Article Discussion: How Many SSIDs Is Too Many?

[stevech]

What constitutes a well designed wireless network? Strictly being unified under one SSID?

>> too complex to summarize here in a few sentences. Solutions range from simple to complex. Average residential user has a simple problem for a 3000 sq. ft. home, or less.

So why is it that I read that it's the client that determines when/if it should change to a stronger signal?

Why? It's because the IEEE and WiFi standards for client mobility (roaming) were undefined for way too long. Now there are some standards, but most home users don't need mobility management that is akin to moving between cell sites optimally in a mobile cellular network. The WiFi alliance does not require mobility management. Not gong to change any time soon.

So some client devices do better than others. And that sometimes depends on what access device is used, and on and on.

 

[speedlever]

I find it confusing when some say a single SSID is a sign of a unified, well designed wireless network (which would imply the router/AP controls all access) and then when all is said and done, client mobility still gets determined on the client side? Or am I misreading this?

I get that a single SSID is preferred for multiple reasons. And yet when the client is sticky... then what? I'm happy to learn the error of my ways, but I have yet to figure out how to work around a sticky client other than using dedicated SSIDs and manually changing to the stronger signal.

 

[thiggins]

I find it confusing when some say a single SSID is a sign of a unified, well designed wireless network (which would imply the router/AP controls all access) and then when all is said and done, client mobility still gets determined on the client side? Or am I misreading this?

I get that a single SSID is preferred for multiple reasons. And yet when the client is sticky... then what? I'm happy to learn the error of my ways, but I have yet to figure out how to work around a sticky client other than using dedicated SSIDs and manually changing to the stronger signal.

This discussion is mixing the attributes of enterprise and consumer grade networks.

Enterprise Wi-Fi typically has load balancing (among APs), band-steering and supports things like 802.11k, v and r. Contrary to this Apple article, most consumer routers do not.

I'm seeing signs of more support for 802.11k, which may help. But devices need to support it too and that is the problem. Manufacturers don't often upgrade old drivers for consumer devices.

In the end, set up what works for you. If you use a single SSID and have a sticky client, try disabling and re-enabling Wi-Fi on the device.

 

[speedlever]

I'll have to play some when the family is away. Thanks for the suggestion Tim.

 

[speedlever]

I recently reset both my AC65U and my N66U (AP) such that all 4 radios are set to use the same SSID. It seems to work relatively well, but there are some idiosyncrasies I've noticed. I enabled roaming assistant to disconnect clients with RSSI lower than -70 dBm. I wonder if I should leave that disabled?

Regardless, my daughter has been complaining to me about having wireless connection issues on her iPhone 6s and iPad.

I'm not sure how to approach this. I think I'll start by disabling Roaming Assistant. If that doesn't improve connectivity, I'll go back to renaming each radio with a unique SSID... which seemed to work pretty well overall, but requires more user intervention than I would like to have for the non-techies in the family.

Similarly, I set up a new AC56U to replace another old WRT54G at a beach condo and plan to put that in place next week. I also set it up with one SSID for both radios and am now wondering if I need to go back to using unique SSIDs for each radio.

 

[sfx2000]

One upside of a common SSID network is getting along with neighbors...

Now that multiple AP's are becoming a bit more commonplace in at least the community here - having MyPlace-1, MyPlace-2, MyPlace-3 might seem a bit excessive, and devices that are not sophisticated, they'll just report the SSID's...

Whether you're single frequency or not... and of course, with multiple SSID's, you have your internal issues with roaming across those SSID's, and configuring all of them...

I've got two AP's - both are AC1900 class (Airport Extreme AC's - they're pretty awesome actually as AP's), but they're all common SSID across both bands - so for that neighbor running Windows - they just see one SSID - MyPlace, not two (or four if you count the 5GHz radios)...

And that, believe it or not, is an upside - it's getting to the point in my neighborhood at least - that when one sees Burdine-1, Burdine-2, Burdine-15G, Burden-25G, Budine-Guest, Burdine-Guest2 - well, you get the picture - and going deep - one see a popular AC1900 Router/AP - one must wonder...

Well, someone is likely going to put some angry eyes on the Burdine's... as channel hogs... esp. if you care about WiFi, which if you're on this forum, you probably do...

Something to think about - being a channel hog is one thing, bragging about it with unique ID's - this is akin to that annoying neighbor that has more cars than parking spots, so they park in front of your house - and it builds up a bit of frustration...

(just remember two things - it's public parking in most locales, and if you decide to take action - slice two tires, as most only have one spare, just saying...)

Now I do run my 2.4G AP's in single frequency mode (both AP's on the same channel), my 5GHz is auto, as the Airport's prefer DFS, and will scan into them after a bit, and most of my 5GHz clients do support DFS (sometimes, one has to go into Advanced Settings on the Adapter in Windows to allow it).

I've been running Common SSID for years - the only issue I've seen to date is Ubuntu 14.04LTS and earlier - where the Network Manager bound the connect not on the SSID, but the BSSID (MAC address) of the AP it joined...

If you do have a "sticky client" - most of the BSSID binding stuff has been solved - but one can still run into some level of "Stickiness" if the AP's are too close together, and as such, not triggering the client into AP discovery...

Simple stuff actually... be a good neighbor...

 

[speedlever]

Good point about all those AP names. I am still using a single SSID for all radios, but I disabled Roaming Assistant which actually sounds like a great feature. I wish I could make it work the way I think it should.

I also left the beach router as a single SSID.. in fact, I'm playing with it now. I like to use Wifi Analyzer on my Android and I simply rename the different radios/routers/APs in that app to differentiate them all. But it's still hard to know what radio/AP the clients choose.

 

[thiggins]

SFX: I don't agree with your reasoning about multiple SSIDs being a bad neighbor. Of all the things someone can do to cause Wi-Fi problems, running multiple SSIDs is not one of them.

You are fortunate single SSID works for you. Not everyone is so lucky.

 

[sfx2000]

He was running three AP's, and 1/6/11, and there was no where for the neighbors to go - my neighbor knows my background, and he reached out to me for help...

Common SSID doesn't work for everyone, but I do encourage folks to give it a try...

(BTW - spent a couple of hours with the neighbor, tuned up his network, and he's on good terms with the Burdines - so he approached them, not complaining, but actually discussing how I was able to tune David's network, and would the Burdines like a network tuneup as well - spent an hour over at their house, 1500 sq ft and he had three AP's (RT-AC68U's, btw) - we took one down, moved another, and put his 2.4GHz on a single channel, set up his guest network (he has lots of family coming over, and a real need for that) - it all ended up good...

 

[thiggins]

Can you share details of how you tuned the network? Even with one SSID, three APs normally would be set to 1, 6 and 11, no?

 

[sfx2000]

Can you share details of how you tuned the network? Even with one SSID, three APs normally would be set to 1, 6 and 11, no?

Sure...

First - sit down with the client, discuss their needs, where they typically use wireless - are they fixed, nomadic, or do they need mobility (think SIP client on a phone for example)

Second - take inventory of the equipment and purpose - and the network capabilities of the clients - are they single/dual band, 802.11 legacy, 11n/11ac?

Third - site survey - I like using Kismet here with a dual-band card to get a feel for the network - not just at the primary usage locations - this being a home, primary was the family room and adjacent kitchen, and the bedrooms, along with rear patio.

(Kismet is very useful as not only does it give neighboring AP's, but also activity factors in each channel and on each BSS, including attached clients within those BSS - and some router/AP's also include in their Beacon Frames the QBSS load, which can be viewed in wireshark traces

Fourth - in the clients case, most of their gear was dual-band, so the emphasis was on 5GHz, where we relocated the second AP in the family room with temporary ethernet - the primary AP was actually in a bedroom that had been repurposed as a home office, and this was where the WAN connectivity was at - so by default, because of proximity of the home office, we had good 5GHz coverage for the other two bedrooms.

Now that 5GHz was pretty much sorted on two AP's - went highband (ch 149) for the bedroom home office, and UNII-1 for the family room (ch 44 to be exact) - next was looking at 2.4GHz

Strong neighbors on Ch6 and Ch11, along with one neighbor on CH8, decided to put both AP's on CH1 - they don't depend on 2.4GHz, but it's useful as a backstop, and we get pretty good coverage out back on the patio with 2.4...

Common SSID's across all AP's and Radios - Guest network was enabled on 2.4GHz with a WPA2 passphrase (no captive portal, etc)... wireless surveillance cams went on the Guest network SSID.

Client still had an older DOCSIS2.0 Cable Modem, so we went over to the local BestBuy and picked up a new SB6141 to replace the older modem.

With the temp ethernet still in place - called a good friend that does low voltage (telecom/cable/ethernet) work, he came over - pulled two drops over to the family room - and he did check the coax for cable, and cleaned that up - one bad coax, and some extra coax drops were installed in the bedrooms (master bedroom had a bad coax, and the other bedroom had no cable drop - took him a couple of hours, and with time/materials, was about $200 (USD).

To recap - use cases and primary locations where used, inventory, site survey, and fix connectivity from there.

Out of pocket for Burdine was around 300 total - I did the work for free, but now that I've got two families in the neighborhood that are "happy customers", this will be opportunities for some extra cash in the future...

 

[sfx2000]

With a home network - it's pretty much just using common sense...

And in the Burdine case, it was undoing the damage of their previous consultant that just used "more" - and made things "more" complicated - wireless repeating and bridge, wide channels, and at the end of the day, not very good performance - there are times where there can be "too much wifi"...

(The Burdine's would actually be a likely good customer for the Eero's, but since he already had three AC1900 class router/AP's, made much more sense to reuse them rather than rip/replace)

Followed up a couple of days later, and they were pretty happy - while this was a free job - they did incur a bit of out of pocket cost with the wiring, and the new modem, they now have a ready replacement spare router/AP, and much better service - and happy neighbors to boot

And he stopped by last Saturday with an ice-cold case of Stone IPA (Stone is a popular microBrew out here in San Diego).

 

[sfx2000]

Out of pocket for Burdine was around 300 total - I did the work for free, but now that I've got two families in the neighborhood that are "happy customers", this will be opportunities for some extra cash in the future...

And for what it's worth - when I bill out for paid services - onsite, it $200/hour, and this was a 5 hour job...

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for describing the process. In the end, the main thing you did for neighbor friendliness was minimizing channel use, in 2.4 GHz in particular.

 

[sfx2000]

Thanks for describing the process. In the end, the main thing you did for neighbor friendliness was minimizing channel use, in 2.4 GHz in particular.

Pretty much - one thing about Kismet - it does find the "hidden" SSID's, which many of the active scanners don't, and because it's a passive listener, it can find the clients that are associated with any given basic service set.

The downside is that it's slower at discovery than an active scanner...