Wireless Bridge Recommendations

[PinkFloydEffect]

I moved into an apartment with WiFi included in the rent, but its a weak signal and I would like to be on my own my own subnet.

I got a free bridge from work but its a piece of junk (DLINK DAP-1525) from 2011. Surprisingly it supports 5GHz AC....must have been ahead of its time. Its weak though, I can get twice the bandwidth with a USB 3.0 adapter than I can with the DAP-1525 literally in my window. Usually a bridge requires a transmitter but this works without any proprietary frequency bands.

The landlords router/AP is on an auto setting so both 2.4GHz and 5GHz show up under one SSID which is not exactly ideal. However when using the DAP-1525 it allows you to connect to the radio you want...it actually shows two radios on different channels for B/G/N and two radios on different channels for N/A all 4 with the same SSID.

I setup a Ubiquity bridge 5 years ago that impressed me so I am considering looking into Ubiquity again but that project required a proprietary transmitter/AP. Ideally I would like to bridge onto the landlords 5GHz radio then patch to a firewall>switch>desktop PC & my own AP. We went to running pfSense on a blade server at work so our old rack mounted Untangle firewall is up for grabs...thinking about trying to run pfSense on the Untangle hardware.

Long story short the weak link in my chain is going to be the bridge radio so I need help choosing one.

 

[thiggins]

You want something with a separate backhaul radio, preferably 4 stream. Here are two
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...awk-x6s-tri-band-wifi-range-extender-reviewed
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...inksys-re9000-mu-mimo-range-extender-reviewed

 

[Val D.]

I moved into an apartment with WiFi included in the rent, but its a weak signal and I would like to be on my own my own subnet.

I'm sure you can find a suitable wireless bridge, but there are some other concerns with shared Internet. The first concern is for the owner of the account - he/she is responsible* for all the activity on this account, both legal and illegal. If the owner faces trouble, the Internet sharing option will be discontinued. The second concern is for the users - their activities online can be monitored by the owner of the account. Depending on knowledge and equipment available, he/she may see many things you may not want to be seen. Make sure you know what you can expect and what you want before spending money for a wireless bridge. BTW, D-LINK DAP-1525 is a N300 device, no AC support. This is probably why your USB 3.0 AC adapter is faster.

* - There are some exceptions

 

[Klueless]

There is a lot you don't tell us so let's take a shot in the dark.

The Netgear 6150 (AC1200) is not a bad "range extender". It costs less than $100. It has a "fast lane" configuration. Since you're saying "weak" I'm guessing 2.4 GHz is giving you the best signal? You can set the 2.4 GHz to be the dedicated back haul to the landlord's service. Since you're only throwing 2.4 GHz at the landlord's service it will connect at 2.4 GHz even though he's grouped both 2.4 & 5 GHz under a single SSID.

The remaining 5 GHz radio of the Netgear will be dedicated to your stuff. You can name (& password) that SSID for your use only. If your apartment is "smallish" with the typical "paper thin" walls the ("weaker") 5 GHz signal might work just fine within your apartment.

The 2.4 GHz back haul will likely be your "pinch point"; 2.4 gets better range than 5 GHz but it runs slower. You will want to find the absolute best location to connect to the landlord's service. You mention "window", do you have "line of sight" to your landlord's equipment?

You mention a USB 3.0 adapter. To a PC? What are you seeing with that? Does 2.4 or 5 GHz work best? What speeds? Were you able to fine tune the best location? The speed you see with this best case scenario (over 2.4 GHz) should be close to what you can expect to get with this cheap ol' 6150.

Even though 2.4 GHz can hit around 100 Mbps I'm guessing 35 to 50 Mbps is more likely based on the "weak" signals you're claiming.

BTW: The 6150 has one Ethernet port so you could connect that to a dumb switch to fan out Ethernet for hardwired PCs.

(While this is cheap and easy it would not put you on your own subnet.)

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I think there is some confusion here, I am not interested in a repeater or range extender...thats just what I happened to have laying around for free.

As far as the shared connection, I am really not worried about the account holder. They agreed to provide WiFi as part of my rental lease and I will be running pfSense between my subnet and their network. So the account holder/landlord will not be able to view my subnet, they are not tech savvy anyway.

I want a bridge radio with an Ethernet output, so I can connect it to a pfSense firewall. Something non-invasive that I don't have to mount to the exterior of my building. I am close enough with a line of sight that with a high powered/gain 5GHz radio I can jump on their 5GHz for the best bandwidth, they have a fiber duplex connection with speeds of at least 150Mbps so I want to utilize their 5GHz radio. Just with the USB 3.0 adapter on an extension cable by the window I have "2/3 bars" and I am pulling speeds of 160+Mbps...there is lots of room for improvement with the proper radio on my side along with better placement. So my USB adapter must have been using their 5GHz radio if I was pulling 160Mbps. I realize 2.4GHz has a tighter wave with a farther distance but I am set on utilizing 5GHz. I know some model APs are reversible as a bridge, and typically have better radios than "WiFi adapters" so I was looking at that route....plus USB adapters are limited to the length of the USB cable and will not allow me to connect to a firewall with Ethernet.

I have some firewall choices I got from work, I just started studying for my CCNA so bare with me if I am not making sense on your level yet. We upgraded our firewall a few times over the years, especially when we started using two different WAN connections. We have a D-LINK DFL-260E, a NETGEAR FV336G and a UNTANGLE u150 all of which are no longer being used.

I really want to run pfSense at home, and the current system requirements are a 600MHz processor with 512MB of RAM. The DFL-260E only has a 266MHz processor (Intel xScale IXP425), some appear to have come with a 532MHz Intel xScale IXP435 but that is barely going to cut it. The FV336G only has a 300MHz processor and 64MB of DRAM so that will not run pfSense either. However the u150 has a dual-core processor with 4GB of RAM and a 7200rpm HDD so that should be capable of running pfSense. I know you can buy a mini-PC with multiple NICs to run pfSense but this u150 has high quality NICs. I may even be able to upgrade the HDD to a SSD, I can run pfSense on Untangle hardware...right?

D-LINK DFL-260E:
-Firewall Throughput: 150Mbps
-VPN Throughput: 45Mbps

NETGEAR FVS336G:
-Firewall Throughput: 350Mbps (LAN-to-WAN)
-VPN Throughput: 78Mbps (3DES) – 14Mbps (SSL)

UNTANGLE u150:
-Firewall Throughput: 1Gbps
-VPN Throughput: Unknown

The u150 seems like the winner, much faster throughput! Thoughts?

 

[thiggins]

I want a bridge radio with an Ethernet output

Do you want the device to operate using WDS or infrastructure mode, i.e. associate to any AP?

The consumer extenders I cited associate to any AP and bridge to an Ethernet output, where you can connect to what you want.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Do you want the device to operate using WDS or infrastructure mode, i.e. associate to any AP?

The consumer extenders I cited associate to any AP and bridge to an Ethernet output, where you can connect to what you want.

Sorry, now I see it and understand your points. Comparing the two for $20-$30 more I would go with the Netgear over the Linksys, the AC3000 clearly states its maximum speed on the website (1.7Gbps).

I guess "range extenders" have come a long way since I last messed with them, at that time they were a brick you hang off an outlet basically at floor level for most applications. I do like the concept here with these units where I would not have to buy an AP however if I am running the back-haul output through an Ethernet firewall is it possible to return the feed back to the front-haul radios? Some sort of Ethernet loop would have to be established.

What exactly do these use now for back-haul radios? Are they the same as the front-haul just dedicated, or stronger?

This is my window looking down, the AP is located about 4 feet behind that glass door. I have another window 5-6 feet to the right that has a more direct line of sight to the AP but I believe the shape of the patio ceiling deflects a lot of the signal back down, because the signal is not great for being so close. Which is why I thought something that was not so omnidirectional as these repeaters would be more suited for performance in this application. Basically the same antenna as a PTP bridge without using a pre-paired protocol, just the standard 802.11AC @ 5GHz.

 

[Val D.]

because the signal is not great for being so close.

Is this a metal screen on your window?

The u150 seems like the winner, much faster throughput! Thoughts?

I couldn't find detailed specifications, can't say if it will install/run pfSense.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Is this a metal screen on your window?


I couldn't find detailed specifications, can't say if it will install/run pfSense.

Good catch, but no it appears synthetic. I can see the fiberous tears and discoloration from the sun. I will double check it tomorrow though.

I have literally searched all over Google for "pfSense on Untangle hardware" with not a single hit. You would think it would be a common mod.

 

[Val D.]

I will double check it tomorrow though.

I don't know what the AP is, but I would expect very good signal strength on this distance. Check what the AP is first, there is no point to buy 4x4 bridge if the AP is 2x2. And what Internet speeds are we talking about? Because 2x2 AC is good for >300Mbps throughput already (well, if no much activity on the channel). Are the best channels in use or the AP/router is set on Auto? This may impact the performance significantly. Your Internet is going through landlord's router no matter what equipment you have. If you want to run VPN servers on anything requiring port forwarding, then you have to open ports on the landlord's router too. How is this going to work and is he going to be OK with that? I don't like the whole idea, honestly. I believe you both don't fully understand well the inconvenience of this setup. And he probably doesn't know the responsibility he's taking by sharing his own internet account.

 

[Klueless]

I am not interested in a repeater or range extender ... I guess "range extenders" have come a long way since I last messed with them, at that time they were a brick you hang off an outlet basically at floor level for most applications.

Yes. Those "bricks" of yesteryear were all single-band. That left wireless clients and the wireless backhaul to the router in the same collision domain so one could argue they were a layer one / repeater device.

Today we have dual and tri-band. You dedicate one radio (no clients) to be the backhaul. Now the backhaul and clients are in different collision domains so one could now argue it is a layer two / bridging device.

I am not pushing the 6150 "brick" but I did use one to shoot 5 GHz to the WiFi router, in the window, of the building, across the parking lot. Rather than plug it into a floor outlet I built a small bracket and hung it from the window. (Yes, it looked a little silly but I live in a "low rent" district : -) I benched between 150 and 200 Mbps (depending on what was parked in the parking lot) from a PC hardwired to the 6150.

(If things got really slow that meant the owner was in and coffee break was over. You see, he had this huge truck and he would park right in front of the window with the wireless router.)

​

In your app it would leave only one radio to "waste" but, I just thought of something. Perhaps set both radios for backhaul and none for clients?​

 

[thiggins]

Depending on the product, backhaul radio can be two or four stream.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I don't know what the AP is, but I would expect very good signal strength on this distance. Check what the AP is first, there is no point to buy 4x4 bridge if the AP is 2x2. And what Internet speeds are we talking about? Because 2x2 AC is good for >300Mbps throughput already (well, if no much activity on the channel). Are the best channels in use or the AP/router is set on Auto? This may impact the performance significantly. Your Internet is going through landlord's router no matter what equipment you have. If you want to run VPN servers on anything requiring port forwarding, then you have to open ports on the landlord's router too. How is this going to work and is he going to be OK with that?

I am not sure either, whatever the standard AP is that Frontier offers with Fiber in FL I will look into it. I thought 2x2 on 5GHz was good for more than 300Mbps? The AP is definitely set to auto so devices are probably moved around regularly, another reason a dual-band backhaul would be ideal if possible.

Good point on opening ports on the landlords router, hmm I did not consider this. I did trace an Ethernet cable from my apartment through conduit leading to the back of the landlords house, where it is connected to an ONT box...so I could pay for my own service by the looks of it if I wanted to take on that bill someday but I can not afford my own fiber connection. Since this ONT box is right next to the landlords ONT box I am now curious if it would be possible to put a switch between the landlords ONT and their router/AP unit so that I can hang my own router off their ONT? Is it even possible to run a secondary router aka two routers on a single ONT? Would this be against the ISP policy in some way? (Frontier).

Yes. Those "bricks" of yesteryear were all single-band. That left wireless clients and the wireless backhaul to the router in the same collision domain so one could argue they were a layer one / repeater device.

Today we have dual and tri-band. You dedicate one radio (no clients) to be the backhaul. Now the backhaul and clients are in different collision domains so one could now argue it is a layer two / bridging device.

I am not pushing the 6150 "brick" but I did use one to shoot 5 GHz to the WiFi router, in the window, of the building, across the parking lot. Rather than plug it into a floor outlet I built a small bracket and hung it from the window. (Yes, it looked a little silly but I live in a "low rent" district : -) I benched between 150 and 200 Mbps (depending on what was parked in the parking lot) from a PC hardwired to the 6150.

(If things got really slow that meant the owner was in and coffee break was over. You see, he had this huge truck and he would park right in front of the window with the wireless router.)

​

In your app it would leave only one radio to "waste" but, I just thought of something. Perhaps set both radios for backhaul and none for clients?​

Not a bad solution for under $100, I did use one of these repeater bricks back in the day on an extension cord for proper placement. 150Mbps-200Mbps would suit my needs but 300Mbps+ would be more ideal.

You say dedicate both bands to backhaul, is that possible? I don't think this unit has a dedicated backhaul, but having a dual-band backhaul sounds ideal as if one of the AP radios went down it becomes redundant with a 2.4GHz fallback...or if I were to get temporary interference in the 5GHz than the 2.4GHz coudl pickup the slack. Latency is also a factor in my setup, I want the least latency between the AP and my network.

I would definitely run a standalone AP if I used one of these as my bridge, I do not really have any 5GHz devices besides for my laptop I rarely use...but my phone is important and I only run that on 2.4GHz for range reasons. Plus I really do not think average phone use can benefit from 5GHz bandwidth anyway.

Depending on the product, backhaul radio can be two or four stream.

As in MIMO? I guess that is something to consider as well, I may be able to take advantage of all the MIMO streams on the AP to increase backhaul bandwidth. As mentioned above it would be nice to have a dual-band backhaul for both bandwidth and redundancy.

 

[thiggins]

As mentioned above it would be nice to have a dual-band backhaul for both bandwidth and redundancy.

"I don't know of any "tri-band" products that have a dual-band radio for dedicated backhaul. They all have a second 5 GHz radio.

 

[Klueless]

You say dedicate both bands to backhaul, is that possible?

Yes (see below). The question is can you disable the clients; I "think" you can?

I don't think this unit has a dedicated backhaul,

Yes, as per above (and you can "flip" it to 5 GHz backhaul).

Now that I think about it THiggins once wrote about a couple of dual-band Linksys Extenders that use "Cross Connect". If your iPhone connected @ 2.4 then it would auto-magically use 5 GHz for the backhaul or if your Laptop connected @ 5 GHz it would auto-magically use 2.4 for the backhaul.

But it sounds like you are looking for?

Landlord => WiFi => Your Bridge/Extender => Ethernet => Firewall => Your "stuff"

* "your stuff" being multiple LAN ports and an AP.​

And what Internet speeds are we talking about?

Good question.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Yes (see below). The question is can you disable the clients; I "think" you can?
View attachment 21851
Yes, as per above (and you can "flip" it to 5 GHz backhaul).

Now that I think about it THiggins once wrote about a couple of dual-band Linksys Extenders that use "Cross Connect". If your iPhone connected @ 2.4 then it would auto-magically use 5 GHz for the backhaul or if your Laptop connected @ 5 GHz it would auto-magically use 2.4 for the backhaul.

But it sounds like you are looking for?

Landlord => WiFi => Your Bridge/Extender => Ethernet => Firewall => Your "stuff"
* "your stuff" being multiple LAN ports and an AP.

Good question.

No I don't think I interpret that the same, FastLane would still be bottle-necked by the 2.4 GHz backhaul...like up-sampling a media file. Basic mode almost looks better, working like a load balancing router.

Your flowpath is correct so I am looking into a "CPE" from Ubiquity such as their 5 GHz airMAX LiteBeam or PowerBeam placed in my window.

My internet speed is unknown, I know its low latency duplex fiber. The best speed test I pulled so far was 160Mbps on a not so ideal signal....so I wouldn't be surprised if we have a 300Mbps connection.

 

[Klueless]

... want the device to operate using WDS

Yeah, I had a feeling that was what the OP was really after (when he kept saying "bridge") but I'm thinking the Landlord isn't going to be able to accommodate.

... such as their 5 GHz airMAX LiteBeam or PowerBeam placed in my window

Now That sounds interesting! Looking forward to hearing how it works out.

FastLane would still be bottle-necked by the 2.4 GHz backhaul

Yes but No. That pic didn't show it but there is a config button that allows you to select 5 GHz as the dedicated backhaul. That's what I used ... when I dangled the box from the window ... you saw the silly picture I posted?

I've a friend who's remodeling his property. It's two buildings so he's going to want network in the 2nd bldg. for some low speed stuff, e.g., TV and web browsing. I was going to simply redeploy an ol' 6150 but I might hold off until I see how you make out!

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Yeah, I had a feeling that was what the OP was really after (when he kept saying "bridge") but I'm thinking the Landlord isn't going to be able to accommodate.

Now That sounds interesting! Looking forward to hearing how it works out.

Yes but No. That pic didn't show it but there is a config button that allows you to select 5 GHz as the dedicated backhaul. That's what I used ... when I dangled the box from the window ... you saw the silly picture I posted?

I've a friend who's remodeling his property. It's two buildings so he's going to want network in the 2nd bldg. for some low speed stuff, e.g., TV and web browsing. I was going to simply redeploy an ol' 6150 but I might hold off until I see how you make out!

Turns out Ubiquity products require pairing, even using their 5 GHz products...so that idea will not work. I am required to use the landlords AP, so I will probably give up soon and get my own connection. I have deployed their NanoBeam bridge equipment before for a customer and I was very happy with the results!

If your using 5 GHz as the backhaul on a 6150 than you will have to use Ethernet to an AP or else the 2.4 GHz fronthaul is now the bottleneck. No point in having a 300Mbps backhaul to only distribute it @ 2.4 GHz speeds which caps out at 150Mbps.

 

[Klueless]

No point in having a 300Mbps backhaul to only distribute it @ 2.4 GHz speeds

Absolutely true but I thought you just wanted an Ethernet port that went to your own firewall that then went to your very own substructure of LAN ports and APs?

If not then there's still the THiggins tri-band extenders.

But your own connection sounds best; you'll have a lot more opportunities for think, tinker and play : -)

 

[thiggins]

Turns out Ubiquity products require pairing

Pairing with what? Could you please explain this?