X6S w R7000 or Orbi RBK40 or Orbi RBK50 over MoCA Ethernet backhaul

[AllMeshedUp]

Spent much time researching and still hesitant to pull the trigger, as still have a few questions on this, and whatever search pulled up from SNB and elsewhere hasn't crisply answered them. Hopefully can state them here and get the answers I am looking for (and maybe help others looking for same or similar).

Objective:

Have seamless single SSID wifi connectivity across the house for up to 30 devices, with ability to support ethernet backhaul at critical points, and provide separate guest access.

Background:

Have 4000+sf home. Have a R7000 / AC1900 Nighthawk already, but it has significant wifi blind spots in a couple areas. I don't think just one extender can do the job because of the shape/floorplan (blindspots are in divergent areas).

I have cable outlets in two of the three locations I intend to place these units. I plan to have a MoCA 2.0 Bonded adapter setup at each of those two locations. The intent is to provide Ethernet backhaul capability (I also have Tivo Units at both of them too).

The house is a backwards "S" shape with the center being a "squarish" rectangle. The three locations would be approximately on three corners of that "square" (two of the "corners" would be on opposite ends of upper floor - feeding rooms out / away from that "square"). The upper floor approximates a "U-shape" , the middle being open to the central main floor area. One satellite will be obscured a bit, but it is the one with MoCA Ethernet. The one without MoCA is open line of sight to the first unit on the main floor, and will be the closer satellite anyway. The main floor unit will be the router connected to Ethernet (and on to MoCA).

At the moment, it looks like the Netgear line might be the better choice for my objective (but am willing to consider other mesh product lines). As such, I am considering three options:

1) Two Nighthawk Mesh X6S units along with the R7000. R7000 and one X6S connected to Ethernet via MoCA 2.0 ~ $460
2) Orbi RBK53 (AC3000 router and two satellites). R7000 wifi turned off but MoCA 2.0 connected, with Orbi Router 1Gbps ethernet connected to R7000, one satellite connected to Ethernet via MoCA 2.0, and one satellite wifi to Orbi router ~ $470
3) Orbi RBK43 (AC2200 router and TWO satellites). Similar hookup. ~ $400

Questions:

1) I've read a very recent review (macobserver) and seen several Amazon reviews reporting problems with the recent update to the Orbi line - OrbiOS 2.1.1.12 and 2.1.1.16 - that were supposed to introduce ethernet backhaul support, but have introduced bugs / stability issues.

1a) Has anyone a similar setup to what I outline (for either Orbi product line) and are they experiencing similar problems, or are the problems really related to complexity of setup vs user skill? tips?
1b) Since the X6S is fundamentally the same RBK50 router hardware, has anyone set up an ethernet backhaul with it? And, any problems? tips? Is there an inherent advantage to X6S over Orbi?

This is a deal breaker for the Netgear products if they are finicky on setup, or are unstable for use with ethernet backhaul.

2) If an Orbi router and one satellite are supported by an ethernet backhaul, is RBK53/AC3000 overkill?
3) Similarly, is the Mesh X6S overkill?
(I know these are an "it depends", but given the space description and number of devices, hopefully that is enough to go on).

4) If yes to #2 and #3, is there a downsized/cheaper Netgear mesh alternative setup worth considering, that someone has real world experience with?
5) Maybe all the Netgear offering is overkill, and better off with TP-Link Deco M5 3 pack ($250), or even Google Wifi 3 pack ($270). Anyone with experience with these in a similar setup?

6) Maybe Netgear offering is not overkill, but stability issues right now might make the Linksys Velop 3 pack more viable ($500), or the Eero 2nd Gen 3-pak ($500), which don't seem to rely on one unit being the router. Anyone with experience with these in a similar setup?

I could set up an extender (I've installed open source router software on an old router to do this in the past), but don't want the hassle. Want something somewhat easier to support that my kid could do it.

Lots of questions, I know, but bothered by the recent problems reported, primarily, and wondering if I am over prescribing a solution (since my experience is that wifi products never live up to their hype in real world performance) when a setup at half the price might work just as well. Thanks.

 

[thiggins]

This basic question has been asked and answered many times. Simply put, if you are using backhaul to connect mesh nodes, you might as well save money and buy simple access points instead. You are wasting even more money if you use Ethernet to connect "tri-band" nodes that have a third radio to use for backhaul.

The "seamless roaming" magic ascribed to mesh systems is largely smart marketing. The same roaming assistance technologies (band steering, 802.11k,v,r, load limiting) are also available in access points and newer extenders like NETGEAR's EX8000 and Linksys' RE9000.

In the end, devices decide when and where to roam. Throwing too many APs into too small an area can make the process less stable by having too much overlap between APs.

Today's extenders have come a long way. They don't use WDS and have built in browser-based wizards to guide you through the process. They can support single SSID. Then can use one band for backhaul and the other for client connection. Many have AP modes and can be connected via Ethernet.

No one can tell you with any certainty that using any particular set of products is going to work perfectly in your situation. The best you can get is to be pointed in a general direction, which is what I'm trying to do.

 

[cnowacki]

I have a somewhat similar setup. I have about 30 wired devices, 50 wireless devices, and a TiVo Bolt with several Minis. I was using an Asus RT-AC-66U with Shibby Tomato firmware with two ActionTec bonded MoCA 2.0 adapters as a backhaul from downstairs to upstairs as well as to feed TiVos. Each port on the AC-66U was tagged with a different vlan to separate work vs personal vs IOT devices. I pre-ordered an Orbi and later added a second satellite. It had great performance when it worked. However, I had way too many stability issues. I moved back to a modified version of my old setup (EdgeRouter Lite and put AC-66U in AP mode) and haven't had an issue since. I'm planning to stick with a single wireless router in AP mode going forward.

I suspect some of the issues like band steering and roaming will probably exist in any star or mesh wireless network. However, some of my issues were unique to Orbi. The WeMo and Dropcams just didn't seem like Orbi and would frequently drop connections every 15 minutes. That seems to be mostly fixed now, but I suspect it was a combination of implicit beamforming enabled on 2.4 GHz and band steering between 2.4 and 5GHz networks. WIFI calling on iOS was darn near impossible when walking around the house because of roaming and band steering. What really frustrated me and caused me to revert back to my old setup was all the bugs starting in firmwares 2.0.0.74 and above. I ran the Orbi in AP mode and any device connected to the satellites essentially stopped working around 1.12.0.18. They claim to have fixed a high CPU issue on the satellites, but I still can't use them on the latest firmware. I tried using MoCA for the wiring backhaul with firmware 2.1.1.12, but still had issues even with devices wired into the Orbi satellites. For example, Echo Dots/Google Home had trouble responding to requests and reported connection issues, HEOS speakers couldn't stream music or would drop out of groups, a TiVo Mini wired into a satellite reported the connection was too slow to stream, etc. Meanwhile, all my work devices wired into a Cisco switch connected to the same router, EdgeRouter Lite, worked perfectly.

FYI, it is possible to SSH into the Orbi and use different SSIDs rather than band steering. This really helped with some of the connection issues to Dropcams, iOS devices, WeMo, etc. I also disabled the auto update feature to keep my Orbis from upgrading to the latest firmware because the satellites essentially stopped working. Finally, my parents have the Orbi in router mode and aren't having nearly as many issues as I am in AP mode.

In the end, I just got sick and tired of debugging constant issues and having to constantly tweak settings in the GUI like turning off UPNP, implicit beamforming, MIMO, daisy chain, etc. to get a stable network. I must have cleared the NVRAM a dozen times already. I also don't think I should have to "hack" my Orbi to turn off the auto update feature and forced to upgrade to buggy firmwares full of issues.

 

[AllMeshedUp]

Thanks gentleman!

@cnowacki - what you explain is precisely what I was concerned about, and your environment is as near a match as I can expect. Your fallback to router and AP mirrors thiggins advice, and really confirms that is the direction I should head.

@thiggins - Tom - would have been better that you not admonish my inability to find the answer I was looking for - maybe my search isn't up to snuff, but spent hours researching this.

A link would suffice, but instead, a few more hours of searching found this... You, in fact, have a great writeup on just this kind of thing (links provided for the next guy who might have the same questions and land on this thread)...
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...3159-2x2-ac-access-point-roundup?limitstart=0
...One of the best/thorough reviews of recent APs (would like to see one on 3x3 APs too) to be found on the internet.

And I find that I did have this bookmarked...
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/33125-wi-fi-system-roundup

....But your (rather important) point about access points sort of got lost in the details of the rest.

Anyway, I believe that I will run with APs, and will save the rest for future upgrades. Thanks!!!

Also, do you have an affiliate link for B&H Photo? Or, is there a way to send SNB some funds more directly vs via Amazon affiliate link (it is not always the best net value)?

 

[thiggins]

Also, do you have an affiliate link for B&H Photo? Or, is there a way to send SNB some funds more directly vs via Amazon affiliate link (it is not always the best net value)?

Thanks for the thought. But the only way to contribute is via buying on Amazon.