Advice needed on how to go about cheap home 10GBE

[forlotto]

First off sorry for the TLR

I have read a lot of postings and have not really found an answer I was too keen on and it is important to state my position in all this as clearly as possible both for better understanding and for all the other bricks in the wall. (And if I am lucky maybe some CEO will read this and understand there is a bit more to life than how many digital numbers you can personally obtain on a screen and more to healthy economics! news flash everyone faces the same end game so to me it makes since to allow everyone a fair share of the freedoms that these numbers bring you or else those numbers will eventually just be that numbers or points with worth about as much as a score card. This should be equally as important to everyone especially the potential bag holders of all of these numbers.)

I have the option for 1GB/1GB internet currently I had it installed to realize both their equipment was faulty and my equipment couldn't handle the juice.

It turns out that most consumer equipment is not.

There was an interesting thing that I learned in the process that broadcom uses a closed source ctf.ko software based module to allow them to achieve near GB speed and all of these GB consumer routers are really not GBE they use basically tricks to make them achieve this speed so it is a false advertisement.

Knowing this has really gotten me in the mood to future proof things say if they start offering things like fiber to home like sigmatel does at 10GB etc...

So what I would like to know is there any cheap ways of doing this primarily using CAT7 cable I look at a lot of this sfp stuff and fiber stuff and realize its advantages in a server setting indeed but for me I want no pipe limitations between my equipment and their equipment thus the reasoning behind it all I would much rather operate at the floor than the ceiling of equipment.

But I find it near impossible to find affordable equipment for the home user and I would bet I am not the only home user these days facing the same wonder. With rollout of fiber across the US many different people are seeing the internet part 2 come to life.

While I have read the many sentiments of folks saying things like bluray only uses 30MB etc etc I have a different take on things why not advance when it is possible to do so. 10GBe is short of anything NEW it has been around as a standard for some time and with the advent of fiber it just makes since. Speed is something that isn't lacking in anyone's DNA when it comes to computing we all would like to see more.

With the Advent of things like the M.2 standard allowing over GB speeds for SSD drives it is possible that we have reached yet tech which is hitting its head on this ceiling. We also see a huge influx of multiple family homes due to economics and really the economics issues we face I believe has a bigger part to do with tech being held back from consumers and a free market economy vs a fair market economy (no I am not saying we should be socialists.) but, I also think that things like the LCD TV price fixing scheme helps economics as well almost all of the top companies were in on this. It used to be healthy competition that ran our economics pushing innovation forward but now the companies get together and say I won't underbid you if you don't underbid me lets use "whatever price inserted here" and keep it there for x amount of time. It almost seems like SSD makers did the same thing and these 10GBE folks are also a part of this scheme as well. It is all a greedy game folks open up the floodgates lets advance lets compete lets have that fair market economy that works for others and does not just keep building the numbers in your bank account. Lets build something that is going to be here long after your spoils rot and you are ashes lets build a future!

I find it interesting how people downplay the want for affordable 10GBE equipment is it really that much more expensive to make the stuff 10GBE and what I mean by that is does it cost the manufacturing party that much more from sand in the ground to chips on a board I really don't believe so I think their has been enough profit off of the false 1GB hack routers to fund their operations many times over it boils down to the spoils being as much of a hindering factor as a motivational factor. As once you have the spoils you can keep things as is personally though I believe not one consumer router should be allowed to be called a 1GBE based router they all are failures in truth to provide "real" fabric.

Personally what I would like is a 4 Lan 1 Wan Wired Router and some NIC's to match it at a fair price all 10GBE and something that will actually put out the speed advertised not some cheap hack job all working off of CAT7 and possibly CAT6a cable as I believe that was originally in the spec at 55meters max if I recall correct.

The rest of my equipment such as wireless access can be slower but the main pipe in your home should be fat and should be future proof while we may not from a technicians standpoint "need it" I think many people would like that sense of security knowing their connection is as good as it is going to get for some time and knowing that their equipment is real fabric and not just some bottleneck hack job.

For the record I do realize that when you handle NAT it does take a lot of processing power but that has also come way down in price to be honest their is no real reason these days not to move forward with the rest of the computing wave other than inflated pricing on a not so new technology.

And maybe I am missing something but is there anything that currently exists for a user with my needs what are my options and what is the costs associated with the options I am perfectly fine with used goods maybe even broken non functional goods if need be. I would just like something affordable to fix this personal issue that I believe is not just personal to me but to other users out there as well.

 

[System Error Message]

SFP+ with direct SFP+ to SFP+. Its cheap on the networking equipment but pricey cards.
Alternatively check out TILEGX 9 core network cards.

Currently the mikrotik CCR1036 is the cheapest router that'll do 28Gb/s of NAT using the same amount of power as a light bulb but it has only 2 SFP+ ports. They're coming out with a newer one probably around 2 years which will be the CCR1072 wuth 8 SFP+ ports and capable of wirespeed software NAT.

The alternative is a cisco edgerouter which consumes up to 7KW (depends on how many modules you have) and costs many times more.

Currently the CCR software NAT throughput is a lot cheaper than consumer routers hardware NAT per Gb/s.

I know current solutions arent small and cheap enough but there are solutions currently available and while they cost more they are still cheaper than consumer solutions in price/performance

 

[L&LD]

SFP+ with direct SFP+ to SFP+. Its cheap on the networking equipment but pricey cards.
Alternatively check out TILEGX 9 core network cards.

Currently the mikrotik CCR1036 is the cheapest router that'll do 28Gb/s of NAT using the same amount of power as a light bulb but it has only 2 SFP+ ports. They're coming out with a newer one probably around 2 years which will be the CCR1072 wuth 8 SFP+ ports and capable of wirespeed software NAT.

The alternative is a cisco edgerouter which consumes up to 7KW (depends on how many modules you have) and costs many times more.

Currently the CCR software NAT throughput is a lot cheaper than consumer routers hardware NAT per Gb/s

What does that have to do with 10GBe networking?

 

[System Error Message]

First off sorry for the TLR
I have the option for 1GB/1GB internet currently I had it installed to realize both their equipment was faulty and my equipment couldn't handle the juice.

It turns out that most consumer equipment is not.

There was an interesting thing that I learned in the process that broadcom uses a closed source ctf.ko software based module to allow them to achieve near GB speed and all of these GB consumer routers are really not GBE they use basically tricks to make them achieve this speed so it is a false advertisement.

Knowing this has really gotten me in the mood to future proof things say if they start offering things like fiber to home like sigmatel does at 10GB etc...

So what I would like to know is there any cheap ways of doing this primarily using CAT7 cable I look at a lot of this sfp stuff and fiber stuff and realize its advantages in a server setting indeed but for me I want no pipe limitations between my equipment and their equipment thus the reasoning behind it all I would much rather operate at the floor than the ceiling of equipment.


I find it interesting how people downplay the want for affordable 10GBE equipment is it really that much more expensive to make the stuff 10GBE and what I mean by that is does it cost the manufacturing party that much more from sand in the ground to chips on a board I really don't believe so I think their has been enough profit off of the false 1GB hack routers to fund their operations many times over it boils down to the spoils being as much of a hindering factor as a motivational factor. As once you have the spoils you can keep things as is personally though I believe not one consumer router should be allowed to be called a 1GBE based router they all are failures in truth to provide "real" fabric.

Personally what I would like is a 4 Lan 1 Wan Wired Router and some NIC's to match it at a fair price all 10GBE and something that will actually put out the speed advertised not some cheap hack job all working off of CAT7 and possibly CAT6a cable as I believe that was originally in the spec at 55meters max if I recall correct.

And maybe I am missing something but is there anything that currently exists for a user with my needs what are my options and what is the costs associated with the options I am perfectly fine with used goods maybe even broken non functional goods if need be. I would just like something affordable to fix this personal issue that I believe is not just personal to me but to other users out there as well.

Read the post and you will see he is also asking for a hypothetical solution

 

[L&LD]

Read the post and you will see he is also asking for a hypothetical solution

Agreed.

But your suggestions of the same equipment (i.e. non-consumer) over and over again are neither cheap in price nor in resources to setup and continue using.

 

[System Error Message]

Agreed.

But your suggestions of the same equipment (i.e. non-consumer) over and over again are neither cheap in price nor in resources to setup and continue using.

I was going to add linux based GPU router with 10Gbe NICs as well as that has already been done. There arent consumer ones available so nothing to suggest from there.

 

[L&LD]

I was going to add linux based GPU router with 10Gbe NICs as well as that has already been done. There arent consumer ones available so nothing to suggest from there.

I don't think you understand 'consumer', 'cheap' or 'simple'.

 

[System Error Message]

I don't think you understand 'consumer', 'cheap' or 'simple'.

I'd like to see a cheap consumer router that does that but currently there isnt one. Is there even a consume router with SFP? Besides a lot of consumers have started using pfsense and UTM boxes so setting up a linux based GPU accelerated router isnt going to be that difficult considering that it was already done and out there to download and use it.

 

[sfx2000]

There's a good series on the Main Site regarding a 10GigE buildout for a small office...

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanw...ions-of-a-10-gbe-network-newbie-part-1-basics

 

[L&LD]

sfx2000, it is a good read. But that was 18 months ago.

And the worst part? Almost nothing has changed since then.

 

[sfx2000]

I have the option for 1GB/1GB internet currently I had it installed to realize both their equipment was faulty and my equipment couldn't handle the juice.

It turns out that most consumer equipment is not.

There was an interesting thing that I learned in the process that broadcom uses a closed source ctf.ko software based module to allow them to achieve near GB speed and all of these GB consumer routers are really not GBE they use basically tricks to make them achieve this speed so it is a false advertisement.

Knowing this has really gotten me in the mood to future proof things say if they start offering things like fiber to home like sigmatel does at 10GB etc...

first off, I'm not sure that 10G is needed at a common consumer level - there are use cases that would seriously benefit, but since the home market is very biased towards WiFi, and how folks do their computing these days, 10G is still a luxury, not a necessity.

That being said... SOHO gateway can and should do a better job with Gigabit WAN connections.

With Gigabit connections becoming more common, we're seeing limitation - and this is a design issue at it's core..

Most, if not all, of the consumer grade routers share common DNA - and the limitation is that the routing is software based. It uses the networking layer in Linux (or BSD for a certain company over in Cupertino), so every packet from the WAN to the LAN has to be processed by the CPU core/cores... and this is interrupt driven, which faster clock speeds help more that actual compute resources inside the SoC...

Broadcom's CTF.ko attempts to solve part of that problem, moving some of the packet handling back down into the GigE functional block inside the SoC (this is all thru concentrated study and reverse engineering, as BRCM doesn't release that source).

This was all good for the time - 100Mbit connections on the WAN were once very rare, but now we're seeing it as the starting tier in some countries and markets, and it won't be long before we see 500Mbit/Gigabit being the baseline...

How to fix? It's going to take some major work - hardware and software rearchitecture of the SoC's that are used, moving more of the packet handling back down the stack, and really moving the CPU into a supervisory role in the control plane, and letting the data plane be handled by the switch...

 

[forlotto]

I have to disagree to a small degree I hear of more people ditching the wireless for the wire in my area due to latency issues for their gaming pc's especially just recently I had a Netflix user that complained of the service he was getting so what did he do he ditched his wireless for a wired connection and fixed his issues as it was it was a lot cheaper to do this than upgrade his PC and other hardware wireless is great for devices and laptops but the people I speak to seem to be going the opposite way which was kind of interesting to me. I live in a fairly small town and seeing this happen shocked me I was under the same impression you were for the longest time I have others saying I am tired of having to buy a laptop every couple years because of heating issues so they are moving back to the wired desktop on their next purchase.

It is interesting but to make folks happy completely it seems as if more and more people want to be connected where it matters by wire and where it doesn't matter on lower powered portable devices wireless is fine for them. But one thing in common is they all want a fat pipe to their home at a fair price for their netflix, gaming, etc... And as I said everyone wants to be connected doing their own thing with as little interruptions as possible. One fella wants his wireless to reach a few acres of his property but he also wants hard wired connections in his shops that are suitable and future proof.

It is a common thread when I talk to people the internet sucks even though we have this "fast internet" and I always try to correct them by explaining why their internet sucks and it is actually because of their hardware they have great connections actually! I think consumers do need the option really why do we always try and sit back and collect a gravy train of money on sub par stuff for extended periods of time and then release some added features to the sub par stuff and collect more money until the big ooops comes along? Ooops maybe we should have been reinvesting some of this cash back into development for consumer markets and really do what our consumers have expected us to do a long while ago now the truth is out they know about our hack job false advertisement of fabric that is capable as it is only under certain conditions that the fabric is capable they better not want to use the features of their router and expect to get speed that is advertised! Oh nooo they actually expect this crap gotta get to work.

It is just silly to me basically we have a system that allows and promotes this type of behavior as to where any form of false advertisement would have been considered largely a criminal offense we live in a time where false advertisement is the number 1 promotion and it is allowed.

I can't agree more they need a rework of things really and to be honest these corporations should have been using some of their millions or billions on things other than sub par devices that they can use to fudge the numbers and falsely advertise and rip off their consumers but wait we have to look good for share holders! pffffft looking good for share holders should not be allowed to be based off of the metric of profit alone in a quarter or fiscal year we really need to get that out of our heads if we want to improve the way of life there are far more important metrics. To me what AMD does as a company should be a model for shareholders really their stock is only valued at like 2.00 per share or less than that but yet they keep moving society forward by competing the old way and setting new standards for what it means to have processing power we need more companies of this caliber and more investors that look at these metrics. Look at all the stuff they are involved in that hugely plays a role the desktop, laptop, netbook markets. They make graphics cards that are extremely advanced currently only one of two companies to do so. They are also responsible for the latest game stations using Jaguar cores being the PS4 and the Xbox One. Why shouldn't investors support such an effort instead of supporting who can rip the consumer of the most logic it is a rather upside down thing.

Now I am not saying anything you said is completely wrong in what you are stating but I think we should all stop waiting for the crap or get off the pot moment to make progress 10GBE for the consumer is long overdue.

 

[forlotto]

Another interesting article for the wireless junkies that promises speed in 2018 http://www.extremetech.com/computin...eally-need-a-10gbps-connection-to-your-laptop

But really this is apples to oranges to support that extreme data rate over our networks we need "real fabric" I believe this firmly.

Reasons to upgrade:
- To remain competitive and advance society.
- Improvement in communications and infrastructure.
- More real time data needs for the home user (less latent connections)
- 80211.ax is on the way.
- Roll out of residential fiber
- Multifamily homes due to tough economic times.
- Streaming of high definition media 4k 8k
- Potential 10GB to home fiber connections
- SSD speeds
- IOT is expected to be a 19billion dollar market (Internet Of Things) this will require more network capacity!!!
- It is long overdue from my research http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240046092/10-Gigabit-Ethernet-standard-ratified

Look at the dates on that article lol! June 2002 for those who do not wish to look! It is over 13 years since it has became a standard and there is still nothing for consumers. Does money actually motivate corporations to move forward or does it just motivate them to make more money off the same old same old you be the judge. We had unlimited data phone plans, internet etc.... Now we have moved backwards and have tiered packaging that only allows you to use 2GB of data. It is a ripoff these companies make way to much money for repackaging plans giving you less and making you pay more I think it is time we start building our way forward. We need to bring something of value to society and stop repackaging and falsely labeling stuff sure it needs work but I believe a lot of folks need an adjustment in thinking. You cannot expect to charge a customer for basically doing nothing other than rationing services and charging them all these overage fees and then late fees because they don't have the money to pay such insane bills. I assure you it won't end up well it is these little quirks in our ideology that is driving economics into the ground you cannot expect to keep taking without giving back. A strong economic system is a system where nobody "wins" per say it is like monopoly have you ever actually played a game completely until the last dollar is gone I doubt it really most folks say ok you have a ton of money I don't have to waste any more time trying to figure out the outcome.

We have had the technology for years and we fail to act upon it for over a decade!!!

These are the real reasons well that and there are probably a lot of lazy network admins who do not want to run cabling because that would constitute manual labor as well or upgrade equipment and setup new equipment they are not familiar with and really I do get where they are coming from some jobs just ain't as fun as others or maybe we have been allowed to be lazy and out of shape for so long that it is a real chore or possibly there are a lot of obstructions or regulations that have changed etc... etc.. But don't hold back progress for these selfish reasons because you are literally a part of the problem in the bigger picture. And to be clear this is not directed at anyone in this thread it is just open discussion.

 

[sfx2000]

Reasons to upgrade:
- To remain competitive and advance society.
- Improvement in communications and infrastructure.
- More real time data needs for the home user (less latent connections)
- 80211.ax is on the way.
- Roll out of residential fiber
- Multifamily homes due to tough economic times.
- Streaming of high definition media 4k 8k
- Potential 10GB to home fiber connections
- SSD speeds
- IOT is expected to be a 19billion dollar market (Internet Of Things) this will require more network capacity!!!

None of these are reasons to have 10GB inside the LAN/WALN to be honest...

- Remain competive, blah, blah - how does this impact things when most folks can't even get GiGE and/or leverage the bandwidth there - this is a policy wonk statement

- Improvement in communications/infra - again, policy wonk stuff - nice to see this on the WAN, but on the local LAN/WLAN, not an issues

- More real time data needs - most folks again, they can't saturate GigE much less N450, even though vendors want your to buy AC1900...

- 802.11ax - ok, what of it?

- Residential Fiber - e.g. Gigabit - perhaps, but there's no need for 10G inside the LAN for it, as most residential GW's and SOHO routers choke on that level of BW - and this is a architecture issue that needs to be solved at some point, just not right now

- Multiple Home Residents - sorry, it's not just tough economics - go into an Apartment/Condo complex, much less hotels, this is becoming more common - 10G isn't going to solve this, because again, at the carrier level, this is somewhat of a business issue there...

- HD streaming - 11ac can take care of that with 1GigE on the backend, but when looks at 4K, consider that 1 hour of 4K is about 17 gigs on content at 2K/Sec decodes - is this really an issue, or something to avoid?

- 10G fiber to the house - that's a way off, and there's no business or political drive behind that, most are happy right now pushing 1GB

- SSD speed - who cares? on the internet, it doesn't matter

- IoT - this is not a speed issue, this is a capacity issue, along with authentication and privacy - most IoT clients are low power and they're lossy, and their interactions with the internet are opportunity driven - because they are low power and lossy/ they present their own network/routing challenges..

Just my thoughts/opinions...

How about yours?

 

[forlotto]

"N"

I assume you mean Nice and agree to disagree if otherwise.

 

[sfx2000]

I assume you mean Nice and agree to disagree if otherwise.

I do, can ask many, I'm really a nice guy

 

[forlotto]

Excellent glad we both speak the same language nice.

I just recognize a need for this and there was a provider like sigmatel or something like that who is moving to provide 10GB to home internet connections already from my understanding read an article on it somewhere.

I really think in my opinion if you are against the advancement of networking you just have to have an alternate motive that would want you to be against such a thing. You own a web hosting business you are afraid of skynet becoming a reality there is some fear that drives you to want to obstruct such a thing from happening maybe you have stake in something but to object to something like moving technology fwd kind of tells me there is something that you are not telling us. Your opinions are as you say wonk statements through my eyes as well while you do raise some good points you even call my logical opinions wonk statements.


Do you know of anything that currently exists to meet the expectations of the home user beyond what you have posted already if not I believe I have heard enough argument against the advancement of technology to make any one think twice about how you are involved in the whole picture. " I think we should hold everything back not right now" Unless there is some real reason why consumers should not be allowed this technology. Every reason I can think of is really a selfish reason. I guess you can argue for security but in honesty we have not been so great in that department with current technology maybe the extra speed will help us in the long run there.

So I guess I do have one more question:

What is your interest in all of this in holding back consumers for getting 10GBE ?
What drives you to be one with this logic?
I want to know what you are into behind all of the wonk talk.
You work for or you work with or you are in fear of x happening I want to get down to the bread under all the butter you have gave us.
Why make consumers wait to fix a bottle neck when it becomes a problem why not open it up and let the tech flow in. I want to see your real reason not just because everything can be handled now that to me is as you say wonk. I want to really know why you would intentionally side with those who choose to stifle innovation?

Just answer my couple of questions or don't.

But I will leave it at this to prevent anyone from looking like they are trying to get jollies off by trolling on this topic cause it surely is likely not either of our intentions.

 

[System Error Message]

one thing you forgot is that its not yet possible to support 10G home connections until the Tier 2 and Tier 1 ISP networks improve. When a large number of users download in the same area it either puts too much load on the ISP's hardware or the uplink cable to the backbone isnt big enough.

Tier 1 bandwidths hasnt improve for quite a while. Doing speed tests from multiple countries i found that whenever i do a speed test to other countries (regardless of what country you're from) you get a lot less bandwidth

 

[forlotto]

Indeed but when I think of it I recall the release of 1.5MB DSL back when and I am sure most of us do.

At this time we were positioned with a wide variety of 100MB nic's for the consumer base... At that time we were in the same boat we are now we didn't have needs for all of it. But guess what we did it anyways. You see I think we should leave the holes open wide and let technology flow in we may not have 10GB but the writing is on the wall and we are essentially being caught with our pants down http://www.realtytoday.com/articles...google-10-gigabit-internet-speeds-5421709.htm or how about this one https://golightpath.com/1gb-10gb or maybe even this one http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/com...-gpon-pilot-service-for-residential-customers I guess is not all that impossible to provide.

Think of this the providers make insane amounts of income monthly if you have 1 million subscribers paying 100 dollars a month that is 100million dollars a month you can do a lot with that money and it is funny that every other service field you are expected to provide a good service and come up with new and great things every so often this is all part of that service driven field but as soon as you get into anything like networking, or alternative energy and other key markets there is always some lobby that holds these things back so they can keep collecting cash off of their investment like a fat cat and not spend some of that money lobbying against the improvement and squeeze yet more out of their investment rather than spending it to improve their offerings. This is a proven fact time and time again it goes back to the light bulb historically speaking and ever since then the fat cats have used this light bulb principle more and more it is infectious really get more give less tell them it is best for them because X (fill in the reason.) It is down right absurd really.

Lets sit back give you nothing actually give you less and charge more and move to strike every competitive action, statement etc.... This seems to be the model.

It is not only the hack job routers that need fixing it is the business model in the tech fields as well unless someone enlightens me with a good reason.

As I said "HOME BASED" I am not asking for providers to provide me 10GB now it is no different than buying a 100MB nic 15 years ago they were affordable but yet consumers did not need them right at that time. It helped a lot though in ensuring that their hardware would be useful for the tech that that little NIC has brought about!

Still I ask does anyone know of a home solution to 10GBE that is cheap simple and works with CAT7 cabling beyond what has been posted here these folks may not want it or ever want it to see the light of day but I am one of many who does!?

People don't need development platforms as robust as they are now either, they don't need cars that go as fast as they do, there is a lot of things that we don't need but in the scope of things all of these things we don't need help us evolve I just wish we could evolve away from this push back against evolution in networking other places I agree things may have been better back when when it comes to true wonk policies.

 

[funhouse69]

I am a computer / networking guy and I would love to see 10G over Copper for the home and I am sure we will see it eventually, it is pretty common place these days in the Data Center along with 40G but it will be sometime before we see it come down in price enough to be even remotely affordable.

I do a lot of photo / video editing and with today's SATA 3 Drives and SSDs it is simple to saturate a single gig link and while Link Aggregation is very common and supported on even some relatively low end switches it doesn't work how most would like it do. Even with the new SMB Version 3 which supports Multi-Path you aren't going to get more than 1G over a your multi-link connection / file copy unless you breakup your file copies in to multiple file copies which will then create different connections.

So since I don't see this changing anytime soon the only way to get faster network file copies is to get faster links and 10G would be awesome. I looked in to it before buying my Synology but realized we just aren't there yet and probably won't be for the foreseeable future. So I opted for a regular version with 4 ports in a LAG Group, sure it load balances but as mentioned above only a single TCP Connection so only 1G Max.

That said I do agree that 10G is way overkill for the "Average" user. Most people are thrilled with their Wireless G Wireless and that is fine for them but there are a lot of power users out there that wireless will just never be an option even with the newer standards out / coming out you still need the wired uplink to support it or at least other devices that will support it.