Running network outdoors between buildings

[nostaw]

Hi -

I've followed the site for a while and I've found the router info really useful, so I was hoping I could get some tips on a project...

I have a building on my property ~100' from my house (building already has AC power, etc...). I've wanted to add network connectivity for a while and I've recently begun to think about it more seriously. I intend to put a Wifi hotspot in the building and relocate my NAS out there. The Wifi hotspot is for local connectivity (for the building and the adjacent pool)... The NAS would move there so I can store "offsite" backups (e.g. if my house burns down it is unlikely the building the NAS with the backups is in will).

I've priced out the cost of direct-bury Cat6, fiber, and a point-to-point wireless.... Fiber is about 4x-5x the cost of Cat6 (when you factor in the price of fiber and media converters), but I am kind of thinking it may be better to run fiber to avoid issues with lightning / power surges.

If the lightning thing isn't really a big deal, I'd be just as happy to save the $. Living in southern NH we do get lightning storms a few times a year.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this and what would be the way to go and/or what equipment to use/avoid?

TIA,

JW

 

[thiggins]

If main reason is "offsite" backup, might be cheaper/easier to get one of these
ioSafe N2 NAS Reviewed

 

[nostaw]

For the $ that thing would cost me I'd be the same or less if I ran GigE + fiber.

I want Wifi out there so when I'm in the building working on stuff or when we're by the pool (which is adjacent to the building) I can get online... In the future I may put a TV, or other "stuff" out there which I'd want to connect to the network to stream video, etc... I can do this stuff with 100 mb/s, but I figured I'd want GigE if I stuck the NAS out there.

JW

 

[thiggins]

If you're going to do fiber, read through this thread.

 

[CaptainSTX]

Cat 5 Surge Lightning & Surge Protection

Use something like at this at both ends of your outdoor run to give you surge protection.


http://www.metrolinedirect.com/itw-..._content=pla&gclid=CO7Awp7t0rcCFVIV7AodV3UAcg

 

[coxhaus]

Using fiber is going to be the safest when it comes to lightening. Fiber can lay in an underground tube with water in it and still work fine. You can probably find a couple of old fiber switches on eBay. You will probably want to use multi mode fiber with ST connectors which will be easier to find. You will need someone to terminate and certify the fiber once installed. It is not a do it yourself deal.

If you want do it yourself cable connection then you want to look at copper cat5e or cat6. Lightening is a real problem with copper cable but if you want cheap it will work. You may end up with dead equipment occasionally. If you want to do it real cheap you can use the black water pipe which is about $8.00 a hundred feet. I did that one time and it lasted for about 2 years until someone put a shovel through the pipe and cable. I redid the cable with PVC pipe and had no further problems.

 

[nostaw]

If you're going to do fiber, read through this thread.

Thanks for that link... Definitely the kind of info I was looking for.

CaptainSTX - thanks for that... I'm definitely paranoid about surge protection and if I have to spend $170+ (surge protect both ends) just for surge protection the additional cost of fiber will probably be a better option.

I'm definitely leaning in the direction of fiber.... I checked the website Fibercablesdirect.com... Prices look pretty good, but they appear to be for indoor rated stuff. I was going to go the route of using relatively inexpensive poly 1" tube for a conduit cause I can stretch out the conduit and pull fiber, then install. I may just go with 1" PVC conduit, not really much more $.

Trying to figure out if it would be easier to use a media converter or a switch with integrated fiber...

Thx!

JW

 

[coxhaus]

Trying to figure out if it would be easier to use a media converter or a switch with integrated fiber...

Thx!

JW

I have used both with good results. I would just buy which is a better buy.

 

[westom]

I'm definitely paranoid about surge protection and if I have to spend $170+ (surge protect both ends) just for surge protection the additional cost of fiber will probably be a better option.

All telephones connect to a $multi-million computer using fiber? Of course not. Effective protection has been routine for over 100 years using only copper wire. Most have damage because they, instead, use knowledge from advertising.

Protection is defined by a single point earth ground required of every structure. An exposed telephone line from the CO (telco switching center) to your building is connected at both ends to single point earth ground. Then a surge anywhere on that wire causes damage at neither end. Again, this comes from over 100 years of well defined science. You do same for only dollars.

An industry professional demonstrates the concepts. A building and antenna. Replace that antenna with a 100' distant building to do same. Any wire that enters either structure must connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point ground before entering. Otherwise a direct lightning strike to one building finds earth ground and destroys electronics in the other building:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

Every 'wire' means every wire inside every cable. Some wires (ie cable TV) have best protection by making only a wired connection. Your ethernet cannot connect to earth via a wire. So an ethernet protector must make the same 'less than 10 foot' connection. An example:
http://www.thenerds.net/TRIPP_LITE....html?affid=8&gclid=CK7RloPi17cCFZKk4AodkxgAiA
Not shown is the most important feature in that protector. A heavy gauge ground wire so that every wire inside that ethernet cable can make a low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meter') connection to the earthing electrode.

Again, any wire that exits any structure must first make a low impedance connection to earth. So that surges anywhere on that wire or inside the other building cause no damage to any electronics inside this building. A least expensive solution has always been the most robust solution. When protectors are implemented without that short connection to earth, well how many have had surge damage when using (unearthed) protectors that also cost most money?

Protection is always about discussing a connection to earth. So that a surge need not enter the building.

 

[nostaw]

I am an electrical engineer... When I say I'm paranoid about surge protection that is because I understand the physics of it and I've had appliances wrecked by power surges... I also understand impedance and why it is important w.r.t grounding.

 

[westom]

I am an electrical engineer... When I say I'm paranoid about surge protection that is because I understand the physics of it and I've had appliances wrecked by power surges... I also understand impedance and why it is important w.r.t grounding.

Then you know that if the ground wire from a breaker box 'whole house' protector goes up over the foundation and down to 'single point earth ground', then protection has been seriously compromised. The wire is too long. Has sharp bends going over the foundation. Is too close to other non-grounded wires. Most mean increased impedance. If inside metallic conduit, then the ground wire impedance is major excessive.

Each and every AC electric wire must make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to one particular earth ground - the single point earth ground. You may or may not know how these details increase impedance excessively. But this is information for all; not just you.

And not just any earth ground. Every word has electrical engineering significance: single point earth ground.

 

[nostaw]

I found this reference a few years ago on how to do grounding and surge protection can here:

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Does a nice job summing it up...

 

[westom]

Does a nice job summing it up...

Actually it is vague. It forgets to make some very key points. First, the 'whole house' protector must exist with or without point of connection protectors. Second, that earthing (not a protector) does the protection.

Protection means this question must always have an answer: Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate?

For example, page 42 figure 8 shows what happens when a 'whole house' protector does not exist. And a point of connection appliance is too close to electronics; too far from earth ground. That protector earths an 8000 volts surge through any nearby appliance. Even one appliance not directly connected to it.

The guide does make reference to what is most important. But it does not provide perspective. It is vague. Why is an earthed 'whole house' protector always required? Because that does over 99.5% of the protection. Because a point of connection protector, in rare cases, is even a potential house fire when not protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

And finally, the guide does not define proper earthing - the most important component in any protection system.

What do professionals always recommend and always first inspect when surge damage happens? An app note demonstrates what actually does the protection:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

In Orange County FL, the emergency response equipment suffered surge damage. And so they fixed the reason for that damage. More protectors? Of course not. They needed a solution. A case study: they corrected the earthing of every incoming wire:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

You asked about protection for a separate building. The NIST citation does not even discuss potential problems. Each building must be treated as a separate structure. Each must have its own single point earth ground. Every wire that enters either structure must first connect low impedance to that earth ground either directly or via a 'whole house' protector.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not any earth ground. Single point earth ground. That guide is vague about what is most important. It does not provide proper perspective.

 

[bud--]

Actually it [IEEE surge guide] is vague. It forgets to make some very key points.

Actually it is very good - the best information I have seen on the internet on surge protection. It is published by the IEEE and is aimed at people with technical backgrounds.

Another good source of information is
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges happen!.pdf
published by the NIST and aimed at the general public - not very technical at all.

First, the 'whole house' protector must exist with or without point of connection protectors.

It is not in the IEEE surge guide because westom is wrong.

And point of connection protectors have not been part of the conversation.

Second, that earthing (not a protector) does the protection.

Aimed at plug-in protectors because they are not well earthed.

It is not in the IEEE surge guide because plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. (See the discussion starting page 30.)

Protection means this question must always have an answer: Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate?

Which is also a dig at plug-in protectors.

The author of the NIST surge guide investigated how much energy might be absorbed in a MOV in a plug-in protector. Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and the surge on incoming power wires was up to 10,000A (which is the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring - referenced in the IEEE surge guide.) The maximum energy at the MOV was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less.

There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps most of the incoming surge energy to earth. The second reason is a surge is a very short event and the current components are relative high frequency. So the impedance of the branch circuit wiring is much more important than the resistance. The impedance of the wiring prevents much of the surge energy from getting to the protector.

For example, page 42 figure 8 shows what happens when a 'whole house' protector does not exist. And a point of connection appliance is too close to electronics; too far from earth ground. That protector earths an 8000 volts surge through any nearby appliance. Even one appliance not directly connected to it.

And plug-in protectors again.

Anyone with minimal mental abilities can discover what the IEEE surge guide says in this example:
- A plug-in protector protects the TV connected to it.
- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- The illustration "shows a very common improper use of multiport protectors"
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire from cable entry ground block to the earthing system at the power service that is far too long. In that case the IEEE surge guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector."
- westom's favored power service protector would provide absolutely NO protection.

And it is simply a lie that the plug-in protector in the IEEE example damages the second TV.

Cntrary to westom's misinformation, both the IEEE and NIST say plug-in protectors are effective. But that is not particularly relevant to this thread.

The guide does make reference to what is most important. But it does not provide perspective. It is vague. Why is an earthed 'whole house' protector always required? Because that does over 99.5% of the protection.

Westom's 99+% figure is from the IEEE "Green" book and is for lightning rods. It has nothing to do with surge protection.

And finally, the guide does not define proper earthing - the most important component in any protection system.

Earthing is, of course, included.

You asked about protection for a separate building. The NIST citation does not even discuss potential problems.

What a surprise. The IEEE (not NIST) surge guide doesn't cover everything.

Each building must be treated as a separate structure.

I actually agree with that. The IEEE surge guide does cover "ground potential rise". The two buildings may be at very different earth potentials during a surge 'event' or near lighting strike - probably not news to anyone here. Wiring to the separate building should have all the wires protected at both ends (network can be by device like from CaptainSTX). As many people said fiber eliminates some of the protection problems.