Need router help for connection 2000 or more people at the same time.

[hive]

I need some help building or buying a router that can do this, the following is the situation i am in.

We want to give a crowd some interactivity, i need to connect about 2000 - 4000 people to the internal network. There is no internet and it is not needed. Only a very small amount of data will be pushed onto the phone, no more then 10MB over the span of about an hour. Security is not needed it will be open. I would like to monitor the connections.

What i would like to do get a router that can do that, or if there are DIY boxes out there i would have no problem of making one. Please let me know what is possible.

 

[stevech]

at 2000 people, you'll not be able to use Consumer grade WiFi. Even if 7/8th of the people are not active. Of course, you'd have many WiFi access points and one non-WiFi router connecting to the ISP with a quite a bit of service speed.

Is this a temporary event or permanent installation. If permanent, you should get a good IT/WiFi consultant to design and price out an enterprise WiFi solution using Aruba or Cisco or similar managed WiFi system.

If temporary and you don't want to pay for a consultant to devise how to do this one-time, I don't have a suggestion.

 

[hive]

As mentioned I don't need internet, i only need all the devices to be connected, so i can push application instructions out, this is more a social project. This is not a permanent install, it has to travel from show to show.

 

[Nerre]

If you don't need internet you really won't need a router.

You could just set up one large network with a lot of access points.

You will only need a DHCP server to give the users an IP address and then you need the server they shall reach. The DHCP server might be possible to run on the same machine.

You would have to use a Class B or Class A network to get more than 254 IP addresses though. And I'm not sure about the performance if you have several thousands of users on the same subnet though.

You main limit will probably be the number of concurrent clients the access points will be able to handle. And this simple solution will not handle things like seamless handover between access points.

 

[thiggins]

WiFi for 2000? Get professional help.

 

[coxhaus]

In the old days when I was working we had over 5,000 users on every day mostly wired. We had a dedicated Microsoft DHCP server. There is a lot of traffic generated with just DHCP traffic for that many users. You are going to need a server just for DHCP for 4,000 users.

 

[sfx2000]

for 2K clients - you're looking at an enterprise/carrier grade router.

for AP's - rule of thumb here is 25 clients per WiFi AP - I would definitely go with a managed/thin AP, esp since you want to monitor traffic.

If this is for an event - there's plenty of great contractors/consultants out there that have domain level experience/expertise for this stuff - definitely out of scope for this site.

sfx

 

[coxhaus]

I don’t think he will be able to install portable infrastructure for that many users.
The distance and power requirements will exceed portability.

 

[sfx2000]

for portable installs for large events - it can be done, I've been to IETF and IEEE plenaries where you have 2000+ attendees... it's entirely do-able.

From a logistics perspective, go with a specialist outfit that supports conventions and event - they know what to do, and normally they have the gear and site experience to make it happen - go with someone local if you can...

 

[JPElectron]

Multiple APs

You need multiple APs, but they will have to be spread out, not just all sitting in one place next to each other...

A good "enterprise grade" AP like the Cisco 1142 or Cisco 2602 can easily support 100 clients associated - it only has a Gigabit Ethernet port, so realize even if that many clients are associated, there isn't enough bandwidth from the one Ethernet port to support that many simultaneous downloads. If your requirement is simply end-users surfing to one internal (not on the internet) site, and you don't put allot of flash/graphics on it - that should work just fine.

Other devices like EnGenius or Ubiquiti typically support less simultaneous associations, so you'll need more radios.

Realize that your use-case sounds like a hotel/convention center temporary setup, and since most of those places will have their own in-house wireless already, your going to be competing with their radios :-( In some places that will not be allowed, in others it's just going to add to the wireless interference and data throughput will suffer.

Another way to do this might be to have less APs (or even just one at your booth) with the output power turned down, that way only people wandering in your immediate area would find the signal and can associate, as they wander away they won't put a load on your system anymore.

You can easily setup a captive portal to redirect all web surfing requests to your internally hosted site, one such solution is DNS Redirector, even if you don't intend to connect your network to the real Internet.

You'll also need a server or a router capable of a large DHCP scope. Some routers are limited to 254 addresses, so a Windows server running the DHCP service could accomplish this.

 

[coxhaus]

I would assume you would need 100 or more APs for 2000 to 4000 people. I also assume he is planning on delivering data to all the attendees at the same time since the system is not for internet use. Trying to lay out bundles of cables in short periods of time is going to be an issue. You will need extra cables because you are bound to have some go bad. You will need a good tester to test all this stuff after laying the cables out. He will need power to repeat signals at the 100 meter mark and there will need to be power right there available to handle repeating the signals. Remember you have to string all these cables so people do not walk on them. That means some high latter work and maybe a bucket truck for those really tall ceiling.

I still think portability is exceeded for that many people. Drop the number down to 500 to 1000 and it is probably doable.

Remember the bad times for DHCP will be first thing in the morning and right after lunch. The server will be hammered because none of the machines are permanent wired PCs. They will all come and go.

 

[sfx2000]

Yep - consider loading of 100 clients per AP/band - the Cisco enterprise grade AP's can take the load.

so you figure 20 AP's - seriously consider doing dual band - you can get away with F4 re-use if you plan right.

Gigabit ethernet backhaul - full blown DHCP (linux, Windows Server, MacOS server can handle this very easily).

For the ingress - plan on a dedicated 10G fiber link in to your NOC.

Do not, I repeat, do not, try to do this with consumer gear - go find a specialist that does events.

If you have an event with 2K planned attendees - you might also reach out to the wireless providers in the area for cellular - they'll thank you for it, and depending on the event, they'll probably roll out a couple of COW's and a DAS to keep cellular/pcs services working.