Access Point Advice

[magic]

Hi:

I need to get 1-2 access points to cover half my house but I can't decide on what to buy. I have a EdgeRouter-4, and a Asus RT-68U turned into an access point currently. I have a ~2500 sq ft., 2 story home. First floor is CMU and the 2nd floor is wood/drywall construction. I tried the Omada EAP-225 (3x) with the hardware controller but I couldn't get the seamless roaming to work and I just wan't happy with the pass-through power and range, especially compared to my Asus so I returned it. If using the Asus as a gauge, the Asus power is really good so I want to keep that as an access point for one half of the house. The other half would be whatever new equipment I get next with seamless roaming (if more than 1).
Here are the options I'm thinking of right now and I wanted some feedback/suggestions:

1) Get a 2nd Asus, either same model or a step up, e.g., 86U and do the Aimesh between my existing and the new one.
2) Get ONE Ruckus R510 unleashed from Amazon in hope that all I would need is the ONE to cover the remaining half of the house.
3) Cisco CBW240 sounded like a good option but it seemed like I would need at least 2. If I only need 2, then this is another very viable option, if that 2 doesn't cut it, I'll be pretty sick. Unless someone has a good comparison/experience for me to hear about.


#1, can be very inexpensive if I get the same model, little dated but still performs well so far. But if the Asus aimesh doesn't work well, then that's not good. I know the power works well in my house based on real usage so no guessing there.

#2, is it really true I won't get warranty if purchased thru Amazon?? Sounds like I can get the firmware but still mixed messages on the internet whether can or cannot if bought from Amazon. I can't justify paying the cost from a reseller, especially without knowing if I can get by with only one or not. But I might be willing to gamble on buying from amazon with the limited to no support. Maybe I can live without the warranty (pray is last a few years), but if no firmware, this is out of the question.



Please help!!


Thanks,
magic

 

[Trip]

@magic - So first off, if you do go the business AP route, to have any chance of success, you need to understand the major difference between business and consumer-grade wifi: namely, power and amplification levels, intended use-case and how best to engineer around the design differences. Consumer stuff generally has higher amounts of both, designed under the paradigm of blasting maximum signal (and consequently noise) across as much area as possible, from the least amount of hardware required. Business-grade APs are almost the complete opposite, designed at usually lower power/amplification, to create tighter broadcasts, as they're often serving higher client densities, more lower-throughput streams and addressing additional coverage with more APs (as opposed to just blasting more signal per AP). That last part is also why you see most business APs sold as controller-based systems (ie. a single software "brain" to coordinate two or more APs working together to seamlessly balance and move clients and traffic).

When moving ahead in selecting APs, then, it's crucial to understand the points above, so you think more like a wifi engineer when you go to upgrade the network. Chances are, you'll have to add and/or re-position ethernet drops to create a balanced layout of more APs across the same amount of space. Otherwise, if you just go replacing like-for-like in the same spots, you're probably going to be left disappointed by how "low-power" most APs seem. And yes, there are higher-power APs, but besides additional expense and power-draw, relying too heavily on higher-power broadcasts with them will end up producing the same limitations you're looking to get away from with consumer wifi (weak performance at the edges; poor performance with higher amounts of clients; and worse seamless roaming behavior). So enough drops and proper placement are very important. This is probably the single biggest paradigm shift that eludes mode SNB'ers in making the jump between consumer and business-grade wifi gear.

Relating this to your situation, just 2500 square feet, I don't think a switch to business-grade APs would be much of an undertaking; likely just two normal low-to-medium power APs, one on each floor, instead of a single all-in-one. If the Omada discrete controller approach didn't cut it for you, look at an embedded controller product like Cisco CBW, which has the controller already built into the AP firmware. Fewer moving parts; higher reliability and "just works" factor. If you're sensitive on both price and active support, I would avoid used enterprise gear like Ruckus (as good as it is) and look at Cisco CBW or Aruba Instant On. I bet one CBW140AC or 240AC on each floor would do very well for you.

Hope that helps. Any questions, feel free.

 

[magic]

@Trip - Hey thanks so much. This really helped my observation between the business and consumer-grade wifi. I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the Cisco but not exactly sure on which. I was hoping to get a PoE and non-PoE option unit so I have more power options but looks like that boots the cost so I need to factor in the cost for the injector(s) too now.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[magic]

@Trip - I wasn't sure if I should create a new post but I'm going to ask here. I decided to pull the trigger on the CBW240 (x2) and I'm supposed to get it at the end of the week. My question is regarding the mounting position of the Cisco CBW140/240 for multi-floor dwellings. Actually, this can pertain to any wall and/or ceiling mount access point unit.

While trying to understand the radiation pattern and planning the placement of the units, the majority of the signal seems to emit out the "front" ("rear" being the mounting area). What I'm not understanding is, why does the vast majority of people (at least the ones I read) place 1 unit per floor for say a 2 storey dwelling. It seems to make more sense to have each unit on the 2nd floor (finished ceiling), equidistant and central, and have the signal rain down everywhere, including the bottom floor.

For my house, the general shape is rectangular so if go one per floor, I would think the horizontal placement would remain roughly the same as if it was on the 2nd floor as I mentioned. But the one on the bottom floor, assuming I ceiling mount it, wouldn't the upper area receive less signals because it's facing the rear of the unit? Additionally, shouldn't you place the lower floor unit, facing up (e.g., top of shelf) vs. ceiling mounting the lower floor unit?

Do I have this all wrong?


Thanks,
magic

 

[Trip]

@magic - Most ceiling-mount "saucer" style APs with typical single-digit-dBi omni antennas will broadcast more of an oval/donut-shaped radiation pattern, with longer dimension and majority of volume in the horizontal plane, or azimuth, and a shorter dimension and minority of volume in the vertical plane, or elevation. Applied to a traditional ceiling-mount, that radiation shape will almost always translate to a lot more coverage across a single floor versus down vertically through multiple floors, and is why you see almost all advice suggesting a balance of APs per floor, rather than place all APs together on a single top floor aiming "downwards" (such an arrangement would likely generate too much side-by-side co-interference and not enough downward penetration to the floor(s) below).

Specifically, the CBW 140AC and 240AC are actually just Aironet 1815i and 1840i hardware. The 240AC (1840i) has a 4dBi 2.4Ghz and 5dBi 5Ghz antenna, which if you lookup radiation patterns, will adhere to the general "oval" or "flattened donut" type shape I described above.

That said, no amount of theoretical posturing beats actual survey testing with the APs onsite. Using a PoE switch or injector and some long patch cords, mount them up in both configurations, spaced for what you estimate would be the best total coverage, and then test with a smartphone or laptop running a wifi signal analyzer app as you walk around the house, and see for yourself. I have a hunch you'll find one AP per floor will yield the better overall results, but maybe not. The only way to tell for sure is to try.

Hope that helps again.

 

[magic]

Hi:

Sorry for the delay but I wanted to report back my experience so far.

So it's been about 3 weeks and I've been running two Cisco CBW240, one on each floor. I'm really stretching the limits with these 2 units as I am trying to get roaming coverage on the outside of the house as well. @Trip, you were pretty spot on all the things you mentioned. The CBW240 power is really good, and the roaming works great. The overall responsiveness for all the switching is really fast, between bands and access points. Setup was really easy. Boot up is a little slow but it hasn't flinched in the 3 weeks. I have a land line phone on wifi (for updates) and any disconnect (slight or big) you have to re-enter the settings so you know the wifi had a hiccup...never had to touch it.

After the first couple days or so, the unit got stuck what seemed to be the boot up or something, I wasn't able to wifi back in to check what was happening. I had to pull the ethernet cable (master) to recycle power. This got me a little worried as I read a bad review about this happening to someone every month so I'm keeping my eye on this.

I haven't tried too hard yet, but it's not clear if I am able to login to the software via cable, vs. on wifi. I have the units on reserved IP's from the router so I'd like to be able to http in via the IP. Can I login this way instead?

Also, when I am on the fringes of one of the AP, so on the 2.4G band, but walk back near the AP so the signal is strong, it doesn't switch to 5G but stays on 2.4 unless I disconnect/re-connect SSID. I thought it would go back to the faster band if both signals are strong? It eventually goes back to 5G but seems like something needs to "recycle" the wifi.

Thanks for all the help!!

 

[Trip]

@magic - Glad to hear the CBW APs have been working well (mostly).

Management can be done by wire, by browsing over HTTPS to the Primary AP's IP address of its management MAC ID, or the IP of any secondary AP's management MAC, which will then HTTP-redirect to the Primary. That said, Cisco doesn't really provide a tool or easy instructions on how to do it, but I've found the easiest way is to just locate the management MAC ID and corresponding IP address in your router's DHCP assignment list. Do note, the management MAC ID is separate from the MAC ID of the wired NIC normally viewable from the LAN (ie. the one Cisco labels on the outside of the packaging), so you may have to do a bit of trial-and-error to find it, but you'll eventually get it.

TL;DR - If you haven't already, it's a pretty good idea to make some kind of static DHCP IP reservation scheme for your fixed network gear, so you can leave each component on DHCP for IP acquisition, but retain a central IP inventory.

As for wanting more 5Ghz favorability from your clients, in the end, I think you'll find the only way to really guarantee that is to run more APs in closer proximity, with settings tuned for higher density. You can preview this in CBW by enabling "Expert Mode" (double-ended arrow, top-right of the screen), then going to Advanced > RF Optimization, enabling RF Optimization, then moving the Client Density slider from Low to Medium (this table explains what your changing when you do that; "Typical" in the table = "Medium" in CBW, "Default" = "Low"), which will work to make 5Ghz comparatively more favorable than before, but not if you leave your physical setup as is -- then it will actually be worse, because the Medium setting actually lowers Tx power for a tighter broadcast per AP. Such a change is only able to help you increase 5Ghz performance once you increase AP count and decrease distance between APs. Make sense?

I know the above may be perplexing, but again, realize this is scalable wifi we're dealing with here; quite the opposite of the consumer paradigm of blast as much signal as possible from as few APs as you can get away with. We want lower-power, higher-density wifi broadcasts, which, presuming you design the layout properly, will actually end up giving you more capacity and performance in the end. You just need to put in the extra work and funds to get more APs deployed in a properly rebalanced layout.

Hope that helps again.

 

[magic]

@Trip, Ok, you were right again (no surprise there), going to higher density mode made the range worst but I got what I asked for which was switching to 5G when possible... I had to change it back to the Low setting, not a good trade off. No way around it, i need to add units.

I forget what I was looking at, but I did see another IP and I tried HTTP into it and I was able to wire into the unit management console. Yes, it wasn't obvious and a little hidden but I get it now after your explanation.

--------------

How does the CBW140AC compare to the CBW240AC? I'm considering boosting the fringes of some of my outdoor areas so I was considering using the CBW140, but of course they'd have to be placed indoor. I didn't see any outdoor units for these CBW series but I don't think the cost would worth the usage for these outdoor areas. I'm thinking, at least the CBW140 placed indoor to reach these fringe areas outdoors, would provide benefit of higher density mode inside and would not solely be dedicated for outside. If that didn't make sense, right now, all the indoor area's are in good shape, and I can roam through a good portion outdoors. But there are some areas outdoor, the audio call for example, would break up a bit.


Thanks again.

 

[magic]

Hey all,

If anyone is interested, but buy at your own risk...

Amazon is selling the Cisco CBW240AC, 3-pack for 263.87. That's an insane price considering I paid 165.00 each for my first 2. I received my 3 pack earlier this week and so far everything seems good (2 of 3 hooked up). They were brand new, and they work with my first 2. When you search the product, you'll find the higher priced 3-pack but on the side, you'll see the selection for the cheaper set.

The only thing I've been worried about is the lifetime warranty and being purchased from Amazon. I searched but could not find anything that says I'm not entitled to it. Anyway, just wanted to pass this on, but like i said, buy at your own risk. And let me know if you see something wrong with this.

 

[Haribo]

Hey magic,

How many APs do you have in your setup now and how many per floor? Are you still happy with the CBWs?

Also, thanks for the heads up on the Amazon 3-pack; I pulled the trigger and bought one, but it won't be delivered until 9/17. I actually tried to buy 2 at that price, but as soon as I tried to add the second pack the deal disappeared.

 

[Adooni]

id you already use EdgeROuter-4 why you are not consider UniFi AP?
https://store.ui.com/collections/unifi-network-wireless

 

[noah way]

++ for using older, cheaper equipment and having one model of device. Also having a second device is handy if one of them fails.

Mesh is just a glorified repeater with central management, IMO useless unless you are running a wide network.

I've had excellent results with high-gain antennas. Don't discount this option as an inexpensive boost. Data Alliance is a good source in the US.

I'm running a pair of 68Us. The only caveat is that I had to run an older Asus firmware on the repeater to get a drop-free connection. Later firmware including Merlin wasn't stable for some reason. I swapped routers, RMA'd one of them, tried a bazillion configurations and the only thing that worked was reverting to older firmware.

 

[magic]

Hey magic,

How many APs do you have in your setup now and how many per floor? Are you still happy with the CBWs?

Also, thanks for the heads up on the Amazon 3-pack; I pulled the trigger and bought one, but it won't be delivered until 9/17. I actually tried to buy 2 at that price, but as soon as I tried to add the second pack the deal disappeared.

Hi Haribo,

When did you purchase the 3-pack? I thought that deal was gone maybe a couple weeks after I posted. But good for you. I thought that's one helluva deal. Make sure to thoroughly check it and test it within the return period.

I have 5. I initially purchased 2 individually, and after tinkering with it, I was planning to buy 2 more but then I saw that deal which was a game changer for me. I actually needed the 5th.

My house layout is very bad for wifi and it's been difficult to get the roaming coverage everywhere. I have 2 on each floor for a 2 storey dwelling and 1 for a smaller detached dwelling. So my total property square footage is around 7500 sq ft and I can roam outside the house with 2 spots with slight hiccups.

Overall, I like these a lot. The gui and reboot is a little slow but I only used the TP-Link Omada prior so I don't have much comparison. But once you get it set, you shouldn't need to be messing with it and it's been stable.

The config options are a bit much for my brain but that's what you get when you enter the business grade realm of this type of products. I'm trying to tweak some of the data rate settings and I was asking on this forums for help.

Anyway, good luck and keep all us CBW users posted.

 

[magic]

id you already use EdgeROuter-4 why you are not consider UniFi AP?
https://store.ui.com/collections/unifi-network-wireless

Hi Adooni,

Honestly, I jumped into upgrading all my gear without doing research and understanding of the entire network as a whole. I jumped in just upgrading individual components based on what I thought was the best and best for me. I wanted to upgrade to AP's vs. consumer all-in-one-router since I had the network drops, but thru the research, I decided I wanted individual router and wifi. Again, focusing only on the individual component, I decided on the EdgeRouter. Then with Trip's suggestion, I decided on the Cisco CBW. The first attempt at AP's like I mentioned above, I tried the Omada but it wasn't cutting it for me. But to be fair, I didn't have enough AP's to give the Omada a fair shake. Besides, I didn't want to take a chance and go deeper into the Omada only to be half satisfied so I was willing to spend the extra money get something "better".

So now I have a mix mash of components and I will admit, all-in-one gui seems really nice and would help me out more since I'm a very novice at networking. I have ER4, Aruba 1930 and the CBW's.