BE88U replace AX88U with VLAN

[ZTHawk]

Hello,

I have a question regarding VLAN and a combination of Routers. All are (shall be) running Merlin FW.

My current setup is:
!!! AX88U !!! <=> Managed switch <=> AC68U (all connected via LAN)

The exclamation marks indicate the main router which is connected to a modem.

My desired setup:
AC68U <=> !!! BE88U !!! <=> Managed switch <=> AX88U (all connected via LAN)

I would like to have VLAN support for the new setup. In that setup the AX88U is a node only used as a WIFI node (no LAN clients will be connected).
I want to add clients to the managed switch (one or two specific ports) that shall be separated from the main network (wired ports for guests).

My questions:

1. Will this setup work as described using AiMesh?
2. Optional: Can I use a port of the node (AX88U) as a VLAN port (guest wired port)?
3. Does the AC68U AiMesh node (connected via LAN to BE88U) have a negative impact on the mesh?
4. I need guest WIFI on all nodes: Will there be any issues?
5. Is it possible to also have an IoT WIFI on all nodes?

Note:
WIFI 7 is less important. WIFI 6 on the other hand is important.
Changing layout how devices are connected is not possible (eg moving switch behind a node).

Thanks in advance.

 

[Tech9]

From accumulated over time user experience - you can have defined VLANs on the RT-BE88U (WebUI), Managed Switch LAN ports (manual configuration on the switch) and one Guest Network per band on the RT-AC68U and RT-AX88U (AiMesh, 3006 GNP -> 3004 GN). For user configurable VLANs to LAN/WLAN including Nodes you need all routers with VLAN + Guest Network Pro support, RT-BE86U in BE-class or better. Higher model number doesn't guarantee better. RT-BE92U for example doesn't have user configurable VLANs.

1. Sort of, see above
2. No
3. It may, read further
4. This will work, one per band
5. No

Remove the old RT-AC68U if not needed. More Wi-Fi may make your user experience worse. AiMesh doesn't scale well, uses all the same channels and no power control per device. See this post for more details.

 

[ZTHawk]

@Tech9 Thanks for the answers.
What do you mean by "RT-AC68U and RT-AX88U (AiMesh, 3006 GNP -> 3004 GN)."? AX88U does not have a 3006 version (or am I missing something?).
Just in case, I have the non PRO version of AX88U.

What if I change my scenario a bit:
2. Would it be possible if this node would be a BE88U too? (i am just curious, this node will most likely never get a wired client)
3. In fact the AC68U's location would be out of BE88U's WIFI range (they most likely will not have a common area of WIFI. Eg AC68U being Hawaii and BE88U being the US). Will it be still an issue?
5. Would this work if I had only BE88U?
5b) If NO, is it possible at all with ASUS devices that support Merlin FW?

 

[Tech9]

Older models running 3004 firmware don't support user configurable VLANs and Guest Network Pro. AiMesh compatibility to newer models running 3006 firmware is limited. In regards to Asuswrt-Merlin firmware and AiMesh - nothing is improved there, AiMesh is ASUS proprietary software. Most people just run stock Asuswrt on the Nodes and it widens the hardware choices at least.

2. Yes
3. No, distant node out of range won't interfere with the others
5. Yes

If you plan future network expansion, you have Ethernet infrastructure already and would like full control over LAN/WLAN - consider SMB hardware. The initial investment may come close to purchasing expensive home AIO routers and using only part of their functionality as APs. Home mesh systems offer limited control and tuning options and work best with 2-3 nodes/satellites/pods, etc.

I also have a bit different view about purchasing hardware, but this is me.

 

[Tech9]

<=> Managed switch <=>

Is the managed switch Gigabit of 2.5GbE? If you opt for 2x RT-BE88U routers with 2.5GbE ports it won't make much sense to connect them with Gigabit link. This upgrade may cost you more than initially estimated.

 

[ZTHawk]

Switch is only 1G. The question was just a theoretical, to know if the harware itself would support it.
2.5G+ switch will follow once really required.

What is SMB hardware?

 

[Tech9]

Small and Medium-sized Business, component system with gateway, switches, access points and usually network controller for central management. Something you can expand beyond consumer products, build and upgrade on stages when needed. Lower cost examples are Omada and UniFi.

 

[jzchen]

The AC router would affect the other two as an AiMesh node. Roaming requires that channel and bandwidth (also link properties now that I think about it) be the same among the nodes. You could simply set the AC router up as an Access Point to avoid this concern.

Also the managed switch should support LLDP. I found out the hard way that 2.5 Gb Managed switches may not support LLDP but full 10 Gb Managed switches tend to...

 

[Tech9]

Roaming requires that channel and bandwidth... be the same among the nodes.

No, it doesn't. One can have perfect roaming on different channels. Impossible to do with AiMesh (and other home mesh systems) because of the way it was designed to work.

The RT-AC68U in question, as explained by @ZTHawk, is outside of the range of the other two routers. I guess, it's part of AiMesh only because of visibility on the main router's WebUI.

 

[jzchen]

@Tech9 Not sure how setting up an AiMesh node with Ethernet is different than WiFi... The goal is understanding how AiMesh works not theoretical roaming on/to different channels...

 

[Tech9]

It works exactly the same as any other set of APs on the same channels, including from different vendors. The client decides where to connect. There is no difference in roaming between AiMesh and Router + AP Mode. You can actually make it better with Router + AP Mode since you have more tuning tools available per device.

If you have the chance to fine tune each one of your APs your wireless devices will roam just fine between your AiMesh, Deco and the multiple Repeaters you have around the house. The only difference will be in different roaming assistive technologies supported on different devices. All the same APs and controller managed is going to make it better, but it will still work with mix-and-match equipment.

 

[jzchen]

In AP mode the channel and bandwidth can be set different. In AiMesh they are the same, no?

EDIT- Hence the suggestion to set the AC68U to AP mode. The other two are free to make an AX network vs downgrade to match AC limitation, since roaming is not needed in this case anyways...

 

[Tech9]

In AP mode the channel and bandwidth can be set different. In AiMesh they are the same, no?

Correct, but see this:

3. In fact the AC68U's location would be out of BE88U's WIFI range (they most likely will not have a common area of WIFI. Eg AC68U being Hawaii and BE88U being the US). Will it be still an issue?

In this specific use case it doesn't matter.

 

[jzchen]

Correct, but see this:



In this specific use case it doesn't matter.

Ugh. We both understand but my job doesn't sell networking systems...

Once you add the AC68U as an AiMesh node, the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz SSIDs will match parameters among all the nodes. This effectively limits the other two to match...

If you add it as an Access Point then you can log into the AC68U, set the channels up with whatever SSID you want, a separate channel and bandwidth, (including it's main network). Since it will be connected to the managed switch it can be easily isolated, (I accidentally did so trying to create an AiMesh through mine).

The BE88U will then be limited solely by the capabilities of the AX88U, again in AiMesh...

 

[Tech9]

Once you add the AC68U as an AiMesh node, the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz SSIDs will match parameters among all the nodes. This effectively limits the other two to match...

Actually, no. Clients connected to RT-BE88U and RT-AX88U will not be limited to RT-AC68U capabilities. Common AX-class 2-stream client will sync at up to 866Mbps to RT-AC68U and up to 2400Mbps to RT-BE(AX)88U if 160MHz wide channel is enabled and the client supports it. I have tested this personally some time ago and recently @bennor confirmed it on newer firmware versions.

See this thread for details and when specific limitation comes at play:

Asus RT-BE88U - missing 160mhz channel bandwidth

Hi everyone, I just recently upgrade to the RT-BE88U from the RT-AX86U. I can't seem to see how to enable the 160mhz bandwidth. From the Asus app, i can see 160mhz / DFS enabled. In the router web ui I only have these options. Can someone please help point me in the right direction? Thanks...

www.snbforums.com

 

[jzchen]

BTW- I hope it's not over 100 m not sure what happens if you exceed this Ethernet cable length...

 

[Tech9]

Usially communication errors and disconnections happen. @ZTHawk will definitely notice.

 

[jzchen]

@Tech9 Not sure I'm convinced yet that it doesn't. PHY limit for 160 MHz is 4084 Mbps:

Is 6E Faster than 2.5 G Backhaul?

My AXE16000 and AXE11000 have been in WiFi backhaul since last night. I tried the optimize function after which I lost both the AXE11000 and RP-AX56 nodes. I had to delete them and readd them. I had to hard reset the RP-AX56 before it could be found and added back. Gonna try to add two...

rog-forum.asus.com

 

[Tech9]

The is no 4-stream clients. PHY limit for common 2-stream client is 1/2.

On your question about Wi-Fi 6E and 2.5GbE backhaul - in optimal conditions you can get about 1.7Gbps throughput to 2-stream AXE client on 160MHz wide channel. Backhaul 2.5GbE is more than enough unless you are expecting aggregate traffic LAN + WLAN exceeding 2.3Gbps. Wired connection (backhaul, uplink... whatever they call it) is better for reliability and spectrum utilization and has to be the preferred option.

 

[ZTHawk]

AC68U will have ~45m of Cat7/8 cable (with many concrete walls inbetween).
I would prefer AiMesh over AP Mode to dermaßen maintenance (eg when switching SSIDs or passwords). Ans yes, even if being far away, they shall be in the same main network.

What is LLDP and ehy is it important?

PS
Currently AX88U and AC68U are in a mesh and quite close to each other. I do notice differences in speed depending which device I am connected to (WIFI 6 vs 5).