Building my own router?

[RamGuy]

For the past few years I've been using quite a few different wireless routers, those I remember are:

- Linksys WRT54G rev2
Was a great router at that time, I have yet to own another router featuring such great wireless radius! I could actually go outside to the kindergarten like 75-100m from our house and still being able to use our wireless network! With today's routers I'm not able to pick up anything if I take my notebook to the same position.

After a while it died on me, and in the long run as WAN speeds increased, and the demand for gigabit didn't get any lower and people were starting to talk about Draft-N devices the WRT54G series simply fell a bit sort when it came to raw performance, great wireless radius and awesome DD-WRT support wasn't enough in the long run as the demand for superior performance was increasing blazing fast!

- Linksys WRT54G rev4
Pretty much felt identical to the rev2


- Linksys WRT54G rev5
Horrible router, had to be restarted every few hours as Torrent download simply crushed the hardware of this device, the whole v5-v7 of the WRT54G made the entire series a joke.


- D-Link DGL-4500
Great performance, great design of the device itself and a QoS that actually worked to some extend! Major downer was the wireless radius, which felt like half of what the WRT54G combined with DD-WRT wireless radio power boosting was providing us? After a few firmware updates the entire router did go haywire and I was never able to get it back up, the device itself still works, but it wont accept any updating or downgrading of the firmware, nor save any of the changes I try to do within the firmware, rendering it completely useless to me.


- D-Link DIR-655 rev2
The replacement of my dying DGL-4500, felt pretty much exactly the same as the DGL-4500, expect the QoS had to be dealt with manually, as there was no gaming pre-configurations of any sort. Performance, wireless radius and everything felt basicly the same, though I missed the more advanced features of DD-WRT I found the device working okay.

But after a few firmware released by D-Link the device got messed up with buggy firmwares providing no downgrade possibilities.


- D-Link DIR-655 rev4
Got this device on warranty because my rev2 device got unstable with firmware updates not being downgrade-able. Unfortunately the rev3 actually shipped with the crappy firmware, so I was never able to get it stable at all.


- D-Link DIR-855 rev2
Borrowed this one from work, mainly to see if it could replace my DIR-655 rev3 and to test how well the 5GHz network feature actually worked.

The radius of the 5GHz was like half of the 2.4GHz, which itself was half of what I had back in the WRT54G v2 days, so it didn't take long before I scratched the idea of a DIR-855 rev2 running my network.


- Linksys WRT320N
Finally back with Linksys and DD-WRT, it had been a great while since the last time, but DD-WRT never disappoints and the firmware for ones felt like a blast! This router was the first to actually provide me with decent 5GHz coverage, and the 5GHz / 40Hz performance was simply great! Only downer with this device was the lack of raw routing power, neither the CPU or RAM was top notch compared to other devices available.



- Netgear WNDR3700
My first ever Netgear router, and probably my last! The firmware is simply yuck! Here I was complaining about buggy D-Link firmware with barley any advanced features at all, well everything feels great compared to what Netgear offers, I have yet to see other firmware being so dumbed down and completely lacking features like the one on this device.

The device it self is awesome, with a 800MHz CPU and 128MB RAM you get some really good performance out of this thing, and the wireless isn't that bad either, but the firmware is a pain in the arse and if DD-WRT doesn't come to this device fast like hell, I don't see myself using this for long.




In short, I have yet to find the perfect router, the one to provide me with great routing performance and hardware, combined with good wireless radius and performance and great firmware.

There simply doesn't seem to exist something like "the perfect router", you have to either chose between great hardware, great firmware or good wireless, some like the WNDR3700 do managed to combined both the great hardware and good wireless part, but falls short when it comes to the firmware capabilities.



So why not trying to take matter into my own hands?
Perhaps the only way to get the perfect router, is to simply build one?

I know many people use different Linux distros on older hardware to set them up as routers, unfortunately I'm rather blank when it comes to Linux and how to set it up and using it, but I do notice that DD-WRT and some others actually got their own firmware versions for using on X86 capable hardware? In other words, I could build a computer and simply run DD-WRT on it?


I guess the work of building something yourself always will demand more of you, than simply buying something that's pre-built, as when you do things yourself you wont face the same support, so your basicly on your own software wise, so if I don't managed to pick the right hardware or don't managed to get the software running I'm pretty much screwed!

But that's a risk I'm willing to take, in order trying to achieve the perfect router! Another great thing with building a router on my own, is upgrading capabilities, if a new wireless nic is released and I do want it, I can simply replace the one I have with the newer one, instead of waiting for a brand new router featuring the newer card and radios.



There are three different settings I can go with:

1: NAT-router / DHCP only, in other words I will have other external devices for wireless and switch
2: NAT / DHCP + Wireless, only running a external switch which will be needed anyway
3: A all in one solution

The third option wont be considered in the first place as it's cheaper and easier to just keep using my HP ProCurve 1400-8G.


I will aim on the second option, I want a computer capable of doing the NAT, DHCP and wireless, if the wireless proves to be too much of a hassle I will just hook up a external device for the wireless part.


So what kind of hardware is required for this?

Well it has to be:

- Linux compatible
- Somewhat small scale
- Being able to run without that much of cooling


I was thinking of building something around the Zotac H55-ITX!
It's small scale, but it does feature everything I need, combining it with a Core i3 CPU I get plenty of performance, integrated graphics so I can use the one and only PCI-Express slot for Intel Gigabit NIC, so I get one LAN port for WAN, and another one going to a external switch.

But it's not the fact that the board is Mini-ITX, nor that it will provide me with awesome power (yeah, the i3-530 will be overkill!), it's the fact that it comes with a mini-pcie wireless card, which is easily switch-able!


The one major drawback I've felt when considering build my own router in the past have been the need of a PCI-Express 1x wireless NIC, as (at least here in Norway) there are very few options available, there is simply so much more to chose between when having a mini-pcie slot available, it's like a whole new world of possibilities!


Which wireless NIC would be the best to use, considering my notebook will feature a Intel WiFi 6300? Perhaps going with the same card in the router? But how is the Linux support for these cards?

 

[MarkProvanP]

Are you absolutely sure you need to use Linux? There are a simply enormous number of FreeBSD-based router/firewall distributions, such as pfSense or m0n0wall (which is the one on which most are based). However, the problem with this is you need to be extremely careful about the wireless cards you buy for it, as the support for FreeBSD is much more limited for most cards than Linux.

If you are going to build your own router, then I would do these things:
* Don't just use any computer you can find, rather choose one with as low power and heat consumption as possible (you might be able to get a fully-fledged but old PC for nothing, but the power will cost you a lot in the long term).
* If you are going to use an old computer, then remove all unneeded components. Sound card? Get rid of it. Super-fancy discrete graphics? Bin it. CD drives, floppy drives, hard drives? I think you get the idea. Run the OS off of a CompactFlash card, which can be used as a SSD with a simple and inexpensive adapter.
* Also, if using old hardware, don't just go for the newest one. Look for one with serial ports, as they are incredibly useful for the maintenance of the router. Also, try and make it passively cooled, as the less noise it makes the better. Also, consider getting a new power supply, preferably a highly efficient one.
* If you don't want to go for an old PC, you could try and get an embedded system such as an ALIX board or a VIA Mini-ITX motherboard. Intel sell really good Atom Mini-ITX boards as well, but be prepared to pay more for them.

Also, you can get MiniPCIe to PCIe adapters that let you use laptop wireless cards in a desktop, as well as MiniPCI to PCI adapters.

EDIT: I just looked at your post a bit more, and it seems that you are considering using a Core i3 to run it! No offence, but you seem to be quite mad. Enterprise (Cisco et al) routers have processors equivalent to a Celeron 1.8GHz, but I still would recommend an Intel Atom board.

 

[BBurgDave]

Judging from your experience with such a long list of popular routers, I think you are going to have trouble pleasing your customer for the router you are building (you)!

Good luck!

 

[Aluminum]

-long rambling crap I wrote deleted-

For homebuilt Linux AP, wifi = Atheros

_BSD is good for wired appliances but wifi support is too many years behind

Lots of details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_wireless_drivers

Most important thing to check is master mode support, after that the features you want.

Overall based on your laundry list of routers and lack of satisfaction, I'd say you are screwed. Best bet is to find the distrib you like the most and help port it to the WNDR3700.

 

[RamGuy]

It's indeed a crazy idea considering a Core i3-530 as a router processor, it's just that there isn't really that many decent ITX motherboards and embedded solutions available here in Norway, and those we have are rather expensive, making both at Intel Atom and VIA ITX solutions barely cheaper than a Core i3-530 ITX solutions.

And when then cost of a Core i3 solution is (supposedly) much more powerful, most likely way overkill for what I need, I don't see the harm in building something overkill when the price-tag isn't really that much higher.


I've been looking at other solutions besides the i3-530 + Zotach H55-ITX, and we've got these two:

VIA EPIA-M700-15 (VIA C7 @ 1.5GHz CPU)
VIA EPIA-SN18000G (VIA C7 @ 1.8Ghz CPU)


I don't really know how these VIA C7 CPU's compare to either a Intel Atom (single or dual) 1.6GHz or the Core i3-530, but I suspect it to be crushed by the Core i3-530 at least.


If we compare the prices, we're at about:

415$ for the cheapest VIA 1.5GHz, that include RAM, wireless card and antennas
450$ for the more powerful VIA 1.8GHz, that includes RAM and wireless card + antennas
450$ for the Core i3-530 + Zotac H55-ITX solution, that includes RAM, wireless card and antennas as well


So there you have it, not really that much of a price difference now is it?
Only downer with the Core i3 solution though, is the lack of PCI and Mini-PCI, and as it doesn't exist any PCI-Express to Mini-PCI (or does it?) solutions, the range of possible wireless cards are much more limited, there is no possibility for a high power wireless card like the Compex iWAVEPORT WLM-200-N5 11AN from Oxford Tech, I pretty much limited to the Atheros AR9280 and I have yet to find any "high power" editions of those, I'm stuck with regular versions like the Sparklan SparkLAN WPEA-111N.



So what do you think? How will the two VIA solutions do compared to the Core i3-530 solution?

 

[Aluminum]

If you're really going to go that way, the zotac setup would run circles around them in terms of power for doing routing/NAS/whatever else on top of being an AP.

BTW, are you ready to spend nights tweaking linux to do all that?

I have seen a little noise about openwrt and dd-wrt people poking the 3700, I know I'll jump on the first firmware that won't brick it. I'm not sure why the limited general interest because its pretty clear that the future of broadcom support (besides windows) sucks unless you are a hardware OEM that writes them fat checks.

The sparklan card you want is 110N which is cheaper and easier to find, 111N is the half minicard.

Somewhat related to your other thread, since its not for a laptop and your minicard slot is full sized you *might* find a 5008 pci-e high power version in some obscure corner of the internet.
Ubiquiti used to have a "SR71e" or something that was a supposedly boosted 9280, but most references to it have vanished.

 

[Aluminum]

Apparently the SR71e is still out there and in production, but they have their heads in the sand on their own website. (and forums to a lesser degree)

Its a 400mw 9280 card, should work with regular ath9k drivers.

edit: I think the 400mw is some BS that has wormed down through resellers. Based on some very similar parts and cached junk in google, probably something like 22~24dBm/160~250mw which is still a fair amount beyond norm. At least a handful of people have tried it out on various sites/forums/blogs and posted good results.

 

[RamGuy]

There are lots, and then I mean LOTS of very nice Intel based Mini-ITX solutions out there, and some I can get really cheap right from the suppliers here in Norway as well, only problem though is the fact that there is none featuring PCI / Mini-PCI, and as I don't managed to find any PCIe to Mini-PCI solutions (I guess it's not possible considering PCI = Parallel / PCIe = Serial) every Intel based Mini-ITX solutions seems to limit myself to Mini-PCIe wireless cards.


Reason why I want Mini-PCI capabilities instead of Mini-PCIe, which I have on lots of Atom, LGA775 and LGA1156 Mini-ITX boards is the all the available radios for Mini-PCI.


With Mini-PCI we have high power radios like these:

- Ubiquiti SR71-A
- Ubiquiti SR71-15 (for some reason their homepage lists this as a AR9160 card, but the re-seller claims it to be AR9220?)
- Ubiquiti SR71-12
- Mikrotik R52HN
- Mikrotik R52N
- Compex iWAVEPORT WLM-200-N5 11AN


Atheros based cards, all whom should provide me with excellent performance and range?


When it comes to Mini-PCIe I just find this:
- Ubiquiti SR71-E


But perhaps the Mini-PCIe card will do just as well as it's mini-pci siblings? Considering the specifications doesn't seem that much different? The AR9280 is supposed to be identical to AR9220 (besides the PCIe interface, right?) in both performance and overall specification, doesn't it?


I've always found Mini-PCI cards more attractive to use in routers, as there are more to chose between and their more commonly used within access points and routers, but I guess that's about to change and their PCIe siblings is just as good as the Mini-PCI radios?

 

[Aluminum]

Yeah, you are dealing with some of the pain of switching over from the older peripheral bus to the newer one. Embedded systems always end up being one of the last to do so, but they are running out of options when nextgen chipsets (like 9003) don't seem to come in pci flavors. The gigabit limit might be a problem soon enough too.

I'd still say jump the gun and go with the more future proof build, considering no real price difference.

Do the other ITX boards even have two slots of any kind? You have a "bonus" minicard slot which is quite handy along with the x16 slot which can be converted to minicard. Then you can run an AP with dual radios for the 2.4/5.8 bands simultaneously.

Either that, or you could go up to uATX and get 4 slots (2 pci + 2 pci-e usually) there are some fairly small cases with halfheight brackets. I don't think power consumption would go up much, considering you want to run high power wifi anyways.

 

[Aluminum]

Ar9220 + ar9223

I was looking around and found this interesting card, definitely something to look at for custom routers.

It is sold as a "dual band ar9223" on ebay and a few other places but so far no seller is paying attention just the usual copypasta. They all appear to be the same card, blue PCB with hannstar on the back.

It is actually two complete radios on a single mini-pci card: 9220 (2x2 A/G) plus a 9223 (2x2 G). This is identical to the wifi guts of a wndr3700 for around 40 bucks.

I had to dig through many pictures and blow it up to read the markings but I figured it out from one of the ebay postings that wasn't a blurry mess.

I'm tempted to get one just to play with it:

back side

 

[QiBy]

RamGuy, although you started this thread to discuss building a home-brew solution, it made me consider the (many) routers I've used/installed in the past and what I've settled upon for my personal use. Your experiences with DD-WRT appear to be positive, as mine have been, and your budget for this project is obviously considerable to be able to accommodate the h/w involved in building such a machine. It could be a fun/challenging enthusiast project, however...

Have you considered a discrete solution of a medium to high-end wired router combined with wireless routers turned APs? I settled on using a Xincom 602 wired router that is feeding a Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 (north end of house) and a Buffalo WZR-HP-G300NH (south end), with a gigabit switch in between. Both Buffalos are running the newest builds of DD-WRT for their respective models, same SSID and operating on channels 1 and 11, respectively. No issues with my variety of wireless receivers (various Intel, Broadcom, and Atheros radios, plus whatever my wife's iTouch uses). Any wired router on the market combined with DD-WRT capable routers would likely produce similar results, I use the Buffalo models for their excellent range and reliability (the G54 was bought when new to the market, 3+ yrs old?, and runs without issues).

What brought me to the solution I currently employ is my dissatisfaction with the performance of the later versions of DD-WRT while running uTorrent v2, as well as several other UDP traffic-heavy apps. As you stated, I've also found these (and many other) wireless routers to have great stats, but come up short in certain demanding routing situations. This configuration allows me to use the wired router to handle that traffic (the PC running those apps is wired, as is my homebrew NAS), and provides the excellent roaming performance and geeky tweakability of DD-WRT for my wireless devices.

Would this not meet your needs?