Color neutral computing terminology

[elorimer]

I don't mean for this to start a discussion in this thread, and if it develops into one then maybe a separate thread is in order maybe in a separate forum.

It is time to move our idiomatic terminology from blacklist and whitelist to blocklist and allowedlist, or some such. @Adamm, @thelonelycoder and @Martineau would be our leaders here.

This would follow along with the deprecated use of master/slave and the similar moves within other codespaces, like Android and FreeBDS.

 

[thelonelycoder]

I don't mean for this to start a discussion in this thread, and if it develops into one then maybe a separate thread is in order maybe in a separate forum.

It is time to move our idiomatic terminology from blacklist and whitelist to blocklist and allowedlist, or some such. @Adamm, @thelonelycoder and @Martineau would be our leaders here.

This would follow along with the deprecated use of master/slave and the similar moves within other codespaces, like Android and FreeBDS.

Would you also ask this in the Pi-hole forum, to not use blackhole related names (funny but ultimately just jokes)?
What’s wrong with blocking file, whitelist and blacklist?

 

[adampk17]

Would you also ask this in the Pi-hole forum, to not use blackhole related names (funny but ultimately just jokes)?
What’s wrong with blocking file, whitelist and blacklist?

Elorimer does have point.

 

[dave14305]

Would you also ask this in the Pi-hole forum, to not use blackhole related names (funny but ultimately just jokes)?
What’s wrong with blocking file, whitelist and blacklist?

Someone already did.
https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole/pull/3481

 

[thelonelycoder]

Someone already did.
https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole/pull/3481

Now I understand why the renaming request was made. Sorry for being insensitive and not taking the hint.
These names for the lists are established names, with, to my small corner of the software development understanding, have a non-political and non-racial meaning.
The collective peoples mind changes at a glacial pace, as we all know very well.

Renaming names in Diversion is not just a matter of 'find and replace', and it would impact third party scripts, mainly Skynet and uiDivStats.
While Diversion tries to be as diverse as possible, this proposed change will take a while to debate and process.
And here I'm being sarcastic: It could take more than a livetime to change.
I'm in for the challange, but heed my words.
Suggestions for new names are welcome.

 

[RMerlin]

These names for the lists are established names, with, to my small corner of the software development understanding, have a non-political and non-racial meaning.

The term "black listing" predates the major period of African slavery of the 18th and 19th century, and does not have an ethnic or racial origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting

Let's not make everything that uses the word "black" about racism...

 

[SomeWhereOverTheRainBow]

Now I understand why the renaming request was made. Sorry for being insensitive and not taking the hint.
These names for the lists are established names, with, to my small corner of the software development understanding, have a non-political and non-racial meaning.
The collective peoples mind changes at a glacial pace, as we all know very well.

Renaming names in Diversion is not just a matter of 'find and replace', and it would impact third party scripts, mainly Skynet and uiDivStats.
While Diversion tries to be as diverse as possible, this proposed change will take a while to debate and process.
And here I'm being sarcastic: It could take more than a livetime to change.
I'm in for the challange, but heed my words.
Suggestions for new names are welcome.

I would rather have something that works than something broken because of subtle naming nuances. Notice I am not insensitive to the subject, I use subtle because it is not a problem until someone feels disenfranchised from it. If you do make this change, please take your time and make sure it is done correctly. I feel there will be more issues if things get broken because of a rushed process, v.s. @thelonelycoder @Adamm and @Jack Yaz making sure their brilliant work continues to help the many users of asuswrt-merlin.

 

[5stringdeath]

Let's not make everything that uses the word "black" about racism...

This discussion didn't just start on this little forum though. The pressure to change these terms is also not new to recent protests either but the conversation has accelerated. So the "let us" is bigger than just us

I'm not suggesting it needs to be an active discussion in this thread either.

 

[adampk17]

The term "black listing" predates the major period of African slavery of the 18th and 19th century, and does not have an ethnic or racial origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting

Let's not make everything that uses the word "black" about racism...

Intended or not I don’t think we can deny the connotation that white = good black = bad in the naming scheme.

It’s hardly an emergency type of situation but I’d support a carefully planned and tested switch to something like allow and deny.

 

[thelonelycoder]

The term "black listing" predates the major period of African slavery of the 18th and 19th century, and does not have an ethnic or racial origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting

Let's not make everything that uses the word "black" about racism...

Exactly, and I quote myself:

And here I'm being sarcastic: It could take more than a livetime to change.

 

[SomeWhereOverTheRainBow]

Intended or not I don’t think we can deny the connotation that white = good black = bad in the naming scheme.

It’s hardly an emergency type of situation but I’d support a carefully planned and tested switch to something like allow and deny.

Exactly, and I quote myself:

I get where you are coming from. With your sarcasm, you are implying even if you change your code, you can't change peoples mindset. Which I respect that observation. No amount of changing names or correcting code is going to fix personal bias.

 

[maghuro]

This is getting nonsense IMHO.
Morgan Freeman once said: "do you want to know how to stop racism? Please stop talking of it".

For God's sake.

I emphasize it: this is getting nonsense!!!!

In this forum, does anyone know each other skin tones? Do you know if @RMerlin is black or @thelonelycoder is white? Do you know my skin tone? Exactly, no... Because it doesn't matter. We're people, end of sentence. What matters is that we're a big community working as one. And "nothing else matters".

Oh... Did I just say that... This is getting nonsense?

 

[adampk17]

Oh... Did I just say that... This is getting nonsense?

Except it’s not. Not taking about it enough is part of the reason it’s a problem..... still.

 

[heslo]

This is getting nonsense IMHO.
Morgan Freeman once said: "do you want to know how to stop racism? Please stop talking of it".

For God's sake.

I emphasize it: this is getting nonsense!!!!

In this forum, does anyone know each other skin tones? Do you know if @RMerlin is black or @thelonelycoder is white? Do you know my skin tone? Exactly, no... Because it doesn't matter. We're people, end of sentence. What matters is that we're a big community working as one. And "nothing else matters".

Oh... Did I just say that... This is getting nonsense?

I totally agree... all this has us chasing shadows of monsters that aren't even there. Does racism exist? Yes, it probably always will. As does classism, sexism, etc. Doesn't mean we can't strive to be better however.

That being said, we don't need to change every single name, label or word that doesn't have any correlation or link to a race definition of black or white.

Just my 2 cents

 

[thelonelycoder]

Except it’s not. Not taking about it enough is part of the reason it’s a problem..... still.

We can safely say that this board is about devices, software, knowledge and discussion around these topics. For political matters see relevant places to voice your opinion. Here, we just like to talk tech, mostly.
Change my mind or view, but really the black/white discussion on this board is moot for it is the wrong place to do so.

With that said, I believe this discussion is over. Things remain as they are: Words or names in a software used solely to clearly and unambiguously express, name and convey the meaning and purpose of itself.

 

[thelonelycoder]

Intended or not I don’t think we can deny the connotation that white = good black = bad in the naming scheme.

It’s hardly an emergency type of situation but I’d support a carefully planned and tested switch to something like allow and deny.

If you associate these terms with a certain view, then YOU have a problem. I don't.

 

[elorimer]

Ok. My point was less about racist overtones so much as it was the idiomatically English phrasing that is in the process of being deprecated in software in favor of non-metaphorical terms. Blocklist and allowlist are not idiomatic.

 

[thelonelycoder]

Ok. My point was less about racist overtones so much as it was the idiomatically English phrasing that is in the process of being deprecated in software in favor of non-metaphorical terms. Blocklist and allowlist are not idiomatic.

Point taken, this could take years of planning, coordinating and executing.
In other words: Unlikely to happen.

 

[Martineau]

I don't mean for this to start a discussion in this thread, and if it develops into one then maybe a separate thread is in order maybe in a separate forum.

It is time to move our idiomatic terminology from blacklist and whitelist to blocklist and allowedlist, or some such. @Adamm, @thelonelycoder and @Martineau would be our leaders here.

This would follow along with the deprecated use of master/slave and the similar moves within other codespaces, like Android and FreeBDS.

'unbound_manager' - Done

 

[thelonelycoder]

'unbound_manager' - Done

That was a trivial 'find and replace' job, well done.
I wish it was that simple in Diversion. While I easily could change the names in the UI, the underlying problem still persists in the files themselves.
How could one use software that is supposedly not politically correct? I rather stay true to myself and not change anything at all than to pretend things are fixed with a change on the surface.