which repeater EnGenius esr9850 or Asus rt-n13u?

[RabidTreeMonkey]

Edited: Advice please for a good wireless N indoor repeater

Edit: as the thread has progressed, our focus has shifted towards finding a powerful wireless N indoor repeater; hopefully of the non-WDS variety. We'd like to keep our budget for the repeater in the $100 or less range. Also, given that the furthest client is about ~70 feet and 4 walls away, we might need to run 2 repeaters staggered along the way and just accept the hit to total throughput. No matter the solution, we're hoping to keep total costs to around ~$200 or less. $250 would be a maximum.



Background: We recently moved to an old 1920s apt complex surrounded by several other nearby apt buildings. Lots of nearby wireless traffic (approximately a dozen other nearby networks). After looking through logs, I've noticed at least one unfriendly out there repeatedly attempting (unsuccessfully) to log on to our network via password guessing. Security is required around here. Prior to this post, I've read up via the forums here at SNB and a few other places along with Tim's great pair of articles on bridging, access points and repeaters. On to the questions.

Our Netgear wndr3700 works great for our home, but we need to extend the range of our wireless g "guest" network since we're going to be sharing our broadband costs with at least two neighbors in apartments 40+ feet away. Our plan is to buy two repeaters to broadcast the wndr3700's signal. All of us have apartments on the second floor, so it's only walls we're transmitting through, not floors. It's possible that another neighbor closer to the wndr3700 might join our shared internet connection crew and thus give us a much-desired closer location for positioning our closest repeater, but currently the most difficult connection/hop we've got to make is one of two choices. Either:

• ~45ft through two walls (one near the wndr3700 and the other closer to the first repeater location). I'd compare this hop to SmallNetBuilder's location D or E in the wireless testing.
• a straight line of ~75 feet through one window and one wall (with the wall being at the far end near where the repeater would be placed).

We're planning on buying two repeaters/access points/range extenders to give us good coverage. We've been looking into the EnGenius esr9850 and Asus rt-n13u as possible solutions but are open to other options as well. The 2.4Ghz wireless g signal is the focal point as none of the neighbors use 5GHz or wireless N equipment. It's only the wireless network that we need to extend, so using access points/LAN ports off whatever equipment we buy is completely optional. We're tempted to go with the Asus rt-n13u since it charted better in SmallNetBuilder's location E and F, but at the same time we're wondering if the EnGenius esr9850 might work reliably enough while providing for an easier setup (non-WDS and Tim's article as a guide).

Since the primary purpose of this wireless network is to provide bandwidth from the shared internet connection, we expect anything in the ~6-10Mbit range to be plenty sufficient. Both downstream households are light/modest users and simply need a reliable connection rather than high bandwidth. Originally, I wanted to run some CAT6 wire down to the other apts, but our building manager said "no" which has led us to this post.

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated

 

[heap1]

You might also want to look at some of the products from Hawking Technology to use as Repeaters. I use both their Range Extender and a Wireless N Router as Repeaters and they have proven very reliable and extremely easy to set-up. Unlike the Asus products, you assign a separate SSID to the Repeater than the one on the main Router, which makes them easier to manage. They also act as a Bridge so you can hardwire devices to their ethernet ports.

 

[heap1]

Just one more thing, if you are looking at EnGenuis products and only need wireless G connectivity, something like the EnGenius ECB3500 would probably be more suitable for your needs. It should have a much greater range than the ESR9850.

 

[RabidTreeMonkey]

Thanks for the advice Heap. I'm seriously considering trying out your recommendation of the ecb3500 (and researching other similar products. Got any recommendations on Hawking or other brands of repeaters/APs?). The focus on the Asus rt-n13u and Engenius esr9850 mostly came from Tim's reviews followed up by some research. Originally I'd been looking to purchase a device focused specifically on range extension. Problem was I kept reading negative reviews with few positive responses and gave up. Now, having read the highly positive reviews on the 600mW Engenius ecb500 and its less powerful N-band sibling the ecb9500, I'm debating giving one of these two a shot instead, and then adding a 3rd repeater/extender if needed. The N-band isn't a requirement now, but for future-proofing, I'd be willing to pay extra. We're trying to keep our total costs closer to $100 or less rather than $150+

No matter which product we buy, you can be sure I'll report on the results here, even if we end up going through a few different items before finding a solution that works.

 

[heap1]

The two Hawking devices I have are the HWRN1 Range Extender and the HWRN1A Router, which has been discontinued and replaced by the HWRN2 Wireless Router. Like the EnGenuis Routers they can be used in a number of different modes including Bridge and Repeater mode. The Range Extender is a very simple device and can only be used as a Repeater. Both products have been extremely reliable, although as far as distance goes I am sure that there are better products out there. Probably none of the Hawking Tech products will beat the ECB3500 as far as range goes, including the the ECB9500.

You might have to do some experimenting with your set-up to get things working well, so it might be a good idea to buy from a store that has a liberal return policy, just in case a device doesn't work out. One of the tricks in setting up a repeater is to set it up in a location where the repeater is getting a strong signal from the Router or else it won't work well.

Hopefully you can make things work by using just one repeater. My understanding is that using two repeaters would degrade the throughput speed to 25% of your original Router when clients are connected to them. However, this might not be so important if people are just accessing the internet and not transferring files between computers.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do!

 

[thiggins]

As noted in the article, you don't place repeaters in weak signal locations because you start with reduced throughput, which the repeater then knocks down by ~ 50%.

Use a non-WDS mode repeater because it will allow you to use a WPA/WPA2 secured connection. Not all WDS gear lets you use WPA / WPA2.

Go with N vs. G because of the higher throughput. 2.4 GHz band range will be about the same G or N. But use 20 MHz bandwidth mode, not 20/40.

 

[RabidTreeMonkey]

Been researching several products from Netgear, Buffalo, TRENDnet and more (especially the Cisco WAP2000 and D-Link DWL-3200AP). Based on price, user feedback, performance, features we've followed Heap's recommendation of an EnGenius ecb 3500 in large part because of it's massive signal strength/dB gain, ability to run WPA/WPA2 and other niceties like the multiple SSIDs and MAC address filtering. The ecb 3500 is only a 2.4GHz model, but considering its sub-$100 price and powerful wireless G broadcast signal, we're probably better off gambling on this than, say, Engenius' ecb 9500 which adds wireless N, but puts out 1/4 (6-7dB less) the transmit power; receive sensitivity is claimed to be about the same between models. So far, owner reviews of the ecb 3500 are highly positive which also makes me optimistic.

Alternatively, we considered buying a pair of the ecb 9500s (despite the throughput reduction for adding two repeaters vs one), but since our biggest obstacle is that difficult jump from our primary router to the first AP/repeater location, we went with the 600mW output of the ecb3500.

As noted in the article, you don't place repeaters in weak signal locations because you start with reduced throughput, which the repeater then knocks down by ~ 50%.

I remember this quite clearly from your article, and this is our toughest problem. The closest point we can place a repeater is either ~45 feet and 2-3 walls away or ~75 feet with one wall on the far end and a window near the broadcasting router. Far from ideal options, but we don't have much choice.

EDIT: I should mention that we're first going to try using the ecb3500 in our apartment to boost the signal downstream to our 3 neighbor's apts. If that doesn't work decently, we'll try placing the repeater in the closest neighbor's apartment. I'm expecting the best results to come from using the repeater in our apartment to provide a stronger signal vs trying to use it in a more remote location (same as Tim's results in Part 2 of his bridging/AP article). Worst case scenario is we use the ecb3500 repeater locally in our apt to provide a stronger signal downstream, and purchase a second repeater to place in a neighbor's apt. If that becomes the case, we'll have reduced throughput to ~1/4 of our max, but hopefully with a decently strong signal. Keeping our fingers crossed.

Use a non-WDS mode repeater because it will allow you to use a WPA/WPA2 secured connection. Not all WDS gear lets you use WPA / WPA2.

I have yet to figure out for certain how to tell if a product supports non-WDS mode, but I suspect the spec sheet's mentioning of both "access point" and "client bridge" in addition to the spec of "WDS AP" and "WDS bridge" is the manufacturer's way of stating "non-WDS"?

The EnGenius esr 9850 mentioned in your article makes no mention of non-WDS mode anywhere on its spec sheet so I'm left to guessing. I'm definitely interested in non-WDS, but it's by no means a dealbreaker. The EnGenius ecb 3500/9500 repeaters/APs both claim to support WPA/WPA2. They also support multiple SSIDs which would be nice (but not required), though I assume that, as per your article, non-WDS mode will eliminate our ability to use extra SSIDs.

Go with N vs. G because of the higher throughput. 2.4 GHz band range will be about the same G or N. But use 20 MHz bandwidth mode, not 20/40.

Thanks for the clarification on this. We were unsure of what to do with 20/40 since our recent tests here in our building show no difference. I would prefer to run wireless N over G, but it doesn't look to be in our budget (~$100 preferred, $200 tops) unless I'm willing to gamble on a less powerful repeater. Given that the furthest client will have 5-6 walls and about 75 feet between us, I'd rather focus on raw signal strength vs total throughput on the WAN. The primary use of the WAN is to share a 10-18Mbit internet connection, not file share. Max throughput isn't as important as WAN reliability.

Hopefully we can pick up our repeater today from Mwave, and testing can begin this weekend. I'll be sure to post results.

 

[thiggins]

Boosting transmit power on only one end will probably not extend your range. It helps the receiver (client or bridge partner) hear the transmitter, but not vice-versa.

If you can improve only one end of a connection, you are better off using a higher gain antenna than boosting transmit power since the antenna amplifies both receive and transmit.

I know you're just trying to provide basic Internet access. But with your setup and using 802.11g vs. 11n, the other end of the bridge will probably have only 1-2 Mbps of throughput.

Manufacturers do not make it easy to sort out WDS vs. non-WDS. You need to look for "repeater" somewhere in the product description and then download the user manual and make sure that the product has the ability to scan for and connect to wireless networks, like a client can. If the product has only the ability to enter MAC addresses, then it is WDS based.

 

[RabidTreeMonkey]

Boosting transmit power on only one end will probably not extend your range. It helps the receiver (client or bridge partner) hear the transmitter, but not vice-versa.

I know you're just trying to provide basic Internet access. But with your setup and using 802.11g vs. 11n, the other end of the bridge will probably have only 1-2 Mbps of throughput.

Manufacturers do not make it easy to sort out WDS vs. non-WDS. You need to look for "repeater" somewhere in the product description and then download the user manual and make sure that the product has the ability to scan for and connect to wireless networks, like a client can. If the product has only the ability to enter MAC addresses, then it is WDS based.

I didn't think we'd be looking at a "real world" of 1-2Mbps on the far end, but now looking back at the 802.11g spec I see you're right! THANK YOU for noticing (ditto on how to spot a non-WDS repeater). We'd already placed our order for the EnGenius ecb 3500 at a nearby e-tailer (Mwave) and had tried to pick it up via will call on Saturday, but hit too much traffic on the drive over and were going back on Monday. Now that you've pointed out how choked our throughput will be, we'll definitely be buying wireless N, even if we have to run 2 repeaters (and further throughput reduction). I guess we'll talk to Mwave and ask them to change our EnGenius ecb3500 order to the ecb9500 unless anyone has a suggestion for a kickass wireless N repeater (or two) that will total ~$200 or less? Preferably with Tim's recommendation of an ethernet port for config and non-WDS to make for a (hopefully) easier setup.

If you can improve only one end of a connection, you are better off using a higher gain antenna than boosting transmit power since the antenna amplifies both receive and transmit.

I noticed the EnGenius ecb3500/9500 have both detachable and upgradeable antennas in their specs, but EnGenius' website only lists an 8dBi wireless b/g outdoor antenna. Hopefully, should we need them, we can find quality antennas to fit the ecb9500 from another source. Then again, given that replacement antennas will add to the TCO, I'd rather just spend more on a better repeater from the start; not that the antennas themselves aren't highly important.