Buying Advise

[Internetuser957]

100 & 250 respectively sound quite reasonable. If you're having intermittent problems with all three (wired, 2.4 & 5) over three different routers it is likely it's an ISP problem. If you're having more trouble with wireless than wired then it might be two problems; ISP and, secondarily, wireless (or it could be you simply use wireless more thus that's where you notice it more).

It actually sounds like your ISP is giving it an honest effort. Good luck with that.

Sometimes users will plug a PC directly into the ISP's modem (eliminating the router all together). If that shows failures it's a strong indicator towards an ISP problem.

Does it tend to happen at certain times? Like does it work perfect at 3AM but fail during "peak" hours? It might suggest an over subscription problem?

Sometimes I'll use a product called "Ping Plotter" on my PC. It's a continuous barrage of "pings" and "tracerts" shown as a graphical summary. I've gotten lucky and been able to not only demonstrate it was an ISP problem but exactly which of their routers was overloaded.

Continuing with @coxhaus suggestion:

It's a valid point! You could also;

• Check it out with a WiFi analyzer.
• Or set up separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5 GHz then put as much as you can on 5 GHz.

But, as per you, it does sound like an ISP problem with a possible secondary problem on wireless likely on the 2.4 GHz band?

At this point it's almost certainly the fault of the ISP though for a long time (Around 1 Year) they said their was no issue on their end but it seems I Finally am speaking to the right people (Back-end Engineers) and as of this week they found an issue and are working on resolving it.
I did see more issues on WIFI but that was mainly/exclusively on the Netgear R7800 (Maybe also on the other Routers but not nearly as bad as the Netgear also I'm so Hyper-aware of the issue so any "Blip" I notice even if nothing major).

They are trying but it seems that intermittent connection issue are very hard to fix/nail down what the issue is and the people I was speaking to (the techs,Field Services and even the head of field services in my area) just ran their tests and said they don't see an issue and even when it got passed to the engineers it still took a while (1+ Month) to see an "real issue" (I'm thinking they just were not running the correct tests and/or not diagnosing the issue properly).

I Did try that for a bit a couple months ago but since I did see the issue and connecting Directly to the Modem Limits me to 1 PC (And No WIFI) I did not leave it that way for any period of length.

That's what they keep asking but It does not- I have seen the issue at all times of Day and Night. Also not sure if this means much but I've brought it up to the Engineers and they said it's not a congestion issue and that the Utilization on my Node is not particularly high.

I have heard about Pingplotter and meant to try it out but got caught up with a few thing and did not get a chance but I'll hopefully do it today.

I Agree that's it Valid point and a good suggestion but I'm don't thing it will really solve my issue if there's something wrong on my ISP end (I guess it can still help with speeds but not with my core issue).

Correct, couldn't have said it better myself

 

[coxhaus]

So what is the problem you see when you are connected directly to the modem with a PC? Is the modem running as a wireless router?

 

[Internetuser957]

Only Ran it Directly connected to the modem for a (Very) Short Period of time but I saw the Same issue as when I'm on WIFI- intermittent connection/Packet Loss.

No It's Just a Modem (but they also provided a WIFI Router even though I'm currently not using is as I also had issues while using it and prefer my own Router)

 

[coxhaus]

Are you PPPOE or DHCP? If PPPOE you might check your MTU size.

 

[Internetuser957]

Are you PPPOE or DHCP? If PPPOE you might check your MTU size.

Not Really sure what they are but I think DCHP.

 

[Klueless]

Been kinda wondering what the exciting conclusion was?

I Did try that for a bit a couple months ago but since I did see the issue and connecting Directly to the Modem Limits me to 1 PC (And No WIFI) I did not leave it that way for any period of length.

True. It's only meant for testing. Since it eliminates virtually all of your equipment it strongly suggests the ISP.

I have seen the issue at all times of Day and Night. Also not sure if this means much but I've brought it up to the Engineers and they said it's not a congestion issue and that the Utilization on my Node is not particularly high.

So low utilization on your side suggests you're not contributing much to whatever the problem is (or was?) Did Ping Plotter give you any clues?

Anyway, I assume the problem has been fixed but, on the off-chance it hasn't, here's a looong shot. Had a friend with a "somewhat" similar problem. Anyway "namebench" was complaining some about the ISP's DNS server and it complained a lot when things got really crappy. Tried another DNS service and things started working.

Didn't really make sense to me as "name resolution" happens, is cached, and tends to "stick" but there it was. It did explain why the ISP couldn't find it because that's so not what they were looking for. Did not explain why the rest of the neighborhood wasn't complaining (or ... maybe they were? : -)

 

[Internetuser957]

Been kinda wondering what the exciting conclusion was?

Still An Ongoing issue

True. It's only meant for testing. Since it eliminates virtually all of your equipment it strongly suggests the ISP.

Right, Which Is I did not want to do it and when I did only for a very short time (Even though the techs kept wanting me to run it for a few days)

So low utilization on your side suggests you're not contributing much to whatever the problem is (or was?) Did Ping Plotter give you any clues?

I Only got to Install Pingplotter A couple of days ago and Still figuring out how to use it and what my results mean. I guess I could google it but do you have any tips for using it?

Anyway, I assume the problem has been fixed but, on the off-chance it hasn't, here's a looong shot. Had a friend with a "somewhat" similar problem. Anyway "namebench" was complaining some about the ISP's DNS server and it complained a lot when things got really crappy. Tried another DNS service and things started working.

Didn't really make sense to me as "name resolution" happens, is cached, and tends to "stick" but there it was. It did explain why the ISP couldn't find it because that's so not what they were looking for. Did not explain why the rest of the neighborhood wasn't complaining (or ... maybe they were? : -)

Interesting Because I Did change the DNS Server on my router settings from "Get automatically from ISP" to 1.1.1.1-Cloudflare because I heard it was a good one for Speed/Privacy but I don't see how that could be an issue because I also had the issue with the ISP Router which I did not change the DNS Settings.

Also The Engineer says that they are seeing an issue on their end for Multiple APT'S (Seems that All/Any APT or at least the 4-5 they checked that where not on the ground floor has issues) so they ran a new line (On Friday) from the Ground floor TAP going to the Other floors but I'm still having the issue and they also still see it on their end (Although not for all the APT are having issues but still 3-4 Are) so they want to run a "Temp Line/Drop" from the TAP on my floor to my APT (Not in the Ceiling rather Along the Wall/Molding)

 

[Klueless]

I Did change the DNS Server on my router settings from "Get automatically from ISP" to 1.1.1.1-Cloudflare because I heard it was a good one for Speed/Privacy but I don't see how that could be an issue because I also had the issue with the ISP Router which I did not change the DNS Settings.

I agree. Add a couple more "oooo's" to "looong" shot : -)

Engineer says that they are seeing an issue on their end for Multiple APT'S ...

Sounds promising. With multiple users/apartments having problems it kinda puts the onous on the ISP.

I Only got to Install Pingplotter A couple of days ago and Still figuring out how to use it and what my results mean. I guess I could google it but do you have any tips for using it?

As I remember their website has excellent instructions. You can even match your results with some samples and get an explanation. They also have a help forum, you send your results and others will help you interpret them.

"Ping" in itself is an interesting tool. You simply send a "ping" to a device a dozen "hops" down the road and said device replies back. You get a time measurement. If you "ping" to a device on your own network it'll take less than 1 ms. If you "ping" a device a thousand miles away it'll take something like 30 ms.

"Ping" is a very low priority packet. Some devices will ignore them, others will reply if they're not doing anything better.

Ping Plotter "pings" every router between you and your "target". There will typically be about a dozen or so routers, a couple will ignore you entirely but most will reply back in a reasonable fashion. During times of stress you will some to many will start taking far longer to reply and/or even start dropping packets. Sometimes it will be one router and sometimes it will start with one router and carry through.

In your case it will probably show "hop 2". Hop 1 is your personal router and hop 2 would be the first router in the ISP's network. It would suggest something between you and the ISP's first router is flaky; cabling, splitters, splices, whatever. Ping Plotter might simply confirm/corroborate what you and your ISP are thinking.

I use an old version of Ping Plotter. I'll assume it hasn't changed that much. There's a strip chart at the bottom and a hop list at the top.

Let's say you get home from work and your wife says the network was horrible between 2 & 3 today. You scroll through your Ping Plotter recording looking at the lower half. Sure enough, something changes at 2. The line chart goes high, or you start seeing distinct patterns or red bars. You then look at the hop list above that time range for clues.

We had something "similar' down the street. Turned out to be "squirrel chews". Compromised the cable slightly. Some neighbors worked, some didn't. Problems were intermittent. Worse on windy, rainy, etc. days.

If you were having "secondary" problems on your network "hop 1" might start showing as a "contributor".

We have sure come a long way from the original question, "Should I get a Netgear?" I'm looking forward to hearing how this all winds up.

 

[coxhaus]

We have sure come a long way from the original question, "Should I get a Netgear?" I'm looking forward to hearing how this all winds up.

Yea, it does not seem like buying advise but more trouble shooting advise.

 

[Klueless]

Yea, it does not seem like buying advise but more trouble shooting advise.

Yeah, it started out as a purchase but when the new router didn't fix anything it transitioned. Not at all unusual IMHO ...

 

[coxhaus]

Maybe throwing money at a problem rather than fixing it.

 

[Internetuser957]

Sounds promising. With multiple users/apartments having problems it kinda puts the onous on the ISP.

Right though while they admit to seeing "Spikes" they also say not is having the issue which makes it (much) harder to pinpoint.

As I remember their website has excellent instructions. You can even match your results with some samples and get an explanation. They also have a help forum, you send your results and others will help you interpret them.

Yeah, I took a Look at the website and it seems to contain a lot of info and guides on how to use the program as what results mean.

"Ping" in itself is an interesting tool. You simply send a "ping" to a device a dozen "hops" down the road and said device replies back. You get a time measurement. If you "ping" to a device on your own network it'll take less than 1 ms. If you "ping" a device a thousand miles away it'll take something like 30 ms.

"Ping" is a very low priority packet. Some devices will ignore them, others will reply if they're not doing anything better.

Ping Plotter "pings" every router between you and your "target". There will typically be about a dozen or so routers, a couple will ignore you entirely but most will reply back in a reasonable fashion. During times of stress you will some to many will start taking far longer to reply and/or even start dropping packets. Sometimes it will be one router and sometimes it will start with one router and carry through.

Right, Depending on what I ping (My routers IP vs for Example google or Cloudflare) I would get a much better response (think Single Digits) from my "Local Ping" but some times I see 4000+ Response.

In your case it will probably show "hop 2". Hop 1 is your personal router and hop 2 would be the first router in the ISP's network. It would suggest something between you and the ISP's first router is flaky; cabling, splitters, splices, whatever. Ping Plotter might simply confirm/corroborate what you and your ISP are thinking.

Right, I have to still check into Pingplotter further (I know it's taking me awhile -Now even my free trial Expired).
I think I did some issues even (though not necessarily exclusively) On the First Hop-let me see if I Can replace the Cables even though I think I replaced them a few months ago.

Let's say you get home from work and your wife says the network was horrible between 2 & 3 today. You scroll through your Ping Plotter recording looking at the lower half. Sure enough, something changes at 2. The line chart goes high, or you start seeing distinct patterns or red bars. You then look at the hop list above that time range for clues.

Right, I just really need to sit down one night and really look into it (been kinda Lazy especially as my ISP's Engineer was Already looking into it...) but what we did see is that it seems to happen (At least as far as the engineer can see) every 2-3 days between 6:00pm-8:00Pm

We had something "similar' down the street. Turned out to be "squirrel chews". Compromised the cable slightly. Some neighbors worked, some didn't. Problems were intermittent. Worse on windy, rainy, etc. days.

That's what I'm kinda Hoping is the issue (Some Piece of of Cabling/Equipment outside my Building)
But my ISP Says that if that was the case my whole building would be seeing the issue as service all comes from the same Node and is brought into the building on the same Cable-Is that Actually the case-Is it possible that there is an issue in my Buildings Wiring And/or tap or even the Node just my (and the Other Apt's that have the issue) are being routed through the place that has the issue and the other Apt's are being routed through "non issue" areas?

If you were having "secondary" problems on your network "hop 1" might start showing as a "contributor".

Not Sure I Understand what you mean "having "secondary" problems?" do you mean that I can be having a unrelated issue (Like Channel interference, Bad Cables going from my Modem to my Router Etc) ?
and if that where the case "Hop 1" would also show up as an Issue.

We have sure come a long way from the original question, "Should I get a Netgear?" I'm looking forward to hearing how this all winds up.

We Sure have though my other thread that was Specific to troubleshooting I did not get as much of a response there (Though to be fair that was Specific to my Netgear Router). Thanks, I'll keep you updated.

 

[Internetuser957]

Yeah, it started out as a purchase but when the new router didn't fix anything it transitioned. Not at all unusual IMHO ...

Yeah I Agree , I don't think it's that unusual (but of Course I'm Biased

 

[Internetuser957]

Maybe throwing money at a problem rather than fixing it.

Not Sure What this is referring too?

 

[Klueless]

Not Sure I Understand what you mean "having "secondary" problems?" do you mean that I can be having a unrelated issue (Like Channel interference, Bad Cables going from my Modem to my Router Etc) ?
and if that where the case "Hop 1" would also show up as an Issue.

Yes, something like that. Sometimes, when you're really having trouble nailing a problem, it's because you're having more than one problem which distracts you from the core problem. Random thoughts;

• If you can, use your wired connection for problem confirmation.
  • You're having a problem, run to your wired connection and see if there's a problem there.
• You have a 68U. Check the real time traffic monitor to see if the network is fairly quiescent / verify it's not a traffic problem.
• Maybe run an Internet speed test to see if your perception of a problem corresponds with poor speed test results?
• The problem is intermittent but just often enough to make you a tad grumpy. But not often/long enough to make it easy to find.
• Keep a log. Are your outages even congruent with what the ISP is tracking?
• "google" your modem make/model. Make sure it's not on a recall / class action list. (Mine is but it hasn't been a big enough problem to bother with ... yet.)
• Yeah, there is a learning curve with ping plotter but it did pay off for me. Maybe you'll get lucky too.

Good Luck!

 

[Internetuser957]

• If you can, use your wired connection for problem confirmation.
  • You're having a problem, run to your wired connection and see if there's a problem there

• Right, I Tried that for 2 Days this week (Even though it's makes usage very annoying as most Devices are on WIFI and I still saw issue and Packet loss in "Pingplotter"

• You have a 68U. Check the real time traffic monitor to see if the network is fairly quiescent / verify it's not a traffic problem.

I Did not Check the Traffic Analyzer but I did check the Main Page and it where it generally says connected to the internet and my IP/DCHP Address it has a "X" and says that "Your ISP DCHP may not be functioning Properly"

• Maybe run an Internet speed test to see if your perception of a problem corresponds with poor speed test results?

I Did and Most times I can't even load the page and when it does it does Finally load the Speeds are Fine.

• The problem is intermittent but just often enough to make you a tad grumpy. But not often/long enough to make it easy to find.

Right, That's the really Annoying part and the Engineer also says so -He want's to try and catch it when it's not working but he knows that's kinda Impossible as it only last for a very short period of time.

• Keep a log. Are your outages even congruent with what the ISP is tracking?

Kinda, They Are but I'm seeing more errors (T3, RCS Partial Serivce, Lost MDD Timeout) as well as seeing Packet loss on "Pingplotter" that the engineer does not see.

• "google" your modem make/model. Make sure it's not on a recall / class action list. (Mine is but it hasn't been a big enough problem to bother with ... yet.)

It's the Arris TM1602A which has the "Puma 6" Chip/Issue. But at least from what I read the Issues with the "Puma 6" chip is not really my issue (The issue with it is Latency while mine is Packet loss though they might be related)

• Yeah, there is a learning curve with ping plotter but it did pay off for me. Maybe you'll get lucky too.

  I Hope it will for me as well but what I really hoping for is for the Engineers to find the issue from they're side and resolve it (I know that did not until know but I can still hope can't I?)

Good Luck!

Thanks!

 

[coxhaus]

So does this problem correspond to when your ISP renews your WAN IP address?

 

[Internetuser957]

So does this problem correspond to when your ISP renews your WAN IP address?

Not Sure I Understand.
I get that they renew my IP every so often but how do I know if that corresponds to the timing of my issue?
Via my Modem Logs?

 

[coxhaus]

Check your logs.

 

[Internetuser957]

Check your logs.

Modem? Router? "Pingplotter?