2.4 Client Limit

[Svenskmat]

I have lots of 2.4 I.O.T. Clients and I wanted to know if there is a limit on the number of clients.

I found an old thread about this. http://www.snbforums.com/threads/rt-ac3200-limit-on-the-number-of-2-4gb-clients.47019/post-486215

Most of my I.O.T clients don't stream so it is not a concern for bandwidth.

Does anyone know of a similar limit for the RT-AC5300?

Thanks

 

[L&LD]

On consumer routers, we have around thirty-two clients maximum per radio.

Give or take.

 

[Tech9]

I have lots of 2.4 I.O.T. Clients

How many is lots? You have 2 routers with separate 2.4GHz radios. Any chance to spread around the IoT devices between the routers?

 

[Svenskmat]

I have more then 32 clients especially if our phones jump over to 2.4.(maybe 40 or so 2.4 clients) So if I bind Some of the clients to the node, the 32 or so limit should not be a concern? Is that correct?

Thanks

 

[Tech9]

Is that correct?

Yes. The Router will handle some, the Node the rest. You have 2x 2.4GHz radios.

I have more then 32 clients

Most home routers support 16-32 clients per radio. I believe 2x RT-AC5300 routers will handle yours. If not, come back here for a different solution.

especially if our phones jump over to 2.4

Disable SmartConnect and high-speed devices will stay on 5GHz band(s). SmartConnect is not very smart anyway. Take better control of your devices.

 

[thiggins]

First, are you having problems with devices not connecting?
The 16 - 32 "limits" others describe are not necessarily hard limits. Router DHCP servers will handle > 200 devices in a Class C network. Consumer routers will usually not refuse to associate devices.

The "limit" is more about performance. But that depends on what the devices are requiring. IoT devices that are idle most of the time and use little bandwidth when they're active don't place much load on an AP.

 

[Svenskmat]

First, are you having problems with devices not connecting?
The 16 - 32 "limits" others describe are not necessarily hard limits. Router DHCP servers will handle > 200 devices in a Class C network. Consumer routers will usually not refuse to associate devices.

The "limit" is more about performance. But that depends on what the devices are requiring. IoT devices that are idle most of the time and use little bandwidth when they're active don't place much load on an AP.

I understand about the number of IP's that the DHCP can assign, however I saw in another post that Asus limits the number of 2.4 clients. (see link in first post) "Asus confirmed via email that the ac3200 has a chipset limitation of 25 2.4 GHz devices"

It seems that there is a point when additional clients come in range, others drop off.

 

[Tech9]

Asus confirmed via email that the ac3200 has a chipset limitation of 25 2.4 GHz devices

Sound like manufacturer limitation for specific chipsets. Here is the Netgear statement:

How many WiFi client devices can my NETGEAR router support?

The number of WiFi client devices that your NETGEAR router can simultaneously support varies depending on the model. For information about Orbi systems, see How many devices can my Orbi system support? Most current NETGEAR routers use 802.11ax (WiFi 6) technology. If you have a NETGEAR WiFi 6...

kb.netgear.com

 

[thiggins]

I checked with NETGEAR. Turns out some older chipsets do have a connection cap due to limited memory.

There is no connection limit for Wi-Fi 6 and 6E products.

So for the current generation of routers and APs, any connection limits are either being enforced by design or are rule-of-thumb / best practice guidance.

It all depends on what you're trying to do. 50 IoT devices that are sleeping most of the time and have very low bandwidth needs when they're awake use much lower airtime than 5 IP cameras that are constantly on. But even most IP cam systems now are motion driven. So they are not using much airtime when idle.

Even streaming is a misnomer. If you look at network activity for a typical stream, you'll see a large intermittent downloads, not a continuous stream. The other day I had to interrupt our network while my wife was watching Netflix. It took about 3 minutes before the show stopped.

The biggest airtime users are large file transfers/downloads. Those are as continuous as it gets.

 

[Tech9]

What 50-100 IoT devices are used for in a typical home? Anyone to give an example?

 

[thiggins]

Ok, so 20. The point is the same.

 

[Svenskmat]

We have lots of lights that are on smart sockets, some Nest Camera's. We have some early Chromecast that are 2.4 only as well as some speakers. It does not take long to get that number

 

[elorimer]

The guy in the McMansion across the street from me when I was chatting with him after Isaias rolled through bragged that he had almost 150 wifi devices, mostly lighting controls and bulbs. His backup generator was droning in the background, and I thought a bit about asking him if he saw the connection between his carbon footprint, and the downed trees and power outage.

 

[jegesq]

On consumer routers, we have around thirty-two clients maximum per radio.

Give or take.

I come late to this discussion, but if I understand L&LD's answer in post #2 above, he says the limit for most consumer routers is 32 clients connected on 2.4ghz band "per radio."

Does that mean, for example, that using an Asus GT-BE98 Pro router, which has four separate radio units that each operate on the 2.4 ghz band, that one could then connect 32 x 4 (or 128) 2.4ghz client devices to that router concurrently without overloading either the hardware or firmware?

I ask because in my quest to automate my entire home, I now have well over 120 IoT client devices (and actually way, way more "connected" IoT devices than just pure "wifi" stuff, since I'm also using 60+ Yolink LORA devices, more than 65 Lutron Caseta switches and dimmers, which use Lutron's proprietary Clear Connect wireless range, and a bunch of Zigbee and BLE devices as well. But for actual 2.4ghz wifi devices, including light bulbs, LED strips, outdoor plugs, string lights, robot vacuums, and just other IoT stuff, I've got well over 120+ actual 2.4ghz wifi devices up and running.

I also have several NAS'es, we have a bunch of laptops, tablets, and streaming TV's, but all of that is running quite happily on 5ghz, so I am not at all concerned about that stuff.

But because as I've continued to add more and more IOT devices over the past year or so, the more connected "things" there are, the more often there have been seemingly random disconnects, mostly with wifi bulbs (Wiz bulbs if you must know), as well as Aqara FP2 Presence sensors (I have 6 of these in various rooms, they require 2.4ghz, and when they stay connected they are really great, allowing one to set up specific zones in a room for various automations and lighting, but when they disconnect they are difficult at best to deal with). In short, I have a ton of 2.4ghz devices, and a lot of other radio transmissions in or near the 2.4ghz band (with Zigbee and BLE) that I'm not sure whether the disconnects are due to radio interference and noise, or simply due to limitations in the Asus hardware and/or firmware.

This is the hardware/software I'm using: My main router is an Asus GT-BE98 Pro (located upstairs near my Spectrum supplied Hitron DocCis3.1 modem, 1Gig down, 40Mbps up). The router is connected via a Moca 2.5Gb coax adapter to another Asus GT BE98 Pro via ethernet port, which is located downstairs, and set to AP mode, and broadcasting it's own 4 separate SSID's, i.e., one 2.4gh, one 5ghz, and two 6ghz ssids).

Both the router and the AP are each broadcasting their own separate IOT SSID's (upstairs is "Asus-IOT" and downstairs is "AsusDown-IOT"). Add to this, that I also have set up an Asus GT-AXE16000 which connected to the router (not the AP) wirelessly as a AI mesh node, which is located in another part of our downstairs. The router's 2.4ghz channel is set to 20Mhz, assigned to Channel 1; the AP is also set to 20Mhz, and assigned to Channel 6.

I am also following Tech9's advice in terms of the "Professional" settings on both router and AP for 2.4ghz, i.e.,

In Wireless - Professional:
Roaming Assistant - disabled (let devices connect at any possible signal level)
Preamble Type - Long (may improve connection in high interference environments)
Enable TX Bursting - disabled (applies for 802.11g clients only, non standard)
Enable WMM APSD - disabled (may cause issues with some devices)
Modulation Scheme - 802.11n (Turbo/NitroQAM is non standard specs)
Airtime Fairness - disabled (most IoT are inactive for long periods of time)
User MU-MIMO - disabled (doesn't apply for 802.11n at 2.4GHz)
Explicit Beamforming - disabled (no 802.11n device supports it)
Universal Beamforming - disabled (non standard attempt with no device feedback)
TX Power Adjustment - Performance (max power possible for max range)

n Wireless - General:
SmartConnect - disabled (separate SSID for 2.4GHz and 5GHz)
Wireless Mode - Auto
Channel Bandwidth - 20MHz (don't use 20/40 in dense Wi-Fi environments)
Control Channel - Fixed (select the channel with higher available bandwidth, not necessarily 1-6-11)
Authentication Method - WPA2 Personal (WPA3 needs PMF enabled and few IoT devices support WPA3)
WPA Encryption - AES
Protective Management Frames - disabled (may not be compatible with all devices)

In any event, what I've now done is to assign "manual" (or static) IP addresses for about 50 or so of my IOT devices (including every one of my 2.4ghz wifi light bulbs and LED strips), and several other devices, including my Aqara Presence sensors that sometimes would disconnect. All with the idea of testing to see if using static or manual assigned IP's for these devices will help them remain more stable and connected.

So, I suppose my very long-winded way of asking a question, assuming you've stuck around this far, is this: Do the Asus GT-BE98 Pro's actually have a real, hard-coded limit to the number of 2.4ghz client devices that can be connected at any given time?

And a subquestion, I suppose is this: Is there any other setting that anyone is aware of that can be tweaked to help 2.4ghz IoT devices remain connected and stable on the network?

Any and all thought, input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tech9]

input or suggestions

You have 2x 2.4GHz radios on your network and all your >120 IoT devices connect to one of them. With so many 2.4GHz clients instability when using home routers is not uncommon. You may want to look at business APs for High-Density applications dedicated to your IoTs. Something like Omada EAP660 HD with 4-stream 2.4GHz radio 26dBm power (FCC) and 4dBi antennas (30dBm EIRP).

 

[jegesq]

Tech9,

Thanks for the reply. While I appreciate the input, I'm a bit confused about the benefit of using the Omada device you've suggested.

The BE98 Pro models that I currently am using each have "4x4 2.4GHz 4096 QAM" radios, capable of 20/40 Mhz. So doesn't each have a "4-stream" radio? And doesn't "4-stream" simply refer to the number of receive-transmit antennas, which essentially describes "spatial streams" or the ability of the radio to send different information on each of the four antennas, effectively increasing the data capacity over 2.x2? So how would changing out, or adding, the Omada 4x4 AP instead of (or in addition to) using my Asus hardware provide any greater stablility to keep my IoT devices' connected and online (or rather keep them from randomly disconnecting)?

I've looked at the specs of the TP-Link Omada, and honestly, I do not see how that hardware would improve things over my current setup. Aside from the financial cost (switching or adding Omadas would require significant financial outlay and likely also require scrapping at least one of my BE98Pros and my AXE-16000), I do not see any real difference or upgrade in terms of hardware specifications. While I could continue to use at least one of my BE98 Pros as router if I just wanted to use the EAP660's as AP's without SDN, to gain full advantage of the Omada I'd need to get a new router, purchase at least 3 Omadas (to replace all three of the locations where I now have 2.4Ghz radios), buy several POE switches as well as SDN controllers, and learn an entirely new software set up. I'd also need to invest in new hardwire Ethernet cabling to connect at least two of the Omadas in locations where I do not now have Ethernet. Not to mention essentially scrapping all three Asus routers (sure someone might be willing to buy them, but I woud not recoup anywhere close to what I paid). And if I used the BE98 Pro simply as a router, that would not allow me to use the SDN software (incompatible with Asus), and while the Omada could still be web-manaaged, I'd likely need to turn off the Asus 2.4 and 5Ghz radios (all except 6ghz) to avoid broadcast interference with the Omadas. And even if there was a slight benefit for 2.4Ghz clients (which I'm not seeing), the Omada, as a WiFi 6 device simply looks inferior when it comes to 5Ghz WiFi-7 on the Asus Be98 Pros. And lastly, Omada has no 6Ghz at all.

So what am I missing here? What benefit, if any, would the Omada product you have suggested provide for my 2.4Ghz IoT devices that I'm not already getting from the Asus hardware I'm currently using?

Again, appreciate your suggestion, but if you can explain or offer any other insights, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[degrub]

Not mentioning any specific vendor, a single 4x4 radio can handle 1 4x4 client or 2 2x2 clients or 4 1x1 clients or 1 2x2 and 2 1x1 clients in the same time slice. Physical reality may reduce that capability. So the math of 32 clients x 4 radios doesn't work out that way. For absolute highest bandwidth a dedicated 4x4 radio talking with a dedicated 4x4 radio is best. Hence, the dedicated radio for wireless backhaul approach if ethernet cabling is not possible. Coupled with the radio client limitations is the speed of switching between clients, memory dedicated, and on-chip managing the packets to/from the radio. The SMB and business class APs are designed for a higher density client environment with minimal RF power overlap between AP locations. More APs at lower power. Consumer gear, like ASUS, tend to maximize transmit power with the idea of one device covering the house.

What are the wifi capabilities of your IOT devices ? 1x1 or 2x2 ? and what is the mix in the population of clients ?

What is the physical size and layout of your building and the physical placement of the radios ? A rough scaled plot plan showing walls is very useful for generating a RF "heat map" showing the signal levels across the building layout.

It is very easy to create your own RF congestion and increased base noise level, particularly on the 2.4 GHz band, with too many consumer APs/wifi routers active.

i went from one wifi router trying to cover 3000 sqr ft over two levels, wooden construction, US, on only the 2.4GHz band ( it almost made it) to using 4 APs on the 5GHz band with complete coverage/minimal overlap and no 2.4GHz ( 2 APs would have covered the 2.4 GHz). SMB Cisco gear. Set and forget for the last 10 years. No issues at all.

So, depending on what your layout looks like and the new heat map, keeping your asus gear for the 5 & 6 GHz clients and adding 1-2 2.4GHz SMB APs placed based on a new heat map may address your issue with IOT client drop outs and clean up the RF environment. Use of appropriate POE power injectors for 1-2 APs negates the need for an expensive switch.

Just an idea.

 

[visortgw]

@jegesq: Or, why not try using AiMesh for both the wired (via MoCA) node and the wireless node? Possibly eliminate one of the two 2.4 GHz IoT networks (or configure both via Network (formerly Guest Network Pro) page) and allow the IoT devices to find their best connection to router or one of the AiMesh nodes — just don't forget that you need to explicitly push each guest network to each desired node using the AiMesh settings page within the Network page for each guest/IoT network as desired. Also, since both the GT-BE98 Pro and GT-AXE16000 are 3006.102.x firmware capable, you could potentially add wired devices to the IoT network since VLANs are supported on both the router and AiMesh nodes. Just a suggestion based upon my experience with 50+ 2.4 GHz IoT devices in my home...

 

[Tech9]

I'm a bit confused

I see. The idea is to add dedicated business class HD APs for your IoTs only (2.4GHz radio enabled only) and continue using whatever else you have for your other devices. HD APs are for high-density deployments and support more clients per radio than home routers. Don't look at the specs only, the hardware inside and the application design is important.

full advantage of the Omada

I never said anything about replacing of what you have. Just add 2x extra APs to support your IoT... obsession. You don't need anything else from Omada and the APs in question come with 12V power adapter in the box.

 

[jegesq]

@Tech9, @visortgw, and @degrub,

All interesting ideas, and clearly I need to think about adding a SMB AP's that could provide an alternative broadcast structure for IoT devices, and I very much appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I need to think about how to best physically deploy and design this to achieve best results. I will continue to research and post an update. Thanks for your help and input. Much appreciated.