WiFi 300 feet in my neighborhood, line of sight

[DTS]

I have a question similar to this one:

300 feet in my neighborhood, near line of sight | SNBForums

I have a second piece of property on my neighborhood, about 300 feet away more or less. It is not attached, and I can’t run wires between the two. I’d like to have some amount of WiFi.

My property situation is the same, including the distance. The answers in that thread are two years old and I want to check for current advice, as well as add a few specific details of my requirements.

At property A (main residence) I have Comcast Internet with 1 Gbps bandwidth and I'm currently using the Comcast-supplied WiFi router. My relatives are moving into property B located 250 to 300 feet away with an open line of sight.

Two of us use Internet in property A, but the relatives are a family of 7 (5 kids).

How practical will it be to share my Internet with my relatives, assuming everyone wants a good browsing and TV streaming experience?

Does weather affect the signal? Is the bandwidth dramatically reduced when it is raining, for example?

Is a recommendation like the one made in the other thread still the best option?

Tupavco TP542 Dual-Band (13dBi) Outdoor Directional Panel Antenna (Amazon.com)

The Amazon reviews say:

3 different users have reported different distances:
a. 2 blocks ~ 293 yards;
b. 300 yards and it maintain router broadcast data speed of 54 Mps.
c. quarter mile -440 yards

Those are all substantially greater distances than mine.

According to that other thread, I will need the following:

1. WiFi AP at property A that supports an external antenna
2. one outdoor directional antenna and cable for property A
3. one outdoor directional antenna and cable for property B
4. WiFi router at property B

However, I'm not clear if I really need the outdoor directional antenna on both ends or just one. The reviews for that antenna at Amazon suggest it is only needed on one end. If I use it just at one end, which is preferred: property A or property B?

Thank you guys.

 

[bbunge]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BGH83965/?tag=snbforums-20

 

[tgl]

I think what you want is a pair of point-to-point wireless devices. Ubiquiti's NanoBeam 5AC devices would work well; you won't get more than ~500Mbps out of them, but that seems like plenty for this. If your needs are less than that, you could get away with cheaper devices such as their NanoStation line. See this thread for some recent discussion.

 

[sfx2000]

Yes, it's possible and there's a lot of ways to do this...

But consider this - they will be on your network - there perhaps is privacy concerns, and definitely legal concerns, and it might put you in violation of your service provider's terms and conditions...

As the saying goes - the road to h*LL is paved with good intentions...

If they're financially challenged, and lord knows that is a thing these days, there are programs out there that the Service Providers offer that get funding from Local/State/Federal level - and this goes for 5G-Fixed Wireless, Cable Cos, and incumbent DSL providers over copper/fiber. Heck, they can not only get Broadband Access at a very reasonable rate, they can get mobile phone service as well...

Not saying this is the case, but there is the larger audience to consider here...

 

[drinkingbird]

I have a question similar to this one:

300 feet in my neighborhood, near line of sight | SNBForums



My property situation is the same, including the distance. The answers in that thread are two years old and I want to check for current advice, as well as add a few specific details of my requirements.

As others have mentioned, point to point wireless is the way to go. Trying to mess with extending a router's antennas outdoors etc are a pain, probably won't work well, and the cost difference is little to none. You can get a pair of ubiquiti Nanostation Loco for around $120 (a pair would be required as they are for point to point only, no clients). You could try a single TPlink directional outdoor AP and see if that provides them enough signal but honestly I wouldn't even mess with it, they're cheap enough to just get a pair of either brand and have a dedicated wireless backhaul. The nanostation 5AC Loco should be good for 200-300 megs at least which should be plenty, and I would guess most of the TP Link offerings would be similar. Really any of these single antenna directional setups (as long as they are 5Ghz AC) should be in that throughput range and can do that distance easily (outdoors a single unit can do it no problem, but to extend indoors, I'd do a dedicated pair for the backhaul only).

Then you just use your router/AP of choice in each building and as far as those two devices are concerned, they are hardwired to each other. So you could use your ISP router if it is good enough in the main building and a cheap TP Link in AP mode in the remote building. Of course if you wanted to isolate them and have them on their own network, then have that one in router mode (not a bad idea regardless to separate the traffic out).

As far as any ISP terms of service, unless someone reports you, they'll never know or care and since they are relatives an you own both buildings and both properties, I don't think it would even be considered a violation anyway.

To put it another way, consider it two totally separate things - the link between buildings, and the service within each building, totally unrelated to one another (mostly) in that setup.

 

[tgl]

@sfx2000 has a really good point: this is not strictly a technical issue. If you don't want to consider these people as an integral part of your household, or they don't think of themselves that way, then it'd be better for them to have an independent internet connection. Do you want, for example, to be on the hook for the security of their online banking transactions? Or for whether their kids see some online porn? It's tough enough managing such risks for your own family.

 

[DTS]

Thank you, drinkingbird!

 

[DTS]

But consider this - they will be on your network

Not an issue. They're family and I own both properties. From my perspective, it's no different from kids' bedrooms upstairs.

 

[drinkingbird]

Thank you, drinkingbird!

Looking at the offerings out there, certainly seems the Ubiquiti Nanostation 5AC Loco is perfect for you, a pair of those should give you exactly what you need. It does require a bit of knowledge to access the GUI and get set up but should not be anything major and is mostly "set it and forget it". Rain/fog should not have much impact if any at 300 feet. They're $100 a pair direct from Ubiquiti (plus shipping). Note you'll need a couple of 1 gig 24 volt 0.3A or greater Ubiquiti compatible POE injectors too. I'd probably go for the 0.5A one just to be safe. Those are $15 each direct from Ubiquiti or you can find generic off-brand ones on amazon a bit cheaper too. Supposedly their $6 0.3A one will just barely power it but depending on how far your cable run is, it could be a problem, I would never cut it that close.

So do Comcast Router LAN port -> ethernet to POE injector -> ethernet to nanostation 1 (mounted ideally outside but in a window might work too) -> wireless link to nanostation 2 (same comment about outdoor/window) -> ethernet to POE injector 2 -> ethernet to whatever router/AP you get for the remote building (WAN port).

You can try window mounting them first assuming you have a window in each place facing each other nearly directly but that will cut your signal a lot and reduce speed. Better to mount them outside.

I mean it sounds like a lot, but a 300 foot trench for a small low voltage wire wouldn't be that awful. Though you may end up spending as much on the wire and making waterproof entrances into the house etc as you would on the two APs. So unless you need greater than 300-400 megs of throughput, may not be worth the trouble. In reality, that wireless link will prevent them from taking up all your download speed (upload still could be a problem, may need to use QOS to limit them there).

 

[tgl]

The one thing I would add is that aligning the antennas is finickier than you might think. While you don't necessarily have to get them exactly right, performance will suffer if they're not. Ubiquiti's GUI provides a lot of readouts that will help you with this, but there is no substitute for patience during installation. In turn, this means you need to pay attention to having a solid mounting scheme for the units, or the first windstorm that comes along will play hob with your careful efforts.

 

[drinkingbird]

The one thing I would add is that aligning the antennas is finickier than you might think. While you don't necessarily have to get them exactly right, performance will suffer if they're not. Ubiquiti's GUI provides a lot of readouts that will help you with this, but there is no substitute for patience during installation. In turn, this means you need to pay attention to having a solid mounting scheme for the units, or the first windstorm that comes along will play hob with your careful efforts.

True enough, although 300 feet with 45 degree directional antennas is probably not going to be terribly sensitive.

The included mounting solution is basically a zip tie, they assume you are going to pole mount it. There are various articulating mounts out there, but depending on the orientation of the two buildings and what you are able to mount to, can probably just put them both flat on a wall, pointing at each other, and not have to fiddle too much with alignment at that distance. But personally I'd probably get a couple good solid mounts in order to be able to align them fairly well and keep them secure.

 

[tgl]

True enough, although 300 feet with 45 degree directional antennas is probably not going to be terribly sensitive.

I dunno; my NanoBeam 2ACs have the same rated antenna gain (13dBi) and they were plenty of trouble to align at less than 30 feet. I was not expecting to have to be careful at that range, which is why I'm emphasizing the point now. Don't expect to just set them on a windowsill and get full performance.

I notice that one big physical difference between the NanoBeams and the NanoStation Locos is that the NanoBeams have a built-in ball joint mount that allows accurate alignment even if the pole you attached them to isn't in the best possible orientation. Does that mean that the Locos are built so that they don't need careful alignment? I doubt it; this is physics not marketing.

 

[sfx2000]

At the end of the day - this isn't much different use-case than the Camper/RV or Trucker scenario

There are kits for this...

ALFA Network WiFi Camp Pro 3 - Dual Band Wi-Fi (2.4 or 5 GHz) repeater kit - R36AH + Tube-UAC2 + Antenna for RV, Boat, Camper

The ALFA WiFi Camp Pro 3 has finally arrived! This all-in-one kit picks up and repeats a weak Wi-Fi signal as your own personal hotspot. The ALFA WiFi Camp Pro 3 is the perfect Dual-Band solution for boats, RVs, campers, or larger properties looking to increase the range of an existing WiFi...

store.rokland.com

Turn-key solution...

 

[sfx2000]

True enough, although 300 feet with 45 degree directional antennas is probably not going to be terribly sensitive.

The included mounting solution is basically a zip tie, they assume you are going to pole mount it. There are various articulating mounts out there, but depending on the orientation of the two buildings and what you are able to mount to, can probably just put them both flat on a wall, pointing at each other, and not have to fiddle too much with alignment at that distance. But personally I'd probably get a couple good solid mounts in order to be able to align them fairly well and keep them secure.

Given the range - 2.4GHz - and 2 RF chains, which means two antennas on each end for N144 - even with patch antennas, that's a challenge... it's a 100 meters, and that's ok, but it does matter...

20MHz channels will give the best MCS rates at that range, and one thing to consider is airtime and chip delay.... Back of the napkin here - even with a two-antenna 2*2:2 solution - there's going to be a hit - if one sees 20 Mbit/Sec across that link, I'll be impressed to be honest...

 

[tgl]

Back of the napkin here - even with a two-antenna 2*2:2 solution - there's going to be a hit - if one sees 20 Mbit/Sec across that link, I'll be impressed to be honest...

Um ... I'm getting ~65Mbps with just a 10MHz channel. My units did scale up to about 4x that with a 40MHz channel; but I don't need more than 65, so I have them at minimum channel width in hopes of reducing noise. The 5AC units should have the option of an 80MHz channel for another 2x throughput, if your noise environment permits.

 

[sfx2000]

Um ... I'm getting ~65Mbps with just a 10MHz channel. My units did scale up to about 4x that with a 40MHz channel; but I don't need more than 65, so I have them at minimum channel width in hopes of reducing noise. The 5AC units should have the option of an 80MHz channel for another 2x throughput, if your noise environment permits.

PHY rates perhaps - but real world TCP and UDP throughput at the application layer... the MCS rates for 11n/11ac can only do so much - one gets to a point where the shannon limit rules...

Seriously - it's a 10logR hit on distance with omni's - we can add a bit of gain with patch antennas, but that gain not only improves the signal, but also the noise floor, so SINR doesn't help much...

 

[sfx2000]

PHY rates perhaps - but real world TCP and UDP throughput at the application layer... the MCS rates for 11n/11ac can only do so much - one gets to a point where the shannon limit rules...

And just to note - minstrel/minstrel-ht is going to back off to keep the MCS rates sane over time...

As I mentioned - OP should investigate alternatives... there's a time where things are not going to be a good end-user experience at the far end of the link

 

[drinkingbird]

Given the range - 2.4GHz - and 2 RF chains, which means two antennas on each end for N144 - even with patch antennas, that's a challenge... it's a 100 meters, and that's ok, but it does matter...

20MHz channels will give the best MCS rates at that range, and one thing to consider is airtime and chip delay.... Back of the napkin here - even with a two-antenna 2*2:2 solution - there's going to be a hit - if one sees 20 Mbit/Sec across that link, I'll be impressed to be honest...

The 5AC Loco is 5ghz 2 stream. PHY rate I believe is 833 (something unique with the airmax protocol I think) at 80mhz. Very easy to get 400-500M+ out of it especially at 100 feet.

 

[drinkingbird]

And just to note - minstrel/minstrel-ht is going to back off to keep the MCS rates sane over time...

As I mentioned - OP should investigate alternatives... there's a time where things are not going to be a good end-user experience at the far end of the link

These units are excellent and are in use all over the place for exactly this use case. I've seen them do 500M actual throughput at over 500 feet. For the money, can't really be beat.

 

[tgl]

PHY rates perhaps - but real world TCP and UDP throughput at the application layer... the MCS rates for 11n/11ac can only do so much - one gets to a point where the shannon limit rules...

[shrug...] I'm measuring iperf3 throughput. There's certainly an argument to be made that OP's case of 300ft through open air will be worse than my case of 30ft through three 100-year-old oak floors, but handwaving about the Shannon limit isn't going to make that argument.