Why can't I get AiMesh to work (roam) correctly?

[Androidian]

So I think I've given up on smart connect. One of the main reasons I wanted to use it, was for a fallback if any of my devices on 5-2 got bumped because of a DFS event. However, after doing some research, it doesn't really seem like 160 megahertz is really any better than 80 megahertz, especially since I don't know if I even have any devices that can benefit from it. And I was having a lot of difficulty getting my devices to connect to either the router or the node that was closest to it. I think that there were several factors at play. I'm not sure if it was a combination of these things or just one of them, but I think it had to do with: smart connect, roaming ssistant, roaming block list, binding devices to the router or the node, and using guest index 1. As soon as I moved my devices to a band on the main network, it seemed to actually listen to the binding better. On guest network 1, they would never bind to the correct location and I did have intranet enabled. So now I'm going to try not using smart connect and not use the guest network. But I'm still not sure about roaming assistant. I have most of my devices bound to either the router or the node, but I have devices which are mobile not bound so that they can actually roam between the router and the node. However, I have not been able to find a setting for roaming assistant which allows devices like phones to appropriately roam. I'm guessing it's because my router and my node are too close together, but I have them on opposite ends of the house and on separate floors. So it's definitely frustrating because I would like to have them roam when necessary to maintain a good connection. Do you have any recommendations on the best settings for roaming assistant? Also, when a device does roam, should there be a noticeable cut out in connectivity? I thought I remember reading that for roaming assistant it shouldn't be a lengthy cutout. However, so far, when I have a device that does roam it seems to drop and then take a little while to reconnect and once it does connect, the device still takes a while to actually realize it's been reconnected. So I don't know if I can even use roaming assistant. It's frustrating because I got what I thought was a good router and mesh system with some extra features to help with the roaming, but it seems like I can't even use them. What's the point of having it if they don't even roam correctly and if they do there's a lengthy cutout in connectivity? Any feedback is still greatly appreciated. I just feel like I'm not sure of the best approach for a reliable connection. I used to have a separate access point, but it got to be a pain to always have to manually switch to it. I tried Google Home but I hated the lack of customization and the fact that it relied on always connecting to the cloud. But at least it seemed like devices could much more reliably connect to either the main router or the point (node). What's a guy got to do to find a good mesh system? Also, once a device roams to a node, how does it know to roam back to the main router once you're closer to it? After my devices roam to the node, they never seem to want to roam back to the main router, and I don't have these devices on the roaming block list and they are not bound to the node (or the router). I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Tech9]

How big is the area you cover with your XT8 set? AiMesh is a marketing name of wireless repeaters or wired access points. Since AiMesh has no power control on the nodes, if you have too many - it makes things worse. Your clients decide where to connect. If they see two strong APs, they'll bounce between them randomly. There will be cut offs when switching APs. Seamless roaming is in AiMesh advertisements only.

 

[Androidian]

Thanks for your reply. Overall area is 2,700 ft². The router and note are separated at a distance of about 30 ft straight line but there are 3 walls and 1 floor in between them. I'm using Ethernet backhaul. I already have my stationary devices bound to either the router or the node. I'm just trying to get my non-stationary devices working. They are not really bouncing, they just take forever to roam and when they do they lose connection for a while. In fact I'd like them to bounce more in the sense that when I get closer to either the router or the node that it bounces back to the stronger signal. But I also don't want it disconnecting all the time. That's a shame that there's no such thing as seamless roaming. I thought I remember reading elsewhere that either smart connect or roaming assistant was seamless, but I guess that's not true. I'll have to try to refigure out what to do and possibly turn some of the radios off on either the router or the node.

 

[Tech9]

Please, don't copy/paste the same reply in different threads.

This is what AiMesh is and no amount of tweaking will make things significantly better. Your clients will select one AP and stick to it as long as the signal is good enough. When it's not good anymore, they will re-connect to another AP. This process may take up to 10 seconds. It depends on the client. Some consumer "mesh" setups are doing it better than others (Orbi, Eero, some Deco). Small business network controller based setups are doing it better as well (UniFi, Omada, Ruckus, Cisco). You have to find the way to use your hardware better, but don't expect instant fix changing settings. AiMesh is more marketing and less "mesh". There is no single perfect setup for everyone. The Wi-Fi environments, clients, equipment price, user skills, expectations - all different. Your personal choice was Asus ZenWiFi XT8. You have 2 options: a) find a way to use it; b) replace it with something else.

My suggestion to you is - reset the setup and use defaults for a period of time. Let the system learn the environment and your clients learn the available APs. Don't change settings often. This is what Asus expects an average user to do. Give it a chance to work the way it was designed to work.

 

[Androidian]

Thanks. Sorry. Just trying to figure out what to do here. I'm pretty sure I'm past my return window with the XT8's. And this is after trying Google Nest Wi-Fi. I'm definitely planning to do a reset, but I'm trying to experiment first to see what works the best. I initially made sure to do a full reset and I used it with defaults for a while, and it just wasn't working well for non-stationary devices. I think I'll end up keeping it but I'll have to try to figure out how to handle non-stationary devices better. I'll probably end up turning some of the radios off. Thanks.

 

[OzarkEdge]

Thanks. Sorry. Just trying to figure out what to do here. I'm pretty sure I'm past my return window with the XT8's. And this is after trying Google Nest Wi-Fi. I'm definitely planning to do a reset, but I'm trying to experiment first to see what works the best. I initially made sure to do a full reset and I used it with defaults for a while, and it just wasn't working well for non-stationary devices. I think I'll end up keeping it but I'll have to try to figure out how to handle non-stationary devices better. I'll probably end up turning some of the radios off. Thanks.

Try spreading the two nodes farther apart instead of turning OFF the radios. If you don't have the wire in place, use wireless. And make sure you don't have radio devices sitting right next to your nodes.

A basic WiFi Analyzer app can help to see signal power as you move around. When the nodes are moved closer together, they essentially become a single point source of WiFi signals... your clients will not have an obvious choice... give them an obvious choice and let them decide. Binding clients to APs and disabling radios should not be required. Don't underestimate radio... walk out your front door and find out how far you can go and still use your mobile client... even then it won't know which node to connect to if they are too close together.

It might help to begin with separate SSIDs and only connect to the band you want. Later, you can try Smart Connect for single SSID elegance after you have your nodes located for your radio space.

If you've been twiddling a bunch of settings, reset the firmware (Restore w/Initialize) and configure minimally from scratch.

Given wired backhauls, dual-band probably would have been sufficient and more flexible. I say probably because I have not used a tri-band router.

OE

 

[Androidian]

Thanks for all that info! I can't get my nodes much further apart and keep a wired backhaul. I know I could do wireless but I really want to avoid that. It's just not as good as wired, and I would like to use the 5-2 radio. I do think I might need to move my node away from a couple devices with Wi-Fi radios. Maybe that will help some. If I connect those devices to the node with Ethernet, in most instances, that should turn the Wi-Fi radios off, correct?
In terms of how far the radios can reach, yes, they can reach far. But, the further away they are, the signal degrades and the speed lessens. That's why I'm so interested in roaming, to maintain the best speeds possible. I've used Wi-Fi analyzer apps and I've learned that once my signal is worse than -70 from the router or the node, the speed drops significantly. But my devices do not seem to roam right away, if at all. Thanks again for the suggestions.

 

[OzarkEdge]

I do think I might need to move my node away from a couple devices with Wi-Fi radios. Maybe that will help some.

A single IoT device sitting 'on top of' a node can mess it up in my experience.

If I connect those devices to the node with Ethernet, in most instances, that should turn the Wi-Fi radios off, correct?

No. Connecting Ethernet just means the device now has two network connections... LAN and WLAN. Avoid this.

But do wire as much as you can... one less thing to debug and/or to burden your WiFi/user experience. And then turn OFF client WiFi you are not using. Also turn OFF WiFi Direct APs you do not use, like in wireless printers that you have wired to your LAN.

In terms of how far the radios can reach, yes, they can reach far. But, the further away they are, the signal degrades and the speed lessens. That's why I'm so interested in roaming, to maintain the best speeds possible. I've used Wi-Fi analyzer apps and I've learned that once my signal is worse than -70 from the router or the node, the speed drops significantly. But my devices do not seem to roam right away, if at all. Thanks again for the suggestions.

Yes, but you must strike a balance between client speed and proper AP distribution. You can not simply put all APs together, stand close, and expect top speeds. You have to accept some signal attenuation/speed degradation at distance before the client roams to the next AP as you move closer to it.

Draw two circles that overlap just a little bit. Label them -70dBm... the power of the WiFi signals broadcasting from the APs at their centers when measured on each circle. As you roam out of one circle, your client should eventually decide to look for a better/more positive signal than -70-dBm. For your equipment and space and clients, you have to determine if -70dBm is the right target power/circle radius and how much the circles should overlap. With some trial and error, you'll settle on a target power, radius, and overlap. Get something like this working first before you use Roaming Assistant, if at all... I eventually turned it OFF and just let my clients decide. -70dBm is a reasonable starting point if the client connection begins to fade or suffer too much... -35dBm is not... too strong... nodes are too close. Note that the default RSSI thresholds for Roaming Assistant are -70dBm... a good starting point.

A Pro installer could explain this better and would have proper equipment to measure with and would have APs that offer more control over signal power, direction, etc. You have to get close enough by guesstimating with what you have. Just don't expect a router setting to do it all for you... the routers are ON and blasting WiFi... work with that... your best tool is placement... don't let your fixed cabling restrict your layout more than you should. Ideally, you don't want to take the next step and reduce AP Tx power (or turn OFF radios) to compensate for the APs being too close together... because you still want a signal when you are lounging on your neighbor's deck!

OE

 

[Androidian]

Thank you! That info helps a lot!

 

[Tech9]

Use one 5GHz radio only - it's more than enough. Disable SmartConnect- otherwise what @OzarkEdge is telling you may not work. 2.4GHz band has wider range and -70dBm is different area circle. With SmartConnect enabled some devices may stick to stronger 2.4GHz signal and stay there.

 

[Androidian]

Thanks! Just to verify, in AiMesh, devices will roam even with Roaming Assistant disabled, there is no roaming or band steering without temporary disconnects, and a device can't roam and switch bands at the same time, correct? I'm just wondering if AiMesh is worth it at all. My old setup with one router avoided disconnects but the range was limited. I eventually added an access point and had to manually switch to it when I was out of range. That is the situation I was trying to improve upon. I think the XT8's might have better range. So I could use only one of them or I could use both but turn some of the radios off. That seems to be the only way to really avoid any disconnects. Or maybe bind my non-stationary devices to the router or node.

 

[OzarkEdge]

Use one 5GHz radio only - it's more than enough. Disable SmartConnect- otherwise what @OzarkEdge is telling you may not work. 2.4GHz band has wider range and -70dBm is different area circle. With SmartConnect enabled some devices may stick to stronger 2.4GHz signal and stay there.

Separate SSIDs and only connect to the preferred band is in post #6 above and my notes. Anyone who thinks they will learn it all in one post... should see my notes!

My clients work fine here with Smart Connect and same SSIDs, but I would save using SC for later.

OE

 

[OzarkEdge]

Thanks! Just to verify, in AiMesh, devices will roam even with Roaming Assistant disabled, there is no roaming or band steering without temporary disconnects, and a device can't roam and switch bands at the same time, correct? I'm just wondering if AiMesh is worth it at all. My old setup with one router avoided disconnects but the range was limited. I eventually added an access point and had to manually switch to it when I was out of range. That is the situation I was trying to improve upon. I think the XT8's might have better range. So I could use only one of them or I could use both but turn some of the radios off. That seems to be the only way to really avoid any disconnects. Or maybe bind my non-stationary devices to the router or node.

RA will disconnect your clients. Instead, let your clients decide when to roam and deploy your nodes to help them.

Disable SC and RA. Set different SSIDs and only connect to the preferred band.

AiMesh roaming here is better than with traditional APs and repeaters... mostly seamless depending on the client and traffic.

Binding clients is for masochists and extreme clients.

OE

 

[Androidian]

Thanks again!!

 

[Androidian]

I used to use my old router, AC-68, with the same SSID and password for both 2.4 and 5. That router does not have smart connect so I wasn't using it. My devices seemed to do fine connecting to the right band and I didn't have any disconnects that I remember. I used an access point with a different SSID and password only on 2.4 for my IoT devices. That seemed to work fine for the most part. So, now with the XT8's, would it makes sense to use one SSID for 2.4 and then a different SSID that is the same for both 5-1 and 5-2, without using smart connect? It was just an idea I thought of and I'm trying to consider my options to get the best results. Thanks.

 

[Tech9]

Separate SSIDs and only connect to the preferred band is in post #6 above and my notes.

I know. Seems like no advice will change the need for constant tweaking. I'm out.

 

[Androidian]

I'm not trying to constantly tweak. I'm trying to find the best solution so I can leave it alone. That's why I'm trying to think of all the big picture ideas first. I tried the default settings and it wasn't working well for me. Thank you for the information and your advice. It's much appreciated.

 

[Tech9]

I'm trying to find the best solution so I can leave it alone.

Give it some time after making changes. The effect is not instant. Good luck.

 

[OzarkEdge]

I used to use my old router, AC-68, with the same SSID and password for both 2.4 and 5. That router does not have smart connect so I wasn't using it. My devices seemed to do fine connecting to the right band and I didn't have any disconnects that I remember. I used an access point with a different SSID and password only on 2.4 for my IoT devices. That seemed to work fine for the most part. So, now with the XT8's, would it makes sense to use one SSID for 2.4 and then a different SSID that is the same for both 5-1 and 5-2, without using smart connect? It was just an idea I thought of and I'm trying to consider my options to get the best results. Thanks.

I would hesitate to compare one older dual-band AC1900 unit to two newer tri-band AX6600 units. Although your clients band-steered themselves with the AC68U... as far as you know, I would not plan on this with your new equipment. Instead, I would configure the new wireless according to what the firmware allows you to configure, in view of your understanding of bandwidth and channel allocation and DFS affects (see the chart). If a Smart Connect configuration suits you, try it; otherwise, leave it off and set different SSIDs.

For the IoT devices, consider using a guest1 WLAN that only allows Internet access, if they and their apps will tolerate this.

Tri-band WiFi6 that squeezes two WLANs into the 5.0 band seems like an unnecessary complication if you are not using the 5-2 4x4 WLAN for a dedicated wireless backhaul. I would probably configure it like a wireless backhaul as they intended and then just use it for clients. This would likely cause you to segregate clients you otherwise would not segregate, 5-1 and 5-2.

OE

 

[Androidian]

Thanks! I also thought it would be a good idea to put my IoT devices on the guest network. But it did not work well for some reason, maybe it was my devices. They would roam too much and I was not able to bind them on the guest network. As soon as I put them on my regular network I was able to bind them. Not sure if that is by design or a bug.

I actually like using 5-2 and 5-1 along with the wired backhaul. My only problem was with the roaming and disconnects, which wasn't unique to the 5ghz band. Once I figure out how to avoid the roaming and disconnects I should be good to go. I'm thinking if I do separate SSIDs like you said and just leave roaming assistant and smart connect off, I should be okay. It may not always roam to the stronger signal right away, but sometimes it does, and I don't notice any disconnects. Thanks again!