Wifi solution for long, property with thick walls

[AlteredCarbon]

Property: long, vaguely S shaped apartment in large 150 year old building with extremely thick brick walls

Master socket: right in the centre of the property and not movable without some major work.

Problem: wifi at both ends of the property is not just poor but frequently drops connections to a range of devices (i.e. is most likely a router rather than device issue!).

Failed solutions:
1) An array of b/g/n/ac, multi-antenna, mimo, dual band routers tried (none in the upper price tiers though) - no major change in performance
2) Powerline + extra APs - works well when it works... which was not very often. Powerline would fail periodically (old electrics I assume) and devices would almost always need to be manually changed to new networks on entering each zone.
3) Ethernet has been extended to one of the end zones but cannot reach the other without some major work.

Since I last attempted to tackle my wifi issues some time ago, mesh wifi has become popular so my questions to you fine folks are:
1) Would a 3-point mesh wifi system solve these problems or would there be no benefit given the configuration of the apartment?
2) Would a high-end single wifi router solve these problems? If so, any suggestions?
3) Any other options open to me that doesn't involve major wiring or drilling?

Many thanks!

 

[tannebil]

MoCA is an option if you have coax in multiple rooms, that could be used with either multiple independent APs or a mesh system that uses wired backhaul.

Also, the lastest powerline adapters are much better than the older ones so if you were trying older, cheaper ones, you might try it again with the latest gear.

 

[thiggins]

All Wi-Fi must obey transmit power limits. The main difference in performance comes from more antennas/streams. So if you haven't tried an AC2600/AC3100 4 antenna router, that might help.

Mesh points tend to have lower transmit power. They depend on Wi-Fi to communicate among mesh points. So walls will block those signals too. If you want to try a "mesh" system, try the original NETGEAR Orbi.

You didn't say whether you tried a Wi-Fi Extender.

I also agree with the suggestion to try latest tech Powerline.

 

[AlteredCarbon]

Unfortunately one of the two deadspot zones does not have any wired connection potential besides powerline.
The powerline kit I used was a TPLink av200 starter kit which I thought was quite old but I notice is still a current product on their site. The main problem was powerline network instability rather than throughput. Put simply I kept having to re-pair the powerline devices and the network would also frequently drop to the AP (but would be fine at the main router).

I have not tried an extender. When I last looked they did not support single whole-home SSID sharing without custom firmware or hacks. Are mesh-style shared SSIDs now supported out of the box by extenders these days? I've just looked at a few on Amazon and none seems to support this but maybe I'm looking at the wrong products!

 

[thiggins]

AV200 is old. Try an AV2 MIMO adapter. They are better at adapting to noise on the line.
Try
Extenders today can be set for single or per-band SSID.

Use at least 3x3 extender or better with 4x4.

 

[AlteredCarbon]

Buying two of the 3x3 extenders you suggest would cost more than a 3 point mesh system here in the UK. Would adding two extenders be better than a single mesh system?

Also, quite a few people asked questions on Amazon's netgear product page about shared router SSID features and the answers all seem to suggest that it only allows for a second SSID/network not a shared single SSID. Are there any that offer single SSID solutions a la mesh systems? As per my OP, having two networks doesnt work for me as whenever I done this devices aren't intelligent enough to switch to the stronger network wben moving from zone to zone. Mesh systems solve this problem as far as I understand it.

Thanks

 

[thiggins]

You can't believe everything you read on Amazon. Download the manual for the product you're considering and do your research there about SSID settings.

Extenders can't connect to each other, only to a router. Mesh systems are 2x2 designs, not 3x3. So bandwidth between nodes won't be as high.

NETGEAR Orbi uses a dedicated 4x4 connection between router and satellite (extender).

Single SSID doesn't guarantee that devices move to a "better" node. Devices determine when and if they change APs. You have to look at the BSSID that the client is connected to, to see if they moved. Some devices provide that info, some don't.

 

[tannebil]

Roaming is a major PITA in my experience. As Tim noted, it’s the clients responsibility to pick the best access point and my experience is that most clients don’t change until the current connection gets pretty weak. Some systems offer “roaming assist” to help the client make a “better” decision but i don’t think they generally work that well in the consumer space. It seems like the system would need to understand the current signal strength between the client and all the possible APs in both the 2.4 and 5 GHz band to decide when it was the right time to force an AP change. it would also want to know how busy the various APs are at that time, the congestion on each band, and maybe even the performance of each AP to the destinations the client is using. It might well be that any of those factors might mean that a weaker signal to AP #1 will perform better than a stronger signal to AP #2.

I always find it amazing that WiFi works as well as it does. I’ve got 8 Plume pods (access points) in my house and all kinds of interesting edge cases come up. For example, if I unplug a pod for some reason, my ‘fixed” (not moving) wireless devices will switch to the next best pod. When I plug it back in, sometimes they switch back and sometimes they don’t. I assume that’s partly because the WiFi stacks in these devices just isn’t that sophisticated. It’s generally not an actual problem as they tend to be low performance devices but occasionally they hang on to a really poor connection until I power cycle the device and check that it has switched. Which is another issue as many of these devices, like the Nest Protect and my thermostat, don’t have power switches.

 

[AlteredCarbon]

You can't believe everything you read on Amazon. Download the manual for the product you're considering and do your research there about SSID settings.

Extenders can't connect to each other, only to a router. Mesh systems are 2x2 designs, not 3x3. So bandwidth between nodes won't be as high.

NETGEAR Orbi uses a dedicated 4x4 connection between router and satellite (extender).

Single SSID doesn't guarantee that devices move to a "better" node. Devices determine when and if they change APs. You have to look at the BSSID that the client is connected to, to see if they moved. Some devices provide that info, some don't.

Very interesting and good suggestion on the manual download. Will do.

 

[AlteredCarbon]

Just in case anyone stumbles across this thread with the same problem: I managed to solve it with a 3-hub mesh system (TPLink Deco M5) rather than a more powerful router or powerline/extender system. Given the linear nature of the mesh set up, I'm surprised it works so well but it has completely eliminated all black spots and dropped connections that all my single router solutions used to cause.

 

[joegreat]

Just in case anyone stumbles across this thread with the same problem: I managed to solve it with a 3-hub mesh system (TPLink Deco M5) rather than a more powerful router or powerline/extender system.

Same approach as I did with 2 routers/APs - there is no magic solution: You need to bring WLAN in the black spots by adding transmitting devices...

Given the fact that I have 2 Gigabit LAN ports in each room of my flat (thanks to planning ahead before I moved in) I can easily add APs where needed.

 

[thiggins]

Just in case anyone stumbles across this thread with the same problem: I managed to solve it with a 3-hub mesh system (TPLink Deco M5) rather than a more powerful router or powerline/extender system. Given the linear nature of the mesh set up, I'm surprised it works so well but it has completely eliminated all black spots and dropped connections that all my single router solutions used to cause.

Glad you found something that works for you. What made you choose the Deco over other WiFi Systems?

It's important to realize "mesh" systems always provide a nice strong signal due to the use of physically distributed access points. But just because you get a strong signal doesn't mean you get high throughput.

The wireless link between mesh nodes is still reduced by walls and other obstacles. Lower signal = lower throughput available to be passed along to the end client.

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...es/33135-router-or-wi-fi-system-how-to-choose

 

[AlteredCarbon]

Same approach as I did with 2 routers/APs - there is no magic solution: You need to bring WLAN in the black spots by adding transmitting devices...

Given the fact that I have 2 Gigabit LAN ports in each room of my flat (thanks to planning ahead before I moved in) I can easily add APs where needed.

Yup, good planning ahead!

As per my earlier post, I tried a multi AP system and found my wireless devices rarely if ever connected to the strongest points so I kept having to manually switch networks to avoid the same regular drop outs and network hangs my single router solution was plagued with. I have not had a single drop out in the week or so I've been using the Deco mesh vs dozens per day before.

 

[AlteredCarbon]

Glad you found something that works for you. What made you choose the Deco over other WiFi Systems?

It's important to realize "mesh" systems always provide a nice strong signal due to the use of physically distributed access points. But just because you get a strong signal doesn't mean you get high throughput.

The wireless link between mesh nodes is still reduced by walls and other obstacles. Lower signal = lower throughput available to be passed along to the end client.

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...es/33135-router-or-wi-fi-system-how-to-choose

TBH, I am less concerned with maintaining high throughput than maintaining a stable connection. As per my last post, I used to get multiple drop outs per session at the extremities of my property (where my devices are most often used) which would result in dozens per day. Since switching to the mesh I have not had a single drop out or network issue anywhere on the property. AFAIC, problem solved!

I chose the Deco after a price/performance review of all available products in the UK. I needed a 3 hub system which ruled out the 2-hub packages (e.g. Google Wifi). Also, I got the Deco on offer for £210 (vs £230 almost everywhere else) so in the end it was a no-brainer.

 

[joegreat]

As per my earlier post, I tried a multi AP system and found my wireless devices rarely if ever connected to the strongest points so I kept having to manually switch networks to avoid the same regular drop outs and network hangs my single router solution was plagued with. I have not had a single drop out in the week or so I've been using the Deco mesh vs dozens per day before.

Same with me: But some measuring of signal strength and setting up the Roaming Assistant under WLAN/Professional did the trick: Now the devices connect always to the nearest (strongest) AP!

 

[System Error Message]

UK does not have MoCA. Most brick walls are in europe so when someone mentions brick walls most of the time its someone from europe.

When it comes to wifi strength, there are 2 catogaries. The omni and directional. Setting up a p2p based directional wifi network will pass through brick walls while allowing high tx power, but i recommend giving powerline av2000 a go. I have a tp link powerline and it works well, just not bandwidth wise and this is the easiest way to extend by connecting an AP to the other side.

The other is to start wiring, use flat ethernet cables under doors for example.

 

[Philealing]

Just in case anyone stumbles across this thread with the same problem: I managed to solve it with a 3-hub mesh system (TPLink Deco M5) rather than a more powerful router or powerline/extender system. Given the linear nature of the mesh set up, I'm surprised it works so well but it has completely eliminated all black spots and dropped connections that all my single router solutions used to cause.

Well I just stumbled across this thread.

I am in a similar dilemma. Old 15th century house with VERY thick granite walls. WiFi extenders using the mains wiring have been patchy partly because we have three-phase electricity so you need to be plugged into the same phase.

Main router sits in living room in middle of ground floor. WiFi works fine in upstairs bedrooms as floor is quite thin.

Problem is the rooms each side of the living room, and the rooms above them, struggle to receive any WiFi. I too was wondering if a three point mesh WiFi was an option having only stumbled across them yesterday. I even purchased the Deco M5 on Amazon before cancelling it when I found the M9. The M9 appealed because it claims to be more powerful plus, a bonus for me, it has a home hub built in. Problem is it is only two units and I suspect I will need three..... and it is quite pricey.

Decisions.... decisions.

 

[netwrks]

The only way to combat older homes with thick rock walls is to is to install multiple ethernet connected Access points. Wifi doesn't do well punching through rock. Forget extenders / mesh solutions..