Community backed router

[TheLostSwede]

Here it is, the board only:

520.12US $ 5% OFF|Wifi 6 Ipq8072 Dual Band Full Gigabit Wireless Router Supports M2 5g Module U8072-01 - Instrument Parts & Accessories - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

It's on sale, -8% original price. Offers me additional $3.50 coupon.

I very much doubt that's the same board.
Some scammer is claiming they sell the router on there as well, except they just ripped off a news post on a different site about the router and used that as their text for selling it.

As I said, I haven't even contacted the manufacturer as yet, since I wanted to see if there was any interest at all to start with, which I guess there isn't, so there's no point even discussing this further.

 

[anotherengineer]

I very much doubt that's the same board.
Some scammer is claiming they sell the router on there as well, except they just ripped off a news post on a different site about the router and used that as their text for selling it.

As I said, I haven't even contacted the manufacturer as yet, since I wanted to see if there was any interest at all to start with, which I guess there isn't, so there's no point even discussing this further.

Indeed. I would like to see a review by some of the experts here to see how "good" it really is.

 

[Tech Junky]

it's interesting but, the board is over priced and by the time you wrap things up and deliver the final product i have a feeling it would be outdated already.

There's a market for it though if you have the infrastructure to do it in a timely manner. Being behind the eight ball in generational advances devalues the effort put into the design / build phase.

It's kind of like having an AX210 Intel cad that does 6E and nothing to connect to for over a year after installing the client card. Just now we're seeing 6E routers / APs coming to market and everyone is already babbling about WIFI7.

Search results for: '802.11ax'

524wifi.com home of data tranfer solutions

www.524wifi.com

Now, if you could get a seat at the table for 7 and prep for the next release I think there might be more viability to this sort of project unless prices drop considerably on the components needed to put together a finished product. Right now the average 802.11ax box off the shelf seems to hover in the $500 range though adding the SFP component / 10GE option could be a draw for a premium offering w/o the sticker shock of other vendors.

I doubt the average consumer though is looking for the high spec options being considered in the OP. Power users and network nerds being the niche you would be catering to might not be enough to hit a MOQ for decent pricing.

 

[anotherengineer]

I wanted to gauge the interest of the community here, to see if there are enough people that would want to get involved in a project. I’ve noticed a lot of people here are looking for routers that have features that you normally don’t find from the major consumer router makers, some of them hardware based, some of them software based.

I recently came across what should be a very high-end router, based on the QCA IPQ8072A SoC, with two 10Gbps ports, 1GB of RAM and even an M.2 slot for an optional 5G modem.
The router is apparently intended as a carrier device by the company that makes it and I have in all fairness not approached them as yet, since I wanted to see if there was any interest from the community here to try and source this product, get a “custom” OS up and running on it and have it supported by the community here or at least get it supported by OpenWRT/DD-WRT if possible.

View attachment 38504

I obviously don’t know the pricing, but I would guess it would be cheaper than some of the branded routers in the market based on the same SoC. Normally the MoQ for something like this is one to 10k units, so that might be another issue. On top of that, there’s no word on what kind of state the software support is in, but as I have worked for a router manufacturer in the past, I do at least know some people that could get it to a fully working state, for a cost.

Obviously this is just a crazy idea of mine at this point, but with enough interest, it could be pulled off. I know not everyone is keen on OpenWRT as an OS, but it’s apparently not a huge effort to make a custom UI for it and the people I have worked with in the past, have already done it for different products. The main advantage of going down the OpenWRT route is that there will be regular updates that wouldn’t require a huge effort for a project like this. Other hardware can also be considered if price is a more important factor to those interested and I’m happy to look for alternatives, if that would prove to be a more viable route.

So please, thoughts, comments, feedback on my crazy idea.

Yep. A bit crazy lol. But anyway for feedback. I am currently looking at Ax86u as possible next upgrade (~$350 cad). One thing that I would like would be at least a 5Gb switch in the router. I have a NAS with hdd, it would be nice one day to put in ssds but no point if bottle necked by a 1Gb network. After that like other have said it’s the software would be the next thing (as long as it isn’t hampered by low end hardware). I could see myself spending up to $500cad on something that would last 10yrs and get 10 yrs of support with its stable and reliable. And there will be people that say as if, but my n66u is still running stable and reliable *knock on wood* for about 10 years for a cost of $100 cad albeit low end by today’s standards but still doing it’s intended job fine.

 

[Tech Junky]

@anotherengineer

If you want 5GE you're looking at either DIY or expensive switches to get there. I put a 4-port 5GE card into my DIY setup for $200 for this purpose of the NAS portion being sped up to not be a bottleneck. Running a Raid 10 4 x 8TB spinners and get close to 500MB/s out of it wired.

When it comes to the OP though making something from pieces it's going to be like trying to get a 5G Iphone 14 priced at a PIxel 3 and perform like a GS22 Ultra. SFP's keep the price down since the costs moves to the modules you insert for your customized speed application at $30-$60/port. Being able to customize a router to your desires though comes at a price in the prepackaged form.

 

[RMerlin]

I wonder if 5 Gb has any real future tho. 2.5 Gb is barely starting to appear in mainstream product, so I wouldn`t be surprised if the next jump might be direct to 10 Gb, as these will continue to drop down in price while 2.5G gains market share.

 

[L&LD]

I believe greater than 1GbE but less than 10GbE is the sweet spot and will be for a long time. For no other reason than power usage.

The next jump will be to 5GbE (at the same power levels as 1GbE), long before 10GbE becomes ubiquitous.

 

[sfx2000]

I wonder if 5 Gb has any real future tho. 2.5 Gb is barely starting to appear in mainstream product, so I wouldn`t be surprised if the next jump might be direct to 10 Gb, as these will continue to drop down in price while 2.5G gains market share.

I tend to agree - 10G is likely the next step over copper after 2.5 gigabit

 

[anotherengineer]

I tend to agree - 10G is likely the next step over copper after 2.5 gigabit

That would be nice but who knows. It’s good marvel and others are working on it because I think Intel would like to keep 10 to enterprise for those nice margins. 5g on wired would be nice for home it’s all about raid 1 sata ssd can do. But ya if 10 isn’t much difference in terms of cost than sure great for consumers.

 

[Tech Junky]

2.5 & 5 offer options if you don't want to rewire to Cat6+ cabling everywhere and that's the draw to the middle ground speeds. Also, port density at 10GE gets expensive when you factor in Ethernet vs Fiber / end user configurations. In addition we're seeing more 2.5 / 5 options on the AP port side that offer flexibility as well tying back to the core switch elements. One issue though is that a single AX client can't use the max speeds due to innovation hurdles limiting them to a max of 1.3-1.5gbps even when they link up @ 2400mbps. 6E has the same limitation except for 6ghz opens up 7 additional 160mhz lanes to be used over the 2 x 160mhz lanes in 5ghz.

As for intel hoarding things it's evident in the client side at least being the only option for 6E adapters on the client side. If RTL / QCSA based options came to market there's more ability to homebrew the 6/6E AP based on a client card using hostapd. This also filters into the OEM router spectrum of being able to have competition in HW to develop new products at lower prices. All of these devices use the same base hostapd in the backend to make their products work.

Splitting off the WIFI from wired makes it more feasible to get people off legacy tech and into the new / more efficient technologies.

 

[TheLostSwede]

I wonder if 5 Gb has any real future tho. 2.5 Gb is barely starting to appear in mainstream product, so I wouldn`t be surprised if the next jump might be direct to 10 Gb, as these will continue to drop down in price while 2.5G gains market share.

2.5 Gbps is very popular when it comes to motherboards and a lot of other PC related devices and even several embedded products.
However, it doesn't seem to be all that popular with the router makers as yet, possibly because of a lack of suitable interfaces on most router SoCs.
I think 2.5 Gbps will keep gaining popularity, especially as switching ICs come down in price for 2.5 Gbps, as the power usage and heat output is almost on par with 1 Gbps hardware, whereas as anything 10 Gbps requires "massive" heatsinks. Then there's cost difference, where 2.5 Gbps Ethernet controllers are only twice that of a 1 Gbps controller, but a 10 Gbps controller costs 30-40 times as much.
As such, I think it'll be years before it becomes a consumer standard, unfortunately.

5 Gbps isn't likely to ever gain any particular market adaptation imho.

 

[RMerlin]

2.5 Gbps is very popular when it comes to motherboards and a lot of other PC related devices and even several embedded products.
However, it doesn't seem to be all that popular with the router makers as yet, possibly because of a lack of suitable interfaces on most router SoCs.

Motherboards started to offer it more commonly about a year ago. Other devices are still lagging behind. Asus has started offering it on their routers about a year ago as well (which makes sense, as they sell the motherboards to connect with them).

The switch market started to become reasonable also in the past year, with multi 2.5 Gbps port switches appearing in the $200 price range. So overall, 2021 was the year that 2.5 Gbps started to become a potential option for the regular market.

One area that disappoints me are in the NAS market. QNAP and Asustor started offering it, however Synology (one of the big vendors alongside QNAP) still doesn't have a single SOHO NAS that offers 2.5 Gbps AFAIK. Sure, a 2.5 Gbps dongle is an option (I actually did some tests last week on my Asustor using a Pluggable dongle - fun fact, my laptop with 160 MHz wifi channels was able to push 210 MB/s to the NAS over wifi), but I'm not sure I would trust a USB dongle hooked to a NAS and running 24/7...

So yeah, I see 2.5 Gbps as the successor to 1 GBps, I doubt we'll see much 5 Gbps market as 10 Gbps will continue to drop in price, and possible become a reasonable option in 3-5 years from now.

 

[Clark Griswald]

Trendnet 8-port 2.5Gbps switch (This is only an example)
Currently my house is wired with Cat5e, so I would like to add this (or similar) to my network, when I upgrade to a new router. Although as RMerlin pointed out, my Synology NAS is lacking in speed, and I also wouldn't trust a usb dongle.

 

[Tech Junky]

Synology NAS is lacking in speed.

Easy upgrade w/ either USB or NIC.

I put a QNAP 4-port 5GE in my server and it works well. Sizing the network for the throughput + overhead is more ideal than throwing 10GE at it for extra bandwidth. Weighing what the clients can do at a decent price makes a difference in the decision on the speed and factoring in cabling vs re-cabling. For $200 I bumped from 1GE/4-port to five times the speed at 4X the cost for the card but, I bought the 1GE on ebay so, new vs new it probably would have been about the same price.

Accessories Selector | Compare and find your perfect Accessory

QNAP’s comprehensive range of PCIe cards and accessories allows users to upgrade core NAS/PC functionality to meet diverse needs and to maximize work efficiency and productivity.

www.qnap.com

I also used their AC2600 to host an AP for a couple of years prior to AX being released.

The issue I see with 5GE right now is the prices being a bit higher unless you're doing a smaller LAN

- $400 for 4 ports via Netgear - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075Q5C3Z4/?tag=snbforums-20
- $800 for 8 ports via Zyxel - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087XD1J88/?tag=snbforums-20

Back to the 5GE 4-port @ $200 in a PC - $50/port isn't quite as bad as the switches above @ $100/port and on the client side it's only a small bump in price from 2.5 >> 5GE vs dealing with a TB3 10GE adapter at 5-6X the cost.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08977K9D2/?tag=snbforums-20 - $70 5GE
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08979LXJK/?tag=snbforums-20 - $35 2.5GE

It's a matter of time before 5GE options come down in price. The fact that OEM's are using the higher 10GE NBASE-T chip instead of going with the 5/2.5/1GE option means the prices are still inflated unlike the 2.5GE 8-port switch being $170 (75% less).

Now appealing to the masses with tons of ports built into the router like the traditional junk we have today is one approach but, hitting a sweet spot around the SMB market with limited ports but at higher bandwidth using Cat5E / Cat6 should draw some appeal from them. Of course if they have the switch in place density doesn't matter quite as much but, having the option to go 2.5 / 5 / 10 instead of being stuck at a higher or lower speed than what's possible on either end will make a difference.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Motherboards started to offer it more commonly about a year ago. Other devices are still lagging behind. Asus has started offering it on their routers about a year ago as well (which makes sense, as they sell the motherboards to connect with them).

The switch market started to become reasonable also in the past year, with multi 2.5 Gbps port switches appearing in the $200 price range. So overall, 2021 was the year that 2.5 Gbps started to become a potential option for the regular market.

One area that disappoints me are in the NAS market. QNAP and Asustor started offering it, however Synology (one of the big vendors alongside QNAP) still doesn't have a single SOHO NAS that offers 2.5 Gbps AFAIK. Sure, a 2.5 Gbps dongle is an option (I actually did some tests last week on my Asustor using a Pluggable dongle - fun fact, my laptop with 160 MHz wifi channels was able to push 210 MB/s to the NAS over wifi), but I'm not sure I would trust a USB dongle hooked to a NAS and running 24/7...

So yeah, I see 2.5 Gbps as the successor to 1 GBps, I doubt we'll see much 5 Gbps market as 10 Gbps will continue to drop in price, and possible become a reasonable option in 3-5 years from now.

Looks like Broadcom's next WiFi 7 platform will do 10 and 2.5 Gbps.

Broadcom Launches its First WiFi 7 Chipsets and corresponding SoC

It appears that 2022 might be the year WiFi 7, or 802.11be as it's also known, launches, despite the fact that the specification isn't set to be ratified until 2024. Broadcom has just unveiled its first set of WiFi 7 radios, as well as accompanying SoC and it looks like the new hardware will...

www.techpowerup.com

You can get a 5-port switch for well under $150 now and Trendnet even has an 8-port switch for $180.
10 Gbps on the other hand has barely moved, although TP-Link has a passive 5-port switch now that is under $400 locally for me.

So yes, I think we're on the same page here pretty much, but 10 Gbps might come sooner than I expected, depending on what Broadcom wants for their new router platform, with an extra 10 Gbps PHY included.

 

[RMerlin]

Looks like Broadcom's next WiFi 7 platform will do 10 and 2.5 Gbps.

Anandtech had an excellent article earlier today which also includes block diagrams:

Broadcom Launches Wi-Fi 7 Portfolio for Access Points and Client Devices

www.anandtech.com

You can get a 5-port switch for well under $150 now and Trendnet even has an 8-port switch for $180.

I`ve been monitoring the pricing on a Trendnet and a TP-Link switch on Amazon (both 8 ports, which is what I would need). They are around 200-230$ CAD. They're slowly getting there now.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Anandtech had an excellent article earlier today which also includes block diagrams:

So did my article, which apparently wasn't as excellent
Broadcom included them in the basic datasheet for the SoC.

I`ve been monitoring the pricing on a Trendnet and a TP-Link switch on Amazon (both 8 ports, which is what I would need). They are around 200-230$ CAD. They're slowly getting there now.

I can get a QNAP or Zyxel 5-port 2.5 Gbps switch for less than the equivalent of $125 locally. Zyxel also offers an 8-port version for around the same price as the Trendnet 8-port one goes for in the US.

 

[BreakingDad]

The SNB Mk I Prototype Wifi 7 Mesh System, With Merlin 2022 Custom "Chetland" Firmware

Base Unit

Mesh Repeaters

FCC Approved and of course with 1000 Custom Skins, on integral 2tb ssd.

SNB Mk I - "The router to end all routers"



Yes I have too much time on my hands.

 

[anotherengineer]

So did my article, which apparently wasn't as excellent
Broadcom included them in the basic datasheet for the SoC.

I can get a QNAP or Zyxel 5-port 2.5 Gbps switch for less than the equivalent of $125 locally. Zyxel also offers an 8-port version for around the same price as the Trendnet 8-port one goes for in the US.

Lol. I read your article on TPU. My handle there is mechtech

sort of disappointing in a way
I was hoping for 4x-8x 10Gbe LAN

 

[Clark Griswald]

The SNB Mk I Prototype Wifi 7 Mesh System, With Merlin 2022 Custom "Chetland" Firmware

Base Unit

View attachment 40793


Mesh Repeaters

View attachment 40794


FCC Approved and of course with 1000 Custom Skins, on integral 2tb ssd.

SNB Mk I - "The router to end all routers"



Yes I have too much time on my hands.

With the discoloration of the AP "cans", I'm just waiting for @shabbs to start a thread about this router/AP temps