A few questions from a new guy..

[LeeNYPost]

First I want to say hello to everyone as I just registered. Tim, this site is fantastic and you have been a huge asset to me as I have encountered problems with wireless networks so thank you very much for all your efforts in educating and helping people!!

okay, I am about to have wideband internet installed in my apartment which is rated at 50mbps/5mbps and I have began purchasing things to set up a new network once installation is complete. Here is what i have:

1 Dlink 8port gigabit ethernet switch (unmanaged)
1 Dlink dir-655
1 Linksys wrt54g2
1 Netgear wndr3700

2 laptops connecting with N wireless cards
One desktop connecting with Gigabit wired connection
2 xbox 360's connecting currently via wireless g adapters
1 printer connecting via wireless g
1 nintendo wii connecting via wireless g
1 nintendo dsi connecting via wireless g
2 palm pre phones connecting via wireless g

I have completed site survey and know where I will place all routers in the home. I have read all of Tims articles on wifi security speed reduction and adding access points to routers, etc... so my question is this.

If i use the dir-655 as my router and use the wrt54g2 router as an access point, can i set the dir-655 on wpa2/aes and connect just the 2 laptops running wireless n cards, while connecting all of the g running devices to the wrt54g2 and set security on that AP with WPA will all devices be able to communicate properly as if they were on the same router and since my access point will not be using AES will that at all affect the full N speeds that should be going out to my laptops through my router (dir-655)?

Next month i will be getting wireless N adapters for both 360's and that is why I have the netgear router waiting in the wings. I must use 2 separate ip addresses for the 360's otherwise they conflict under certain circumstances so One ip address will serve the dir-655 / wrt54g2 network while the other ip will serve the netgear router.

Sorry if this post seems confusing or long. My mind has been struggling to put everything together properly. Any help would be greatly appreciated and if there is something anyone needs clarification or more info on just let me know. Thank you in advance for your time.

 

[pender]

As long as the router supports uPNP port forwarding, DHCP leasing and OpenNAT for XBL, which the 655 does and so do most new routers, both 360s can log into XBL and play online at the same time. If you use Static IP addresses on your LAN and disable uPNP PF, it is guaranteed to fail. Both DHCP and Upnp are enabled by default on the 655.

The idea you are trying to suggest with the double gateway (or nested gateway) will not have a benefit because they are on the same VLAN every though their subnets differ - a NAT merely separates the two. Doing such a setup is likely to introduce problems unless the Netgear is in the 655's DMZ.

In short, the second 802.11n Netgear router is not needed because the 655's coverage is large enough for an apartment. You might see that 5Ghz band has less interference in an apartment environment, so you should get the Dlink DIR 825 instead of the 655 since you are flushed with cash.

One router as a gateway is all you need and the 655 addresses the XBL OpenNAT issues. Just be sure your modem does not have a firewall builtin to it like some DSL router/modem combos do. If it does, try to enable bridged mode on the modem - this is usually only the the case with DSL service.

The 825 is a two radio dual band 802.11n router that supports different encryptions (or the same on each of the two networks). If your laptops have 5Ghz 802.11n adapters (instead of just the 2.4Ghz band), you can get rid of the WRT54G 11g router and set the 825's 5ghz band to 802.11n traffic and the 2.4Ghz band to 11g traffic without a performance hit because of the dual radio adapters in the router. Even if your laptops only have 2.4Ghz 802.11n adapters, they can still connect to the 11g 2.4Ghz network in the proposed setup at 11g speeds. If you find the laptops are too slow, then buy a WRT54G or whatever 11g device and set the 825s radios to 11n only and the WRT54G to handle all the 11g clients.

As for your other question about security encryption on different wireless networks, since you use different access point devices, the 11n speeds will not be hampered when 11g clients connect to the 11g AP.

There are also store bought wireless ethernet bridges you can buy that are dual band and work with any ethernet device like a 360 or computer.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833162029
Linksys WGA600N and WET610N and DLink DAP 1522 are other examples and differ from the buffalo because they can be used as an Wireless AP.

 

[LeeNYPost]

Thank you for the response. I had such a problem with the 2 xboxes on one router. it would work fine if two people were online playing a different game or in a different room, however my problem arose from call of duty world at war. What happens is my buddy comes over and signs into his xbl on one xbox and i sign into my xbl on the other one. if we are in different game rooms or not sharing a voicechat communication all is well, but if we go into the same game room together and play in the same exact online match the signal degrades in a matter of minutes and we both end up getting disconnected from xbl. This occurred while using the dir-655. I bought the wrt54g2 and paid for a second ip in order to correct this problem and it has worked flawlessly every since the 2 xbox's have been operating on completely seperate external ip's and seperate routers. My guess would be that even though the router supports 2 xbox's it can not handle sending and receiving information from the same source at the same time at such a high demand as online gaming requires. I tried everything from port opening and forwarding to placing one xbox in DMZ and I contacted D-link numerous times but none of their suggestions changed the problem. I have not encountered this issue with any other game yet but I just went out and bought new hardware so that I wouldn't have to deal with it if the problem happened to arise with any other titles. I greatly appreciate your time and response and I am very glad to know that I will still get my N speeds with the g router connected.

Last question I have is since my printer will be connected on the g access point and my laptops will be connecting through the n router will i be able to print from my laptop to the printer without issue? My guess would be yes since they will be on the same subnet regardless but I would appreciate a little reassurance as I move forward. Thanks again so much.

 

[LeeNYPost]

I just realized I didn't 100% clarify my reasoning for the netgear router. As I explained in the last post I am currently connecting 1 xbox to the wrt54g2 but once the wireless n adapters come out next month for the 360 I want both 360's to use N for the increased throughput so I bought the netgear as a second N router. the dir655 will power one xbox and the netgear the other while i will move the wrt54g2 to be an access point under the dir-655's subnet and it will handle all of the clients i have that can not be upgraded to N.

 

[LeeNYPost]

Pender, with the quote below...

"The idea you are trying to suggest with the double gateway (or nested gateway) will not have a benefit because they are on the same VLAN every though their subnets differ - a NAT merely separates the two. Doing such a setup is likely to introduce problems unless the Netgear is in the 655's DMZ."

Are you saying that even though the two routers will be connected to separate external ip addresses and one will not be able to connect to the others internal network that they will somehow still create conflict?

 

[LeeNYPost]

If the two router setup works then that is great but obviously not ideal because you have to pay for the second static WAN IP.

I am curious as the how your LAN is setup. Does it resemble this

ISP
|
Modem
|
Switch
/ \
655 -cable- 54G2

Your diagram is correct except there is no cable connecting the 2 routers. It is

ISP
|
modem
|
switch
/ \
655 54G2

Each router picks up a separate external ip address automatically.

 

[LeeNYPost]

sorry, dont know why the drawing is reverting back to the left hand side but i am sure you get what i am trying to draw.

 

[pender]

If the two router setup works then that is great but obviously not ideal because you have to pay for the second static WAN IP.

I am curious as the how your LAN is setup. Does it resemble this

WAN (ISP internet)
|
Modem
|
Switch --- 54G2 --- 360 ---- printer
|
655
|
360
|
Laptops

Where there is no cable between a LAN port of the 655 and 54G2 bridging the two gateways. If there was a cable between the LAN ports of the routers and there were on the same subnet, it is likely they'd run into DHCP lease issues

So I am guessing there is no such cable just like the diagram above. If so, the firewall will prevent the laptops from connecting to the printer because even though the devices are all in your home, they are technically separated by the WAN (or the internet) and the firewalls of both gateways are preventing network resource access.

To fix this with the current setup move the printer to the 655 side or you can have a VPN server (PPTP) Windows computer on the 54G2 LAN that enables access to the printer through VPN.

I would just move the printer or buy 11n Wireless Ethernet Bridges now like the ones listed in the previous post and revert to the one 655 gateway and be done with it. Video games and VOIP for XBL is not bandwidth intensive (can work on a 1Mbps/512kbps internet connection just fine with two gaming consoles). With 802.11n bridges for the 360's, the 655 should not hiccup and if it does then there must be some strong interference or obstruction.

The 655 also supports a strange type of USB printer sharing which is good and bad and requires client software. The good is that scanner functions work as if it was directly connected via USB (impossible with IP port method), the bad is the client software required for printing. Use this if it is not a network printer, but you can always set the 655 to 802.11n/g mode if the printer is b/g only and power off the printer when it is not in use so 11n network throughput is not reduced.

So most would recommend getting two 802.11n adapters for the 360s first, which you were going to buy anyway and hold off buying the netgear for now. Use one gateway only (the 655) and use the 54G2 as a supplement 11g WAP for other clients but not as a gateway, as a additional Wireless Access Point.

If it still hiccups, then buy the netgear and go back to the strange setup you have now, but replacing the 54G2 with the netgear. Or add the netgear butt a WAP and use the 5Ghz band if 2.4Ghz interference was affecting performance all along.

As for the 11n adapter for the Xboxs, get the USB adapter which will sell for $100, or get a 802.11n wireless bridge for $20 less and is reusable with ethernet devices.

 

[pender]

Sorry, I wasn't finished the first diagram post and it got screwed up when I submitted it by accident instead of previewing the post,

Please disgard the incomplete post.

 

[pender]

Oh Okay, so printing from one router's LAN to the other will definitely not work because it is separated by the WAN or internet even though all the devices are in your household. You would need to VPN to the 54G2 side or move the printer to the 655 or vice versa with the laptops.

If you don't believe me, try pinging the printer's IP address from the 655 side. Be sure that the printer IP is not the same as a client on the 655 side or you will generate a false positive.

 

[LeeNYPost]

If the two router setup works then that is great but obviously not ideal because you have to pay for the second static WAN IP.

I am curious as the how your LAN is setup. Does it resemble this

WAN (ISP internet)
|
Modem
|
Switch --- 54G2 --- 360 ---- printer
|
655
|
360
|
Laptops

Where there is no cable between a LAN port of the 655 and 54G2 bridging the two gateways. If there was a cable between the LAN ports of the routers and there were on the same subnet, it is likely they'd run into DHCP lease issues

So I am guessing there is no such cable just like the diagram above. If so, the firewall will prevent the laptops from connecting to the printer because even though the devices are all in your home, they are technically separated by the WAN (or the internet) and the firewalls of both gateways are preventing network resource access.

To fix this with the current setup move the printer to the 655 side or you can have a VPN server (PPTP) Windows computer on the 54G2 LAN that enables access to the printer through VPN.

I would just move the printer or buy 11n Wireless Ethernet Bridges now like the ones listed in the previous post and revert to the one 655 gateway and be done with it. Video games and VOIP for XBL is not bandwidth intensive (can work on a 1Mbps/512kbps internet connection just fine with two gaming consoles). With 802.11n bridges for the 360's, the 655 should not hiccup and if it does then there must be some strong interference or obstruction.

The 655 also supports a strange type of USB printer sharing which is good and bad and requires client software. The good is that scanner functions work as if it was directly connected via USB (impossible with IP port method), the bad is the client software required for printing. Use this if it is not a network printer, but you can always set the 655 to 802.11n/g mode if the printer is b/g only and power off the printer when it is not in use so 11n network throughput is not reduced.

So most would recommend getting two 802.11n adapters for the 360s first, which you were going to buy anyway and hold off buying the netgear for now. Use one gateway only (the 655) and use the 54G2 as a supplement 11g WAP for other clients but not as a gateway, as a additional Wireless Access Point.

If it still hiccups, then buy the netgear and go back to the strange setup you have now, but replacing the 54G2 with the netgear.

As for the 11n adapter for the Xboxs, get the USB adapter which will sell for $100, or get a 802.11n wireless bridge for $20 less and is reusable with ethernet devices.

I got you. My intended setup would have the dir655 as the router and the 54g2 as an access point using a lan port to lan port ethernet cable to connect the 2. the laptops will be accessing the network wirelessly through the dir and my printer since it is only g would access the network through the 54g2. should i be able to print wirelessly from the laptop to the printer since they will be on the same subnet? wouldnt the information get sent wirelessly from the laptop to the dir655 and then pass through the ethernet to the 54g2 and the 54g2 would then wirelessly transmit to the printer?

 

[LeeNYPost]

Oh Okay, so printing from one router's LAN to the other will definitely not work because it is separated by the WAN or internet even though all the devices are in your household. You would need to VPN to the 54G2 side or move the printer to the 655 or vice versa with the laptops.

If you don't believe me, try pinging the printer's IP address from the 655 side. Be sure that the printer IP is not the same as a client on the 655 side or you will generate a false positive.

I always thought that if the DHCP server was turned off on the WAP that the router would generate the ip for my printer using dhcp once it connected to the internet through the WAP and once associated to the router the information could be passed through. So I would not be able to print then. I believe what you are saying, I have not tried this setup so I have no reason at all not to believe you. I'm just here asking folks now so when I change my whole network around next Saturday I won't waste any time.

In your opinion then I should have the printer associate with the dir directly and just turn it off whenever i am not printing as to not slow down all of my N devices connected to it since my idea of having them connect through the wap will not work, correct?

 

[pender]

I am very confused. If there is only one gateway in your setup and the 54G2 is only a WAP, then Laptops can print while connected to the 655.

Earlier you said that the 655 and 54G2 were acting as two separate gateways with two different External WAN IPs and there was no bridge or VPN between the two separate LANs.

In the latter setup, a computer on one gateway can not access any network resources on the other gateway because there is a firewall and the WAN between the two. Even though you have a switch between the modem and the two gateways, the Firewall of each gateway restricts access to the other LAN.

I wish someone else would confirm this for you.

 

[LeeNYPost]

I am very confused. If there is only one gateway in your setup and the 54G2 is only a WAP, then Laptops can print while connected to the 655.

Earlier you said that the 655 and 54G2 were acting as two separate gateways with two different External WAN IPs and there was no bridge or VPN between the two separate LANs.

In the latter setup, a computer on one gateway can not access any network resources on the other gateway because there is a firewall and the WAN between the two. Even though you have a switch between the modem and the two gateways, the Firewall of each gateway restricts access to the other LAN.

I wish someone else would confirm this for you.

You just confirmed it for me perfectly. I believe I confused you by giving you my current configuration in one post and the configuration I am switching too next week in another post. I'm sorry if I caused you confusion and I thank you very much for your explanations and helpfulness. Once I change my configuration the dir will be the gateway and the 54g2 will be the WAP. Printer will be connected wirelessly to the WAP and laptops I wish to print from will be connected wirelessly to the gateway. I just wanted to make sure the laptops would be able to communicate with the printer in that setup before I proceeded and I believe you have just confirmed that they can. Thank you and again my apologies for confusing you. I think that occurred when I began explaining my reasoning for having two separate external ip's in order to play call of duty simultaniously on my xbox's.

 

[pender]

Yes, with only one gateway, the 655 clients can print to the 54G2 printer without any issue.