMA, BSS coloring, etc.) are not and will not be available for some time, the biggest ground to be gained will be via wiring your backhaul/backbone, followed by proven AC Wave 2 wifi, with APs of the right density, spatial-stream and range for your clients.

Backbone/Backhaul - See if the wife would be ok with you running some Cat6 via concealed raceway. This is the most optimal wired approach for latency, bandwidth and PoE for your APs. If that's a no-go, then I'd do GoCoax MoCa 2.5 adapters plus a MoCa amplifier with active return (the PCT F14 models are great) and as many MoCa-compatible splitters as you may need downstream (if any). Presuming three goCoax adapters for $60/ea. ($180), a $60 PCT unit and maybe $10-20 worth of splitters, you could build your wired runs for ~$250 via coax or $100 to $150 if you went Cat6 + raceway.

Switching + Wifi - From there, UniFi may make the most sense if that's what you've set your sights on. TP-Link Omada would be a fair bit cheaper; you just wouldn't end up with the single-pane-of-glass over your entire access layer, and their software/firmware isn't quite as mature. If you went UniFi, I'd run a US-8 switch ($120), two UAP-AC's for $135/ea. (I'd forgo the NanoHD's) and run the controller for free on a PC (for now). That's $390. With TP-Link gear, I'd do a TL-SG108PE ($60), two EAP225v3's ($65/ea.) and the OC200 controller ($85) -- $275 total.

For a gateway, I'd do a non-integrated ER-X ($60) over a USG, as its under-powered for what you pay. An ER-4 ($175) would ensure complete non-blocking performance, but perhaps not totally necessary, at least to begin with.

Putting all that together, you could get down to $500 or so via Cat6, TP-Link for switching/wifi and an ER-X. On the high end, a hair under $800 if you had to go coaxial, wanted UniFi and treated yourself to the higher-power router (ER-4). Regardless, following the wired backbone approach with discrete components will give you a way lower latency/jitter, higher-throughput and more stable network for everything, not just gaming.

 

[Greg72]

Games usually use less than 1 megabit/s of data for multiplayer/online play, I’m guessing it’s 4K streaming he wants it for.

Even with 4k streaming, the max bandwidth used is around 35-40mbps.

A AX AP is not going to solve signal coverage. Placement of the AP or AP’s will. One on each level or even one in the middle of the house to cover both floors. I have the xb6 eMTA that Comcast supplies with Xfi and get coverage from the Basement to the second floor bedrooms and when outside at the workshop, I still get decent coverage and speed when connecting to 2.4ghz out there. My 5ghz speeds are maxing out around 710 and wired around 925. I am just using my rt68u as a Time Machine backup server at this point.

 

[Yulian]

Thank you all for the suggestions. Thanks Trip for such a thorough response. I got some research to do on some of the items you mentioned and for keeping an eye on the budget.

Also if I can sit up the purchases over 2-3 separate purchases over a few months, I can go over 500$. 400-500$ is my limit for buying it all in one go, which the wife prefers but that's not hard set.

Thanks again.

 

[Trip]

You're welcome. It's great to know you can invest more perhaps a few months down the line. That being said, the bare bones you'd need would be your backbone wiring (a must), at least one AP and the entry-level but very reliable gateway (ie. a Ubiquiti ER-X). You can skip the discrete PoE switch (and add one in later), plus migrate to a more powerful router at that time if you desire (EdgeRouter-4, or similar).

 

[Yulian]

So, @Trip , sorry to bug you again, but I wanted to know a bit more on what you suggested. What is the purpose of the MOCA Amplifier? I can guess based on the definition of the words, but what is the goal of the device and is it needed?

Second, does TP-Link have a good gateway or their equivalent "VPN Router" that works with the Omada? or is the ER-X/ER-4 just so vastly superior in that regard that its not worth it? I am just trying to figure out what combination of things I want. I am leaning towards the TPLink setup.

I am currently at my parents for Thanksgiving, so I can't actually check the best backhaul method that would work for me. But my concern is that all the Cable connections are on the first story, and there are none on the second story. My only hope is there is a covered up socket in the Office that I havent checked inside to see what was covered up. (my gut is its a phone line so wont help, but hoping for a cable line). Getting a raceway up to the 2nd floor from the nearest Cable connection might be really messy.

 

[Trip]

No problem. The MoCa splitter/amplifier unit isn't always necessary, I just prefer it in cases where coax runs may span a couple hundred feet or more end-to-end (including splittes). Using one ensures enough baseline signal that any line loss doesn't effect the service quality across the house, be it for MoCa, cable TV or phone. Feel free to try without one, though, and if all measures out normal, then perhaps you can go without it. For 2100 square feet, that could likely be the case. At least you'd know what to put in should your MoCa signal be jittery/low-bandwidth and/or the TV signal has trouble carrying HD or locking a signal onto your set top box(es).

Regarding TP-Link wired routers, they never had much success with them up to this point. You can see it in the reviews, and to my knowledge all of the TL-ER series (the higher-end of the line) have been EoL'd, with no replacements in sight. The remaining TL-R series are fairly low-throughput, but more so it seems their firmwares aren't all that well bug-fixed, nor that frequently updated. So yes, I would say an ER-X/ER-4 would be a superior purchase for that piece of the puzzle. A shame, too, were it not for that area, I'd be inclined to say you could go all TP-Link.

On the wiring, aside from surface-mounting, I presume you've explored all the in-wall options (crawl spaces, snaking/fishing with pull-rods, etc.)? If there's at all a chance to run Cat6, even if a residential AV/networking shop would be willing to do a few runs for you for a small invoice, that would be the way to go. Otherwise, even if you couldn't get MoCa to the second floor, you could still (hopefully?) run two APs wired and only one of them mesh? If it's a no-go on all of the above, then you could certainly run an all-wireless mesh, either via pro gear or with a wholehouse product like Eero Pro or Orbi; it may suffice for your needs. Hard to tell without perhaps trying it first.

 

[Yulian]

Thanks for the insight. I didn't think about trying to get a AV/Networking shop involved. I might double check that kind of pricing. Thanks for the feedback on the TP-Link, it is a shame, but it is what it is. and I notice the suggested EAP225 is AC1300. Is that sufficient as a AP? I know my google wifi mesh right now is AC1750, but i know these numbers are all just weird sums of the bands and protocols.

Also, you mentioned the NanoHDs should be avoided, is there a reason? Just curious as I want to learn the ins and outs of the hardware options.

I will be honest, I did not have time to do any real exploration of options. There is a tiny crawl space near the boiler/garage, and a small half-height attic. The only thing that I can see beneficial is the 2 bedrooms that could be used for an office are directly above the garage. so running wires through the garage might be doable. The garage also opens up to the family room, so running a wire there would also work. But I haven't honestly explored every nook and cranny of the garage, and how the current Coax lines run. If I can run a Coax line into the garage, I can setup everything in the garage. I can run 3x Mocas to get internet to the Family and Living room APs, then run an Ethernet cable through the ceiling of the garage into the Office bedroom. Kind of a weird hybrid setup. Then eventually, look into running ethernet cables along the same lines as the Coax cables, and slowly switch eveything to ethernet. But, I have not looked how the coax cables run, and what I can access through the garage. I only moved into this house a few days under 2 months ago, and between unpacking and setting up new lives in a new state, I haven't taken the time to really inventory the house. I can potentially run a cable through the outside of the house from the garage, into the Family Room and upstairs using some outdoor raceways or something. Not ideal but could get me what I want. And then only use 2 moca adapters to get the signal to the really far side of the house.

I find that most of the rooms that are involved are on one half of the house, except for the giant living. I can probably post a half-baked quick floor plan if that helps any.

 

[Trip]

Regarding AC____ ratings, yes, the numbers represent theoreticals based on adding the maximum possible throughput from each band, which rely on actually have higher spatial stream clients (3x3, 4x4, etc.) that can actually take advantage. Fact is, in real life most clients are only 2x2 maximum, so presuming radio design and underlying architecture is the same, the lower-"rated" sibling with at least enough spatial streams for your clients, and similar throughput at range, should give you similar real-world results.

That being said, I noticed just now that the EAP245v3 is on sale for $69 on Amazon; it supposedly offers slightly better range and throughput than the 225, so that's probably your play right there if you go TP-Link.

With Ubiquiti, I was only thinking the UAP-AC over the Nano based on it being a bit cheaper and a bit longer range. But the Nano fits a bit better into the paradigm of more radios at lower power and higher density, versus fewer radios at higher power and perhaps a bit lower density (the UAP-AC). I was thinking perhaps you could get away with two AC's, versus possibly needing three Nano's. But if you know that Nano is the way you want to go, no harm. It is the newer gen product, being AC Wave 2, so it will have MU-MIMO and a bit better airspace optimzation for loading it up with clients close by, while still being fairly high-performance. The -AC may be a better value for a "quieter" environment with fewer total clients, but more range to cover (which is what my initial thinking was).

On exploring more wiring possibilities, completely hear you on where you're at, and I think you're going down the right path. Also, don't be surprised if you hit a bit of a pay wall with the residential networking/AV companies. A few Cat6/coax runs may not be worth the truck roll and man hours for them (versus only doing that work as part of a $20,000 whole-house AV/network build out). But the answer is always "No" until you ask, right? So call up a few of them anyways.

On the plan, if you think you'd like help that specifically, go ahead and if I've got time I may be able to mark it up in Visio for you with my thoughts on runs and gear placement.