New wifi or are my expectations too high?

[Spooky]

Last year I went to a Veloop tri-pack mesh system, I believe it is the AC6600 but it has been disappointing for a few reasosn:

• Speed tests just don't seem to be there...from my iMac 10 feet away from the Veloop plugged into the cable modem I get usually 60-70 mb on a 100 mb internet connection. Over ethernet, it'll usually be over 100 whenever I do A/B tests with it. iPhones and iPad speeds are usually in the 30s or 40s.
• When I've used shadow tech's speed tests to their servers it often shows a higher jitter than I think I should have (spikes into the 40s, though just now it was the best I've seen, solid under 10)
• One of the three nodes, not always the same one, seems to become unresponsive every other week.
• When three of us were playing a fair intensive MMO type game it seemed to cause network issues (Ark: Survival evolved on iPads)
• Range has been an issue in the past, both with an outside patio and even just the kitchen which is on the opposite side of the house from where the cable modem is

What I want is simple, reliable, fast internet speeds for gaming on iPads and virtual to the shadow tech via the Mac and/or an Oculus Quest VR unit.

My particular environment:

• 2,600 square feet ranch house, so all on one floor. No basement or crawl space. Brick exterior. The side of the house with the cable modem in it has most of the walls, but then it opens up into a great room and kitchen on the far side.
• 100 mb cable internet at one end of the hose, unfortunately (vs in the middle).
• No ability to run cat 5 or other cable due to various reasons
• 6 wifi security cameras
• 30 or so Hue smart light bulbs
• a dozen wifi speakers
• a dozen or so other "smart" home devices like power switches and outlets
• 3 users of iPads, iphones, and 2 computers
• Normal netflix usage, but also the above-mentioned gaming
• I have an ethernet over powerline going to the middle of the house with an 8 port hub in it to centrally position a security system that uses RF to reach all of its various nodes. I have the Hue bridge plugged in there too.

Questions:

1. Are my results above expected of any system, or can I get better results (speed, reliability)
2. When there does seem to be an issue, anything in the Apple ecosystem (iOS or mac) to help troubleshoot/find out if there is one of the network devices misbehaving?
3. Would putting a hub/switch between my cable modem and Linksys Veloop, but add in a dedicated router for gaming (to the mac and iPads) help the gaming situation? I'd rather just have one system but if it'd make a big difference I could do that.
4. Would it be worthwhile to get the security cameras on their own WiFi?

 

[thiggins]

70- 80 Mbps on Wi-Fi from a 100 Mbps connection isn't bad, really, given Wi-Fi overhead.

Are the security cams constantly active or only when motion is detected?

Low jitter and lag are not Wi-Fi's strengths. But it could be made worse by a mesh network. Try an experiment of shutting off the two other Velop nodes and just have the root node (connected to your modem) active. Then see if that improves gaming.

 

[Trip]

At those speeds, perhaps your Apple devices are connected via 2.4Ghz? For higher speeds, 5Ghz would probably be required. If they're already on 5, then you've definitely got interference/range issues, either with Velop itself and/or with your environment. You might be able to remedy with a fourth Velop unit, but considering what you're already noticing, a replacement product may be the only way to truly fix your issues.

You may be able to add a bit of speed to by switching to a pre-draft AX mesh system like Amplifi Alien, Orbi AX or Velop AX, but there's a likelihood you'll still experience QoS issues when multiple users load the network. If you're OK with a bit lower theoretical backhaul speed, I would switch to Eero Pro tri-band. Eero is the only consumer mesh code base that uses modern SQM QoS between nodes (fq_codel) and out to the internet (CAKE), while also dynamically adjusting which radios it uses for fronthaul and backhaul based on real-time traffic flow analysis. All of that boils down to a way smoother endpoint experience, even if overall backhaul speeds may be lower in some instances (due to the lack of 4x4 5Ghz radios).

If I had to pick between higher speeds but still having cut-outs and buffering versus slightly lower speeds but a smooth, consistent endpoint experience, I'd go with the latter every time, especially if you'll be trying to game over mesh (which I would never recommend, but if you cant wire, then so be it). I'd start with a 3-pack, then possibly add a 4th if needed for range.

All that said, to my knowledge no consumer mesh product offers real network segmentation (VLANs), nor do they allow for mixed channel usage per AP/node to offer maximum airtime efficiency and simultaneous bandwidth. For those benefits, you'd need to use a wire-first, controller-based AP product. I know you said there's no way to install ethernet, but if you have TV coaxial throughout the house, you could use GoCoax MoCa 2.5 adapters to create a wired backbone that way, which would make a wire-first product much more feasible (Ubiquiti UniFi, TP-Link Omada, etc.).

 

[Spooky]

Thank you very much for the thoughts.

thiggins: the cameras on the outside are on all the time, but the internal cameras do stop recording automatically when we are home...if they haven't dropped like they do every now and then. I'll give it a shot with one node only as a test, though I'll lose the range of the mesh of course (but as a test to see it is worth trying).

Trip: I also agree I'd chose stable wifi that is still fast enough over one that is even faster but has hiccups. The recent Ars Technica article on WiFi placement I think alluded to it is more about lag/jitter than speeds really, but I don't recall them saying how to help with that other than the holistically by following all their other points. When I tried to set the prioritization on the Veloops to our iPads I do believe they were connecting over the 5 ghz band at that time, though the prioritization didn't seem to really do much for them. The Ars article also mentioned ethernet over powerlines is better these days. I'm wondering if trying to use that with a wire-first product would be better, but I know it may be a crapshoot depending on my home's electrical. My older-gen version running to the hue lights and security hubs seems to be fine though, but neither of those requires the low latency gaming would. As far as using GoCoax, for whatever reason, there is only one jack in the entire house, at the end where the cable modem is currently. I don't know if powerline is as good or an option, but if it is it may be a thought.

I'll also read up on the Eero you suggested. Back when I got the Veloop the Eeros were out but I think even pricier and seemed to have marketing behind them (which isn't necessarily bad), but maybe the reverse was actually true with the Veloop.

 

[thiggins]

thiggins: the cameras on the outside are on all the time, but the internal cameras do stop recording automatically when we are home...if they haven't dropped like they do every now and then. I'll give it a shot with one node only as a test, though I'll lose the range of the mesh of course (but as a test to see it is worth trying).

Glad you read the Ars article. One of the points is that devices that have low signals will dominate bandwidth use. So if the outside cameras that continuously using Wi-Fi have low signal levels, they will leave little bandwidth for other devices on the same radio.

 

[Trip]

Powerline tends to be very hit-of-miss in real-world application. It may work; it may not. It may start out working, then degrade. You'll only really know for your use-case by trying one or two products and seeing what happens. That said, I would stay away from powerline in favor of a better mesh setup if you can arrange for one; despite all the downsides, a mesh still has a higher level of operational certainty at the baseline link layer.

You should be able to solve your range issues by simply adding in a fourth mesh unit and relocating the other three to form a roughly equidistant square or rhombus. This will eliminate slower-connected cameras from having to hog so much fronthaul. Perhaps try a fourth Velop unit. If that fixes coverage but you still continue to get buffering/stuttering issues, rip and replace with four Eero Pro tri-band units.

 

[Spooky]

Would leaving the Velops in place for the wifi cameras (though the furthest ones would still drop occasionally) and anything else that doesn't have to be on the main network to work, but then add in another mesh network (like the Eero's) make sense, or would all the colliding radio waves cause different issues while costing a lot of money? I'm guessing the nodes couldn't be placed in the same spaces.

I could see if I can find a matching Velop node at a local store with a good return policy to test out if adding a 4th works. I hate returning stuff / causing open box situations though if it doesn't have a good chance of working.

 

[thiggins]

You should be able to solve your range issues by simply adding in a fourth mesh unit and relocating the other three to form a roughly equidistant square or rhombus.

@Trip I don't recommend adding another mesh unit until it is determined what the problem is. More mesh nodes are not necessarily better, especially since most mesh systems aren't true mesh. You could end up with all the units linking in a daisy chain instead of a mesh. The devices attached to the last mesh node in the chain would get a nice strong signal, but lousy bandwidth.

@Spooky If you were to add another network to put your cameras and other IoT stuff on, it would have to use a different channel than the main network. Otherwise both networks would be competing for the same bandwidth.

And when I say different channel, I mean 1,6,11 in 2.4 GHz. In 5 GHz, it's trickier. To really make sure the networks aren't competing for bandwidth, you need to be either in the low (36-48) or high (149-161) band. Since AC uses 80 MHz bandwidth by default, it eats up four channels. When you are selecting a 5 GHz channel, you are selecting the control/management channel. Data uses up all four channels.

The problem then is that "Tri-band" systems like Velop use both the low and high 5 GHz bands, usually the low band for client connect and the high band for backhaul. You also usually can't select the channels used with mesh systems.

Low latency/lag over Wi-Fi is iffy at best. So you could end up spending a lot of $ and be no better off than when you started.

What were you using for Wi-Fi before you bought the Velop?

 

[Trip]

@Trip [...] most mesh systems aren't true mesh. You could end up with all the units linking in a daisy chain instead of a mesh.

I take it you're inferring most aren't true mesh due to lack of multipoint/star topology support and automatic best-path arrangement? That's fair enough, but as much as I have gathered, mostly all the products in question do support those feature. Still, extra wifi hops are extra wifi hops, and we want to minimize those at all costs.

The points about channels are correct as well; no mesh will do as well as a singularly-controlled set of APs, with as few of them wirelessly uplinked as possible (preferably none).

 

[Spooky]

Prior to switching to the Velop I was using Apple's Time Capsule and then an old, blue Linksys I'd used before the Time Capsule (in a different house) that had tomato on it, but I repurposed for a wifi extender to help the other side of the house. Replacing this setup with the Velops did seem better, but then over the last year I've added a lot of those IoT stuff that has probably not helped, lol.

 

[Val D.]

but then over the last year I've added a lot of those IoT stuff that has probably not helped, lol.

This is what I was going to say... too many devices connected to the network. This Velop system is holding pretty good, actually.

 

[Kaleb12]

Velops in general aren’t good for throughput if that’s all you’re looking for. They’re very unreliable and inconsistent. If you’re looking for throughput look into a POE access point system.


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[thiggins]

This is what I was going to say... too many devices connected to the network.

The # of connected devices should not affect system performance if they are idle. It's active devices and what they are doing that eat up airtime.

 

[thiggins]

Velops in general aren’t good for throughput if that’s all you’re looking for. They’re very unreliable and inconsistent. If you’re looking for throughput look into a POE access point system.

That's a pretty general statement. What has been your experience that cause you to make this statement?

 

[Val D.]

The # of connected devices should not affect system performance if they are idle.

I know. It just makes me nervous when I see like 70 on a home network.

If you’re looking for throughput look into a POE access point system.

Easy advice. From $600 to start... probably over $1000 in @Spooky case.