WiFi & Router for Gigabit Fiber?

[lifereinspired]

Hello,

We finally have fiber available & it was installed today - (symmetrical) Gigabit. We live in an 850sq single story apartment in a building w/ 40 total units so definitely WiFi from others nearby. We currently have a nearly 4 year old Netgear R8500 (X8) router/wifi unit. It’s been having some issues off and on but we’ve been trying to limp along with it for as long as we can. 5ghz band can be difficult to get reliably at the other side of the apt.

We lived with it when we had 250/12 cable service but the router is really cutting down the internet speeds. Given that we’ve waiting for 7 years or so to get this, we’d love to be able to make the most of the speeds.

I think the truth is that the Netgear R8500 simply isn’t the best option for Gigabit. We’re not getting bufferbloat issues anymore, as far as I can tell but the router just isn’t pushing the speeds that it claims it should be able to - even in the same room only 8 feet from the router itself w/open line of sight.

Given that WiFi 6 is still too far off to be getting into it at this point, what would you get to make use of the newest speeds? Would you get...

1) a decent but not too expensive AC router (TP Link Archer 4000 $149) or

2) Eero or Orbi mesh (the Orbi has a slightly better processor, if I remember correctly) or

3) Ubiquity gear or there’s another somewhat similar one that I thought was from Romania(?) or

4) I’ve seen mentions of a what I guess is an open source OS that one installs on a box/mini computer for a router (can’t find the name even though I’ve searched) but it may be beyond what I want to do in complexity or

5) Say screw it, keep what I have for as long as I can - not taking advantage of the new speeds (75% less than what we’re paying for) waiting till WiFi 6 is more mainstream

6) Something else entirely?!?

Definitely feeling at a loss as to what to do. How important is SQM , given the high bandwidth we have now? I’ve seen some people saying it’s still really important. That would definitely change the options as I know very few can do true SQM.

I was told that using APs vs a mesh would increase my WiFi bandwidth/headroom. I don’t fully understand this and would love to, since it might be an important factor in deciding which way to go.

Lastly, we do have quite a few things connected at any given time between mobile devices, laptops, iPads, media server, smart home stuff (SmartThings, Hue, Harmony, Arlo, August, Google Home, etc), plus printers, scanners, etc. Minimum of 30 devices and easily up to 50 or more. There are more than 100 devices total but given that things like the lights are all connected to WiFi via the bridge, the router doesn’t “see” all those individual units, just the bridge. However, I know that’s more use than average. I’m trying to keep this short(er) but if you need more info about our setup, please let me know. Thanks so much!

 

[degrub]

What result do you get if you hardwire into one of the router lan ports ?
If that is reasonable then you have options.

Wireless throughput will depend on which band you are on, the type of wireless interface your user device has ( many are 1x1 or may be 2x2 so a newer wireless router or AP will not matter), and interference from neighbors among other issues.

Using an AC class AP may be all you need. Just turn off the radios in the existing router in that case and connect an ethernet cable to the AP. There are plenty of guides and threads here to help you.

If you add multiple APs, then use ethernet backhaul or make sure there is a separate radio for backhaul.

It sounds like most of your devices or intermittent with occasional bursts.

 

[Trip]

Router - For a 1Gb full duplex WAN, you need 2Gb/s aggregate routing. Presuming nothing you're running requires routing in-software via CPU (VPN, QoS, etc.), then anything with a NAT hardware-offload chip capable of 2Gb/s will work: most higher-end consumer routers (Asus RT-AC__, Netgear R7___, 8____ etc.), or higher-clock MIPS or ARM wired embedded box (Ubiquiti EdgeRouter 4/12; Mikrotik RB3011/4011; Netgate SG-3100+). For routing via CPU, you would need x86 hardware, like an i5 or i7 Protectli/Qotom embedded box or a PC with a multi-NIC card in it, running whatever firewall distro you like (OpenWRT, pfSense, Untangle, etc.).

Switching - If you go all-in-one, you'll usually have 4 or 8 built-in L2 switch ports. For a wired box, some have built-in L2 switches (Ubiquiti ER-12; Mikrotik RB3011 or 4011). For a router without a switch (ex: Ubiquiti ER-4), you'd need a discrete switch, L2+ managed, a good brand/model (Cisco SG or HPE OfficeConnect).

Wireless - For 850 square feet, a single higher-end AC Wave 2 all-in-one, placed centrally, should cover you. Multiple APs, even at lower power, would probably cause too much co-interference, unless you can place both cells at the extreme opposite corners of your apt. For 100+ clients, you likely want tri-band cells (one 2.4 Ghz radio and two 5Ghz radios). For an all-in-one, I'd do an Asus AC5300 running Merlin; for mesh, if it didn't co-interfere too much, a Netgear Orbi RBK50 kit. The only thing that might perform better, per-cell, is an AP purpose-built for interference mitigation, like a Ruckus R710. It's only dual band, but it will usually handle 100 or so active, simultaneously talking clients per radio, and adds proprietary band-steering on both bands, per-client real-time polarity adjustment for mobiles/laptops and auto-channel/power optimization. You could also run UniFi, although I find Ruckus smokes it for high-density/high-interference in general. YMMV. If you do run a discrete AP, for this case I would forgo a whole separate PoE switch and just power it from a 802.3at (30W) gigabit PoE injector, wired right to a router with a built-in switch.

Regarding the company you're thinking of from Romania, it's probably Mikrotik, and they're from Latvia.

As for SQM ("smart queue management"), it's usually a combination of a fairness queuing discipline (fq_codel or CAKE) combined with something like a hierarchical token bucket (HTB), and it's great on interfaces sitting between two highly differing link speeds, for example: a gigabit LAN going to a 20Mb/s DSL or 100Mb/s cable line. In your case, since WAN and LAN are both symmetrical gigabit, I'd say the impact would much less discernible, if it's measurable at all. If you did want to run SQM at your line-rate, you'd need to utilize a 2-3 Ghz (or higher) x86 box on a top-end chip, like an Intel i5 or i7. I'll ping @dtaht, the authority on bufferbloat, for further thoughts there.

To recap, if I had to do this, I would do: a UBNT ER-12 ($250), gigabit 802.3at Poe injector (TPE-115GI or similar; $30) and one working-pull Ruckus R710 ($200-250 off eBay) running ZoneFlex standalone or Unleashed. Or if $500+ is too steep (totally understandable), then revert to a tri-band all-on-one, like an Asus RT-AC5300 flashed with Merlin for stability ($250), maybe a Netgear Orbi RBK50 kit ($300), if you can get the base and satellite far enough away from each other where there isn't too much co-interference (may have to test and possibly risk returning). Again, the choice of ER-12/AC5300/Orbi is presuming you only need NAT and no special services; for services that require routing through the CPU at anywhere near 2Gb/s aggregate, like I said, you'll need to go with a high-clock x86 box.

 

[System Error Message]

Hello,

I was told that using APs vs a mesh would increase my WiFi bandwidth/headroom. I don’t fully understand this and would love to, since it might be an important factor in deciding which way to go.

Lastly, we do have quite a few things connected at any given time between mobile devices, laptops, iPads, media server, smart home stuff (SmartThings, Hue, Harmony, Arlo, August, Google Home, etc), plus printers, scanners, etc. Minimum of 30 devices and easily up to 50 or more. There are more than 100 devices total but given that things like the lights are all connected to WiFi via the bridge, the router doesn’t “see” all those individual units, just the bridge. However, I know that’s more use than average. I’m trying to keep this short(er) but if you need more info about our setup, please let me know. Thanks so much!

If 1 AP is good, thousands must be better, this is the concept that got wifi to be really good no, so recent wifi is good. However the info you are provided is false. Mesh with wired backhaul and load balancing has more bandwidth than standalone APs which have more bandwidth than wifi to wifi p2p mesh. Just get what you need. If 1 wifi AP covers your place, thats already good enough, and if you need more you can place up to a certain number in the same area if using different channels (have to check neighbours too)

At your price point, a lot of routers will do gigabit NAT, using hardware, but if you want something more like QoS, custom filters and such then you have to consider something different. Your skill level in configuring and learning these devices are important too, so if you are able to operate a command line interface to configure things, there are plenty more choices that also required some understanding of networks as well.

 

[lifereinspired]

If 1 AP is good, thousands must be better, this is the concept that got wifi to be really good no, so recent wifi is good. However the info you are provided is false. Mesh with wired backhaul and load balancing has more bandwidth than standalone APs which have more bandwidth than wifi to wifi p2p mesh. Just get what you need. If 1 wifi AP covers your place, thats already good enough, and if you need more you can place up to a certain number in the same area if using different channels (have to check neighbours too)

At your price point, a lot of routers will do gigabit NAT, using hardware, but if you want something more like QoS, custom filters and such then you have to consider something different. Your skill level in configuring and learning these devices are important too, so if you are able to operate a command line interface to configure things, there are plenty more choices that also required some understanding of networks as well.

Thanks for this. You helped me to better understand some of what was meant by additional APs offering more bandwidth (though I’m not sure I’m using exactly the correct them there).

As far as my command line prowess, I can follow simple instructions. I’ve run Linux for quite awhile and have use the terminal. I’m not “fluent” in coming up with commands myself. I’m one of those people who can dig into a subject and learn what I need to.

Having said all of that, I’m not sure I want to set myself up with a system that’s going to require a lot of manual settings and tweaking to work. I can definitely handle more than plug-and-play but I don’t want to be managing something all the time. I really don’t know what to do. I was considering Eero with it’s unique true QoS but I’m not really interested now that they’ve sold to Amazon. I’m not wild about any big data company being my family/home’s gateway to the internet - even if they are stressing that the privacy policy won’t change. I won’t have Google/Nest WiFi for the same reason. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Trip]

I realize everyone has their own perspective on the "privacy" thing, but IMHO people are dreaming if they think they're not already being surveilled to an extent that they would probably be disturbed to know, regardless of which products you think are more secure than others (LOL). So from an everyday practicality and quality-of-life standpoint, just buy and use whatever you need to get the job done. If that's Eero, so be it.

I realize this isn't a psychology or a politics forum, so I'll go no further than to say I'd encourage people just simply allow themselves to focus on and enjoy whatever product serves their needs at the moment. That simple, obvious value far outweighs anything else, including big brother, the boogeyman, etc. Just my 2C.

 

[Greg72]

Life inspired, do you know what I use with my gig service. The eMTA that I am renting through Comcast. It works better for wifi than the RT-68u that I have. I am still using the rt-68u for Time Machine backups and have turned off the radios on it. If I do decide to use it, I will then turn on the radios.

K.I.S.S. principle if you do not want the headaches of having yo manage an Enterprising network after spending all day at work. I have been there and it wears you down when every available hour is spent managing something that only two people are using part-time during the week and full time all weekend.

Three of us are streaming right now and still have enough bandwidth available for a few others to stream or play games without headaches.

 

[lifereinspired]

Life inspired, do you know what I use with my gig service. The eMTA that I am renting through Comcast. It works better for wifi than the RT-68u that I have. I am still using the rt-68u for Time Machine backups and have turned off the radios on it. If I do decide to use it, I will then turn on the radios.

K.I.S.S. principle if you do not want the headaches of having yo manage an Enterprising network after spending all day at work. I have been there and it wears you down when every available hour is spent managing something that only two people are using part-time during the week and full time all weekend.

Three of us are streaming right now and still have enough bandwidth available for a few others to stream or play games without headaches.

I have to admit, this has been a worry. I know that I can dig in and learn what I need to on most any given subject - and I’m definitely more tech inclined than many. I enjoy it and I self-identify as a bit of a geek. But I also don’t want to deal with more work and stress than I need and I’m a little worried about what it would take to setup and manage a Ubiquity, Mikrotik, or similar setup. I think that I could learn to do it, but I don’t know if I want to have to put in that much effort.

I want something that will work and be easy and reliable. I deal with some serious chronic health problems and it gets stressful to cope with issues that crop up and break things. I’m considering the Linksys MX10. I’m not loving what I’m hearing about the Broadcom based routers and this one seems to have the Qualcomm Pro 1200 chip - and it’s 3x faster than what powers the Eero. Even though I know I won’t have some of the benefits of WiFi 6 till more clients become available, it will have more processing power. I can also get it for 25% off right now, which makes it more reasonable and I’ll likely only need one for our apartment. I may create a separate post to try to learn more as it’s still fairly new.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I’m definitely going to keep it foremost in mind as I decide what to get. As cool as a “true enterprise grade setup” might be, I don’t think it’s gonna be worth the aggravation, for me. You really made some great points and I appreciate you taking the time to share.

 

[System Error Message]

Just remember, multiple APs in the same area with overlapping channel reduces the overall available bandwidth. That is why its important to get an app like wifi analyzer and look at the frequency space to make sure nothing overlaps. Sometimes auto will do a good job, sometimes its better to set your own frequencies depending on how much free space you have that isnt invaded by other wifi. This only matter where the AP is and where the client is (If AP and client dont see any other wifi in same space despite there being other wifi in area than its fine)